Number of Balls

[Superllama12]

My team has been searching for the total number of balls throughout the rules and can't find it. Is it twelve (up to two balls per bot at the start) or are more added later? Thanks!

[tim-tim]

One of the rules clarifies it, I forgot which one off hand. There are balls on the ramps as well, making a total of 18 balls in play.

[Red2486]

My team has been looking for it too, but unfortunetly have not be able to find it any where. We are assuming 12 for the time being.

[Superllama12]

If anyone happens upon the rule, please let us know, one of our people who have gone over the rules think that the balls don't start on the center ramp. Do you at least remember which of the five manual sections it was in? Thanks!

[Austin2046]

G05 "Each Bridge will be preset with two Basketballs. Basketballs allotted to Robots that are not used, will be preset on the Coopertition Bridge. Violation: Match will not start until the situation is corrected"

so that's 2 balls per robot = 12, plus 2 balls per bridge = total of 18 balls.

[Sean M]

I agree with Austin; our conclusion was 18 balls.

The rules are, however, vague on what counts as each robot starting with a ball (can you just put it on top of a flat part of your robot, for example?).

[RoboBawler]

From what I read, there are a max of 2 balls in each robot at the start and 2 balls on each of the alliance ramps making a total of 16. If there aren't 2 balls in each robot, the balls that remain go on the center ramp.

[Sean M]

RoboBawler,

There are two on each BRIDGE, not just alliance bridge. See [G05].

[Superllama12]

Aha! 16 balls total. Rule [G05]:

Each Bridge will be preset with two Basketballs. Basketballs allotted to Robots that are not used, will be preset on
the Coopertition Bridge.

So each robot will have up to two balls, and two more will be placed on each the red and blue bridges. If any robot wants to have less than two balls, the rest will go on the center/Coopertition bridge. Thanks for all the comments!

[Sean M]

See that the Coopertition bridge gets two to start with, PLUS additional, unplaced balls. So 18.

[Superllama12]

I think that there's a distinction between the alliance and coopertition bridges, and none naturally start on the Coopertition bridge. I talked with our rules analyzer, who indicated that it seems like 16 because of this distinction between the bridges.

[Sean M]

But the Coopertition Bridge IS a Bridge, and [G05] specifically states that "Each Bridge will be present with two basketballs."

Look at the explanation of [G06], in which it says that Bridges are illuminated if balanced (which implies this includes the Coopertition Bridge is, as expected, a Bridge.).

I agree it is vague, as there aren't any definitions this year, but it's common sense that a Coopertition Bridge is a Bridge, but is different from Alliance Bridges. I believe the GDC may have overlooked clarifying this. Reference [G14]. It is unlikely that ONLY refers to Alliance Bridges.

In other places, they specifically state Alliance Bridge [G25], or Coopertition Bridge [G41], if there is a specific bridge.

[Karibou]

But the Coopertition Bridge IS a Bridge, and [G05] specifically states that "Each Bridge will be present with two basketballs."

Look at the explanation of [G06], in which it says that Bridges are illuminated if balanced (which implies this includes the Coopertition Bridge is, as expected, a Bridge.).

I agree it is vague, as there aren't any definitions this year, but it's common sense that a Coopertition Bridge is a Bridge, but is different from Alliance Bridges. I believe the GDC may have overlooked clarifying this. Reference [G14]. It is unlikely that ONLY refers to Alliance Bridges.
I would agree with this. If you look everywhere else in the rules, if they mean a particular bridge, they specify which bridge the rule applies to.

However, this is a question that we won't be able to answer for sure until the Q&A opens.

[Ninja_Bait]

The animation has 6 balls, two on each bridge.

[StealthMentor]

I do not see anywhere in the rules that says there are, or are not any balls already in the human station either. So there could be more.

[Grim Tuesday]

The animation has 6 balls, two on each bridge.

Animation is not always a legitimate source.

[Sean M]

I do not see anywhere in the rules that says there are, or are not any balls already in the human station either. So there could be more.

Good point.

[GaryVoshol]

I do not see anywhere in the rules that says there are, or are not any balls already in the human station either. So there could be more.

It would take a rule change for there to be more. There is no provision anywhere else in the rules that I have seen for allocating more balls. 18 total, that's all she wrote.

[RoboMaster]

Ok, the official rules need to be quoted here. There's too much confusion with bridges and alliance bridges and the animation. Please, read the manual.

I believe there are only two rules that relate.

[G01]
When placed on the Court, each Robot must be in compliance with all Robot rules, may not exceed 60 in. tall, and have all appendages within its Frame Perimeter. The Robot must be in contact with its Key, and may contain up to two Basketballs.

[G05]
Each Bridge will be preset with two Basketballs. Basketballs allotted to Robots that are not used, will be preset on the Coopertition Bridge.

2 balls x 6 robots
plus
2 balls x 3 Bridges
=18 total

Extras not used by the robots will simply be added to the middle Coopertition Bridge instead.

This total excludes any that the human players might have. I believe there are no rules on that, so therefore the only balls available at the beginning are the ones mentioned by the above two rules. So, human players don't get any balls at the beginning.

[George Nishimura]

I'm guess this will be cleared up straight away in a Q&A/Update.

