<G33>

[Steven Donow]

[G33]
During Teleop, Players must be within their Alliance Station. Inbounders who were in the Kinect Station during Hybrid must return safely and expediently to their Alliance Station at the start of Teleop. Inbounders must remain behind the Starting Line during the Match. Exceptions will be allowed in cases involving Player safety.
Violation: Foul

Emphasis mine. Does this mean that you have to throw/toss the balls onto the ramp at the Inbounder Station? Or are you able to lean towards it. In better words, is this rule stating that the Inbounder's feet can't cross the Starting Line, or that you can't break the vertical plane of the Starting Line AT ALL?

[dudeman2009]

My interpretation of the rule is that the vertical plane must remain unbroken.

“Inbounders must remain behind the Starting Line during the Match.”

I am going to plan on the entire inbounder including any and all appendages and clothing must remain behind the line.

[Jon Stratis]

Look at section 2.2.6/2.2.7 - the inbound station has a funnel on it. I think you're supposed to simply place the balls in the funnel, and have them roll out to the field. Also, note that the corral is inside the starting line - in order to pick up balls, the inbounder will have to reach across that line.

[professorX]

Look at section 2.2.6/2.2.7 - the inbound station has a funnel on it. I think you're supposed to simply place the balls in the funnel, and have them roll out to the field. Also, note that the corral is inside the starting line - in order to pick up balls, the inbounder will have to reach across that line.

This video should clarify it:
http://youtu.be/IaFiCbZLPRY?t=34s

[bduddy]

This video should clarify it:
http://youtu.be/IaFiCbZLPRY?t=34sIt looks like the Starting Line does not continue across the front of the Corral, so there should be no problem with the rules here. It does go across the slot, though, so robots will basically have to pick balls up off the ground...

[Steven Donow]

It looks like the Starting Line does not continue across the front of the Corral, so there should be no problem with the rules here. It does go across the slot, though, so robots will basically have to pick balls up off the ground...

Not necessarily. If you have a hopper or some sort of opening in your robot that can place itself in front of the majority of the slot at the Inbound Station, you should be fine.

[nssheepster]

I think something that big will be covered long before competition. My guess is that they don't want Inbounders swapping out with or aiding the Drivers. So, you can't, say, grab a joystick and get going after you direct the robot via Kinect.

[rich2202]

2.2.6 "The Starting Line is marked on the floor 4 ft back from the Alliance Wall, and extends across the width of the Alliance Station"

Seems like it does include the Corral and the Inbound Station. There should be an exception for those two areas.

[nssheepster]

Uh, one of our mentors aspires to GDC. He thinks we'll just have to throw it into the funnel over the slot. And the corral is on the line. He's usually right, so we're planning on it.

[Grim Tuesday]

Uh, one of our mentors aspires to GDC. He thinks we'll just have to throw it into the funnel over the slot. And the corral is on the line. He's usually right, so we're planning on it.

I'm not sure what your mentor wanting to be on the GDC has to do with the rules. What do you mean by 'throw it into the funnel over the slot'? You can only throw balls over the wall in the last 30 seconds.

[DonRotolo]

My guess is that they don't want Inbounders swapping out with or aiding the Drivers. So, you can't, say, grab a joystick and get going after you direct the robot via Kinect.I think you have missed the issue.

Inbounders must stand behind the starting line, about 4 feet from the hole/slot for putting balls back onto the field. The issue is, can they reach over the "starting line" or not.

The rules are very clear for your issue:
[G36] During a Match, the operator console shall be operated solely by the Drivers of that team. Violation: Technical-FoulDrivers are identified by Driver Badges.

[musicgurl1329]

Technically, wouldn't this person be the 3rd human player? Or is there a rule I missed saying there can only be 2 human players?

[rich2202]

Technically, wouldn't this person be the 3rd human player? Or is there a rule I missed saying there can only be 2 human players?

Rule G04 "Each FRC team provides up to four Players (a Coach, two Drivers and an Inbounder)."

[nssheepster]

He's old enough to help, and usually runs the floor crew at Finger Lakes Regional. That's why. Throwing it into the funnel is not over the wall. And the top of the funnel is below the wall but past the starting line.

[JesseK]

For what it's worth, this question is posed on the Q&A. Now we can all stop name-dropping, ego-pumping, and wishfully conjecturing that the rule is one way or the other.

