View Full Version : Human player making baskets
I was going through videos on youtube and came across the one below, at around 0:40 it says "notice there is no netting above the inbound station, allowing for last minute, hail-mary shots. From what I understood from reading the rules that if a human player makes it, it does not count, but from this video, it sounds like you can. What do you guys think?
I think this is an official FIRST video as its from FRCTeamsGlobal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaFiCbZLPRY&feature=autoplay&list=UUHA7zyPRS3VPDvl4ehss-zw&lf=plcp&playnext=3
Thanks!
I read nothing in the rules that said the inbounders could not score.
Steven Donow
07-01-2012, 22:54
There's nothing in the rules yet about it, so if an update doesn't say otherwise, I'd say it's allowed.
Of course, you have to keep in mind <G32>
[G32]
During Teleop, Inbounders may enter Basketballs back onto the Court by:
passing though the Inbound Slots at any time;
throwing over the Inbound Station during the final 30 seconds of Teleop.
Violation: Foul
Emphasis mine
Hmm, I must of mis-read the rules. Thank you!
[G32] During Teleop, Inbounders may enter Basketballs back onto the Court by:
a) passing though the Inbound Slots at any time;
b) throwing over the Inbound Station during the final 30 seconds of Teleop.
Violation: Foul
There's nothing in the rules yet about it, so if an update doesn't say otherwise, I'd say it's allowed.
I doubt a team update will come out disallowing that. Two reasons:
1. I feel this is something the GDC would've thought about
2. From Field Tour #2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaFiCbZLPRY&feature=related):
"At the other end of the Alliance Station is the Inbound Slot. It was designed for bounce passes when inbounding game pieces. Notice too that there's no netting above the inbound station. This should make it a little easier for last second hail mary shots.
Emphasis mine.
-Duke
considering how difficult it will be to score from back there, I would expect that the flurry of hoarded balls from both sides will re-energize the game by leaving more on the floor from about 29 sec left to about 10 sec left when bots go for the ramps.
Scoring by people is unlikely but even humans failing can lead to a robot getting the ball fast and scoring. In fact, its possible that if both teams score balls like this (and the inbounders then get more to throw) there may be a second flurry of scoring with just a few seconds left by robots who can score more by shooting then by balancing.
Our team was also thinking about that...though to put it in perspective, on a High School regulation basketball court, half court line is at 42 feet...The FRC field is 54 feet, not including the wall or how far away the inbounder is standing from said wall.
considering how difficult it will be to score from back there, I would expect that the flurry of hoarded balls from both sides will re-energize the game by leaving more on the floor from about 29 sec left to about 10 sec left when bots go for the ramps.
Keep in mind rule G31
[G31]
Only Inbounders may contact Basketballs; each Inbounder may hold a maximum of two Basketballs. During Teleop, Inbounders must remove Basketballs from the Corral immediately upon arrival. All Basketballs in the Alliance Station must be held by Inbounders once removed from the Corral.
Violation: Foul
Hoarding balls is going to be a little difficult.
Keep in mind rule G31
[G31]
Only Inbounders may contact Basketballs; each Inbounder may hold a maximum of two Basketballs. During Teleop, Inbounders must remove Basketballs from the Corral immediately upon arrival. All Basketballs in the Alliance Station must be held by Inbounders once removed from the Corral.
Violation: Foul
Hoarding balls is going to be a little difficult.
but wouldn't you expect them to hold some? even if its only 3 or 4 from each side, there will be balls thrown at the end, and the vast majority of these will not score, but will be picked up by robots on either side. I would want to make sure my robot was on the scoring side at the 31 second mark.
pyroslev
12-01-2012, 11:33
In 2007, witnessed more than on kid throw those tubes for the hail mary. Any time there is something a player can throw, it flies. I tell any potential inbounder that if they can make that hail mary shot with the heat on, dinner's on me. Something like that ought to also give the top eight something else to consider when making alliance choices.
edit: You'll see some teams hold the max number and get tripped up with a foul. I think those will be gone within the first dozen matches only to come back and occur in the finals.
mdiradoorian
12-01-2012, 11:58
It is possible to make it from 54' because the human players on our team are practicing and have made quite a few shots between the highest basket and the two middle ones.
Mr. Pockets
12-01-2012, 12:35
Throwing a foam ball 54' while keeping it at a height where it can still land in one of the baskets will be quite a feat indeed. Still could see it happening, gonna bring this up to our strategy head for picking a human player.
mdiradoorian
12-01-2012, 16:01
Throwing a foam ball 54' while keeping it at a height where it can still land in one of the baskets will be quite a feat indeed. Still could see it happening, gonna bring this up to our strategy head for picking a human player.