But doesn't the rule mean that it's possible that the Coopertition Bridge will have 14 balls on it? I feel sorry for the refs :P.

Also, on the topic of ball setting, is there a rule on what counts as being 'used by the robots' (ie, can it be like last year and have the balls lying next to/touching the bumper so other robots can pick them up?

[nocapitals]

I'm guess this will be cleared up straight away in a Q&A/Update.

But doesn't the rule mean that it's possible that the Coopertition Bridge will have 14 balls on it? I feel sorry for the refs :P.

Note to self: Program an 18 ball autonomous mode.

[GaryVoshol]

... what counts as being 'used by the robots' (ie, can it be like last year and have the balls lying next to/touching the bumper so other robots can pick them up?

Rule [G01] that was quoted says the robots must "contain" up to 2 balls. Something to be clarified by the GDC, but I would say on the floor touching the bumper isn't "contained".

[seg9585]

Assuming there are 18 balls total:

Suppose an alliance decided to claim possession of as many balls as possible to prevent the other team from scoring.
Per the rules, each Inbounder may hold up to 2 balls. Also, each robot may hold up to 3 balls. No extra balls may be left in the Corral.

2 * 3 Inbounders + 3 * 3 Robots = 15 balls taken out of play from other team.
So, only 3 balls are now in play for the opposing team.

Makes for a pretty low scoring match.

[Tomatosoup]

Assuming there are 18 balls total:

Suppose an alliance decided to claim possession of as many balls as possible to prevent the other team from scoring.
Per the rules, each Inbounder may hold up to 2 balls. Also, each robot may hold up to 3 balls. No extra balls may be left in the Corral.

2 * 3 Inbounders + 3 * 3 Robots = 15 balls taken out of play from other team.
So, only 3 balls are now in play for the opposing team.

Makes for a pretty low scoring match.

That's like suggesting that last year, people might not put any tubes into play. You'd have to be pretty confident in your end game bonus abilities. Plus, ranking is based partially on score, a team using that strategy, would rank below a team that won just as many matches, but played the intended way.

[Dr Theta]

That's like suggesting that last year, people might not put any tubes into play. You'd have to be pretty confident in your end game bonus abilities. Plus, ranking is based partially on score, a team using that strategy, would rank below a team that won just as many matches, but played the intended way.
Ranking this year is based off of :
1st order sort
Qualification Score (W-L-T)
2nd order sort
Cumulative sum of Hybrid Hoop points
3rd order sort
Cumulative sum of Bridge points
4th order sort
Cumulative sum of Teleop Hoop points
5th order sort
Random sorting by the FMS

[tim-tim]

Ranking this year is based off of :
1st order sort
Qualification Score (W-L-T)
2nd order sort
Cumulative sum of Hybrid Hoop points
3rd order sort
Cumulative sum of Bridge points
4th order sort
Cumulative sum of Teleop Hoop points
5th order sort
Random sorting by the FMS

The 1st order sort is more than just (W-L-T). It also adds the Coopertition points awarded to teams that have robots on their alliance on the center/neutral bridge at the end of the match.

In the past a win earned 2 points, a tie 1 point and a lose resulted in 0 points received. In addition to these points, 2 points are awarded to each alliance if the robots from each alliance are balanced on the center bridge and 1 point if two robots are on the bridge, but not balanced.

So effectively, you can win and earn 2, 3, or even 4 points. Similarly you can lose and earn 0, 1, or even 2 points.

[Ninja_Bait]

Animation is not always a legitimate source.

Just pointing it out, I have my own reservations on the matter.

[Grim Tuesday]

The 1st order sort is more than just (W-L-T). It also adds the Coopertition points awarded to teams that have robots on their alliance on the center/neutral bridge at the end of the match.

In the past a win earned 2 points, a tie 1 point and a lose resulted in 0 points received. In addition to these points, 2 points are awarded to each alliance if the robots from each alliance are balanced on the center bridge and 1 point if two robots are on the bridge, but not balanced.

So effectively, you can win and earn 2, 3, or even 4 points. Similarly you can lose and earn 0, 1, or even 2 points.

Your score during the match, however, is only a 4th tie-breaker, which doesn't matter much.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Assuming there are 18 balls total:

Suppose an alliance decided to claim possession of as many balls as possible to prevent the other team from scoring.
Per the rules, each Inbounder may hold up to 2 balls. Also, each robot may hold up to 3 balls. No extra balls may be left in the Corral.

2 * 3 Inbounders + 3 * 3 Robots = 15 balls taken out of play from other team.
So, only 3 balls are now in play for the opposing team.

Makes for a pretty low scoring match.

If the 3 inbounders each have 2 balls then as soon as another ball is scored they will be in violation of <G31>, even if an inbounder throws one into the field, another inbounder cannot 'immediately remove' a ball from the corral since he'll have 2 in his possession.


[G31] Only Inbounders may contact Basketballs; each Inbounder may hold a maximum of two Basketballs. During Teleop, Inbounders must remove Basketballs from the Corral immediately upon arrival. All Basketballs in the Alliance Station must be held by Inbounders once removed from the Corral.
Violation: Foul

[qzrrbz]

We definitely need an operational definition of "immediately" here.

[goffchris]

An autonomous task might be to run over and tip the coopertition bridge balls to your side...