Game - The Game » Human Actions » G33
Q. Does this rule mean that inbounders cannot step over the Starting line. Or that no part of their body may pass the vertical projection of the line?
https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Questions.php

[Gary Dillard]

I posted a followup question to Q&A, regarding what happens if you miss the slot when you throw the ball and it stays in the inbound station. Foul for not holding the ball (G31) or foul for crossing the line to get it (G33), take your pick.

[wilhitern1]

Given the answer to the 1/16 question, is the bounce pass dead? Standing at the slot, I can do a beautiful bounce pass. But that far back, I don't know if I could reliably get real velocity on the ball... What do you guys think?

[lemiant]

Not even slightly dead. We tested the field a couple nights ago (before the ruling) and members were able to make shots without any part of their body a crossing the projection of the line. So with the ruling it is definitely doable (in fact we did those too). We were making about 50% of them after half an hour of practice, so by comps making every single one shouldn't be a huge issue. One note, your inbounder should be tall.:)

[wilhitern1]

One note, your inbounded should be tall.:)

And right handed, Right? I'm a lefty so it appears to make it tougher for me...

[lemiant]

And right handed, Right? I'm a lefty so it appears to make it tougher for me...

Yes, right-handed is better.

[Gary Dillard]

I got my answer:

Q. G33 states:...Inbounders must remain behind the Starting Line during the Match." This appears to imply that the inbounders cannot enter the inbound station to place balls through the slot. What happens if the inbounder misses the slot and the ball remains in the inbound station?
A. If the Inbounder must break a rule to retrieve a Basketball, the nearest field reset person should be notified and asked to retrieve the Basketball for the Inbounder.

[jvriezen]

This answer from the GDC seems to indicate breaking the plan is ok, as long as you don't touch the carpet past the line.

Q. Does this rule mean that inbounders cannot step over the Starting line. Or that no part of their body may pass the vertical projection of the line? FRC4334 2012-01-16

A. Inbounders may not contact the carpet in front of the Starting Line.

Now, does it say anywhere in the rules that the inbounder's shoes are part of the inbounder ? ::rtm:::rolleyes:

[nssheepster]

I got my answer:

Q. G33 states:...Inbounders must remain behind the Starting Line during the Match." This appears to imply that the inbounders cannot enter the inbound station to place balls through the slot. What happens if the inbounder misses the slot and the ball remains in the inbound station?
A. If the Inbounder must break a rule to retrieve a Basketball, the nearest field reset person should be notified and asked to retrieve the Basketball for the Inbounder.

That would suck. Way too slow. Ouch.

[Andrew Lawrence]

I got my answer:

Q. G33 states:...Inbounders must remain behind the Starting Line during the Match." This appears to imply that the inbounders cannot enter the inbound station to place balls through the slot. What happens if the inbounder misses the slot and the ball remains in the inbound station?
A. If the Inbounder must break a rule to retrieve a Basketball, the nearest field reset person should be notified and asked to retrieve the Basketball for the Inbounder.

Well then teams, train your human player. One missed shot will be a lot of wasted time.

[DjScribbles]

Wouldn't the requirement to get a field reset person to retrieve out of reach balls allow a team to "hoard" balls by "accidently" missing the funnel?

Considering there is a fairly small number of balls in play, it seems like this could become a sneaky strategy for starving the field or the enemy team, or hoarding balls for freethrows at the end.

[bduddy]

I got my answer:

Q. G33 states:...Inbounders must remain behind the Starting Line during the Match." This appears to imply that the inbounders cannot enter the inbound station to place balls through the slot. What happens if the inbounder misses the slot and the ball remains in the inbound station?
A. If the Inbounder must break a rule to retrieve a Basketball, the nearest field reset person should be notified and asked to retrieve the Basketball for the Inbounder.Wow, field reset is going to be fun this year.

Apparently they've clarified in Q&A that the rule refers to stepping over the line, not the plane, so no impossible ball retrieval...

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Wouldn't the requirement to get a field reset person to retrieve out of reach balls allow a team to "hoard" balls by "accidently" missing the funnel?

Considering there is a fairly small number of balls in play, it seems like this could become a sneaky strategy for starving the field or the enemy team, or hoarding balls for freethrows at the end.

Having a ball in the inbound station without being held by a inbounder is a foul.