A bit further than that because remember you are behind the 6' wall
ratdude747
12-01-2012, 17:43
Also keep in mind that these balls are smaller, and therefore easier to score with than a regulation men's or women's basketball.
I think a human player could make said basket.
mdiradoorian
12-01-2012, 20:22
Also keep in mind that these balls are smaller, and therefore easier to score with than a regulation men's or women's basketball.
I think a human player could make said basket.
They could make a basket but it is definitly not easier to make it than a regulation size basketball because it weights a lot less and also the pressure at the competition.
mercer13
27-02-2012, 15:46
They could make a basket but it is definitly not easier to make it than a regulation size basketball because it weights a lot less and also the pressure at the competition.
As from my knowledge of being on the Girls high school basketball team and the human player it is easier to throw the FIRST basketball, than a regulation size girls ball.
I saw a few baskets and near misses at the week zero I attended, and I by no means saw all the matches.
It can and will happen. I'm not sure if it will swing too many matches, but the potential exists. I'd have been happier if it wasn't allowed. My concern is less that it will swing matches and more that in the last 30 seconds there will be a lot of stuff going on- bridges rocking back and forth and robots taking last shots. Adding a flurry of human player shots to the mix seems like it made things even more confusing.
I guess it's a fairly minor complaint in what is otherwise shaping up to be a pretty good game. Time will tell...
Good thread revival. I was skeptical at first, but our guys make shots all the time. It's not the majority, but it's enough to see a couple during breaks. Definitely more than could be made with a regulation ball..
They could make a basket but it is definitly not easier to make it than a regulation size basketball because it weights a lot less and also the pressure at the competition.No offense meant, but isn't basketball also a high-pressure competition?
mercer13
27-02-2012, 20:00
Good thread revival. I was skeptical at first, but our guys make shots all the time. It's not the majority, but it's enough to see a couple during breaks. Definitely more than could be made with a regulation ball..
No offense meant, but isn't basketball also a high-pressure competition?
yes basketball is a high-pressure competition
GilaMonsterAlex
27-02-2012, 21:51
At the very least you got to go for it. Worst case you get a foul, otherwise you miss and the ball is closer to the alliance.
At the very least you got to go for it. Worst case you get a foul, otherwise you miss and the ball is closer to the alliance.Why do you think there's a possibility of a foul?
The other part is important, though; even if you don't get it in the basket, throwing a ball to the other side of the field could give your robot enough time to pick it up and score, while coming back probably wouldn't be possible in under 30 seconds.
GilaMonsterAlex
28-02-2012, 14:51
Well I was thinking of this rule:
[G13]
Basketballs may not be intentionally placed out of bounds. Basketballs that inadvertently exit the Court will be placed back on the Court approximately at the point of exit, at the earliest safe opportunity, by Court staff.
Violation: Foul
Worst case, you launch it over the other end or side of the Arena and the Ref calls you on it. It depends on the interpretation.
DampRobot
28-02-2012, 15:29
Keep in mind, there is a limited number of balls. Teams will need to determine if their human player or their robot can make more shots. This is not like last year, when tubes were esentially unlimited and the human players threw without a stop.
PAR_WIG1350
28-02-2012, 17:28
Keep in mind, there is a limited number of balls. Teams will need to determine if their human player or their robot can make more shots. This is not like last year, when tubes were esentially unlimited and the human players threw without a stop.
Actually quite the opposite is true. Last year each HP only had 3 sets of tubes to throw and there was no way to get them back once they were on the field. This year, the balls cycle through continuously so they can be returned, in theory, an unlimited number of times.
Well I was thinking of this rule:
[G13]
Basketballs may not be intentionally placed out of bounds. Basketballs that inadvertently exit the Court will be placed back on the Court approximately at the point of exit, at the earliest safe opportunity, by Court staff.
Violation: Foul
Worst case, you launch it over the other end or side of the Arena and the Ref calls you on it. It depends on the interpretation.I think if it was obvious that you were trying to score, the refs would not judge that you were "intentionally" shooting them out of bounds unless you were really, really bad...:p
GilaMonsterAlex
28-02-2012, 22:07
I think if it was obvious that you were trying to score, the refs would not judge that you were "intentionally" shooting them out of bounds unless you were really, really bad...:p
That's why I said worst case...I hope no one's that bad.
Worst case, you launch it over the other end or side of the Arena and the Ref calls you on it. It depends on the interpretation.This is a perennial rule (regardless of game piece), and I've never called, seen it called, or had it called on me in this fashion. (And some people really are that bad...sometimes they're us.) Maybe someone else has had a different experience?