I wonder if not picking up that ball once the foul is assessed will incur more fouls, or is it a one time foul (and thus a possible hoarding strategy).

[nitneylion452]

Having a ball in the inbound station without being held by a inbounder is a foul.

I wonder if not picking up that ball once the foul is assessed will incur more fouls, or is it a one time foul (and thus a possible hoarding strategy).

I would think that is very un-GP.


Side note, but still relevant:
I'm quite surprised that there isn't some sort of timer for returning balls to the field after being scored like there was in Breakaway. I imagine the original purpose of that was to prevent ball starving and it seems like that is a real and present danger in this year's game.

[wilhitern1]

I imagine the original purpose of that was to prevent ball starving and it seems like that is a real and present danger in this year's game.

For ball starvation to be intelligent, you have to get an advantage from it. The balls that you are using to starve with are balls that you would theoretically inbound to your robots for your side to score. By not inbounding them to your robots, you are saying that your robot's shot percentage is going to be significantly lower than your opponents, thus giving them the chance to get the ball back.

Legally, your side can have 9 in the bots and 6 in the station. That leaves 3 on the field in the hands of the other side. You'd have to be up by a minimum of 10 to even consider it. That only gives you a 1 point advantage going into the balancing. It's going to be trivial for 1 robot to balance, so I figure I got to be up by 11 going into the balancing in case there's a problem. So, if you are scoring so well that you are ahead by 11, what sense does it make to stop scoring. That's what it takes to do ball starvation. In the big picture, I'd say that ball starvation is a loosing proposition this year.

[Siri]

...So, if you are scoring so well that you are ahead by 11, what sense does it make to stop scoring. That's what it takes to do ball starvation. In the big picture, I'd say that ball starvation is a loosing proposition this year.I think this overlooks a lot of the more dynamic scenarios that will come up this season. I can think of four instances right off:
- You know you're best shot at winning is to win the bridge. This is a risk, but a calculated one that could well come up, especially once we see how difficult this is for average teams in competition. I don't think I'd completely shut down our throughput in most of these cases, but at the very least I'll likely exercise strict (slow) ball control on several occasions.
- You have one or more robots that are strong in autonomous but less hot in teleop. Perhaps they have poor reloading mechanisms or are dunkers that do best under no defense. If I can grab the lead in autonomous with the higher point values, I may well return slower--at least slower than I would if I was down by 10.
- You've got one strong shooter who starts great and then breaks. This will happen, and is probably my biggest/most common instance. Even if I had a weaker scorer left, I'd definitely slow down and maybe even shut down if I knew I had a good enough lead for the Bridges.
- Your opposing alliance Inbounders are all proverbial Minibot Tower Hitters, or your opponents aren't guarding their Alley well enough. This is significantly less likely this year, but if I've got enough balls getting dropped right into my scoring side, I'm not going to cross the field unless (albeit still before) I must.

There are probably countless other scenarios (good or bad). Remember matches are dynamic; it's not all about theoretical scoring capacity.

[nitneylion452]

I think this overlooks a lot of the more dynamic scenarios that will come up this season. I can think of four instances right off:
- You know you're best shot at winning is to win the bridge. This is a risk, but a calculated one that could well come up, especially once we see how difficult this is for average teams in competition. I don't think I'd completely shut down our throughput in most of these cases, but at the very least I'll likely exercise strict (slow) ball control on several occasions.
- You have one or more robots that are strong in autonomous but less hot in teleop. Perhaps they have poor reloading mechanisms or are dunkers that do best under no defense. If I can grab the lead in autonomous with the higher point values, I may well return slower--at least slower than I would if I was down by 10.
- You've got one strong shooter who starts great and then breaks. This will happen, and is probably my biggest/most common instance. Even if I had a weaker scorer left, I'd definitely slow down and maybe even shut down if I knew I had a good enough lead for the Bridges.
- Your opposing alliance Inbounders are all proverbial Minibot Tower Hitters, or your opponents aren't guarding their Alley well enough. This is significantly less likely this year, but if I've got enough balls getting dropped right into my scoring side, I'm not going to cross the field unless (albeit still before) I must.

There are probably countless other scenarios (good or bad). Remember matches are dynamic; it's not all about theoretical scoring capacity.


I agree. Ball starving is a very present possibility both when leading and when behind if you feel that your best chance at winning will be the bridges.

Think that maybe after week 1 or even week 0 we may see a rule change?