Keep in mind, there is a limited number of balls. Teams will need to determine if their human player or their robot can make more shots. This is not like last year, when tubes were esentially unlimited and the human players threw without a stop.Who threw non-stop in 2011? Granted, there are some situations in which it was strategically advantageous (e.g. overwhelming scoring capacity), but it was hardly a usual benefit. Sure there were twice the number of tubes, but they didn't cycle, averaged a shorter distance, were harder to score by humans, and could only be possessed one at a time.
S.P.A.M.er
29-02-2012, 09:59
I can see some teams putting their lone jocks as the human player this year just to try for those points. The only disadvantage i see to it is that they have 54' to throw it and over their inbounder station. Its highly unlikely but props to the teams who actually can make that shot.
372 lives on
03-03-2012, 17:10
from 2009 experience we decided this would be important at kickoff. we stole a basketball player and locked him in a closet with a hoop and some basketballs.
There were actually quite a few shots made at Kettering today.
caseydech
03-03-2012, 19:40
Actually, I myself had an interesting experience as the human player in the hamboro competition ( not sure hamboro is the name of the place but it;s something like that). I was able to figure out how to bounce the balls and get them over the bump when I infeeded them. Also, the last 30 seconds hail marys do work. I myself scored 3 baskets in 6 of the matches I threw in, that makes for 25% ish chance of scoring based on the amount of balls I actually threw. So.... They work, but without practice... not reliable.
-Casey
1391
Actually, I myself had an interesting experience as the human player in the hamboro competition ( not sure hamboro is the name of the place but it;s something like that). I was able to figure out how to bounce the balls and get them over the bump when I infeeded them. Also, the last 30 seconds hail marys do work. I myself scored 3 baskets in 6 of the matches I threw in, that makes for 25% ish chance of scoring based on the amount of balls I actually threw. So.... They work, but without practice... not reliable.
-Casey
1391
Emphasis mine.
We actually passed our Inbounder tryouts based on how well you could bounce balls from the feeder station over the bump. I'm averaging 8.6 balls out of 10 right now.
johnmaguire2013
04-03-2012, 08:57
If I remember correctly, in one of the finalist matches at Kettering, human players actually made the difference. The two alliances were very close in score, and one alliance was able to throw balls to get over the score. The other alliance then threw enough to beat that score. I could be wrong, as it was a bit hard to see from where I was, but it was pretty exciting.
DampRobot
04-03-2012, 12:41
The general consensus I'm hearing on this thread is that human players can score, but they rarely decide matches. So, more human player scoring than 2011, but less than 2009. Would you say that's an accurate obseration?
The general consensus I'm hearing on this thread is that human players can score, but they rarely decide matches. So, more human player scoring than 2011, but less than 2009. Would you say that's an accurate obseration?
I would say that is correct. More of human player scoring is coming down to having a ball to score in the first place. Unless you have a steady stream of balls coming to you (In which case making a human basket is the least of your worries), you won't stand a chance unless you have one heck of an arm and accuracy from ~60ft.
In general, human players score because they have a lot of balls to try with. That means that their opponents scored a lot of points, so hitting three points at the end rarely is enough to overcome their disadvantage.
I think it will change as teams get better and both sides are hording balls. Then that last second shot could make the difference.
MagiChau
04-03-2012, 13:06
I would say that is correct. More of human player scoring is coming down to having a ball to score in the first place. Unless you have a steady stream of balls coming to you (In which case making a human basket is the least of your worries), you won't stand a chance unless you have one heck of an arm and accuracy from ~60ft.
Training on how to aim for the 3 point shot was the main problem at Gull Lake for human players. Many I have saw could chuck the ball to hit around the correct height of the backboard.
GiannaLeigh3
04-03-2012, 19:23
I think people are underestimating the powers of the inbounder/ human player this year! Our human player made several baskets over the course of the qualifying rounds this weekend racking up an impressive 14 points for our team, 7 of which were scored in one match, winning it for us! Teams need to watch out for these "hail-mary" shots! ;)
Another thing is to watch for robots that can score from on the bridges after they are balanced for extra points
I think people are underestimating the powers of the inbounder/ human player this year! Our human player made several baskets over the course of the qualifying rounds this weekend racking up an impressive 14 points for our team, 7 of which were scored in one match, winning it for us! Teams need to watch out for these "hail-mary" shots! ;)
That match made my day. :D
Three baskets scored out of the four he threw.
Two 2 pointers and one 3!
BrendanB
04-03-2012, 22:35
I think people are underestimating the powers of the inbounder/ human player this year! Our human player made several baskets over the course of the qualifying rounds this weekend racking up an impressive 14 points for our team, 7 of which were scored in one match, winning it for us! Teams need to watch out for these "hail-mary" shots! ;)
Agreed some of these shots are really starting to make a difference. Our human player scored a 1pt shot over the weekend in the final seconds of a match to turn a tie into a win!
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