"assisted" balance

[bhaidet]

As teams balance on the alliance bridges, they (or at least their bumpers) will likely touch the side wall. I would not expect this to disqualify a team from being "balanced" but then it brings up the slippery slope question. How much contact is legal? would <G10> prevent you from, for example, attaching a suction cup to the court wall and using a piston to lift yourself vertical?

This example is probably illegal, qualifying as "attaching" to an arena structure, but what about something that just presses against the wall, like a pneumatic piston with racquetball-type-material on the end? It would be easy to stick this into the wall while the platform was tipping and with timing, sticking yourself at horizontal.

[Kevin Selavko]

There is only a small lip on the outside perimiter of the ramp, no wall. Look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AMaqqmoLgQ.

[Steven Sigley]

What if instead of pushing the wall, you extended over the side of the bridge and used a pneumatic to press on the floor and hold the bridge level through the end of the match.

(assuming bridge would fall if your robot wasn't pushing it balanced)

Any ideas on the legality of this?

[Andrew Lawrence]

What if instead of pushing the wall, you extended over the side of the bridge and used a pneumatic to press on the floor and hold the bridge level through the end of the match.

(assuming bridge would fall if your robot wasn't pushing it balanced)

Any ideas on the legality of this?

That's what we thought about.

[Bjenks548]

Going with Steven's post, has anyone found what it means to be balanced on the bridge? I know the bridge has to be within 5 degrees of horizontal, but what can your robot be touching? the ground? the side wall? the bump?

[Snorlax]

Going with Steven's post, has anyone found what it means to be balanced on the bridge? I know the bridge has to be within 5 degrees of horizontal, but what can your robot be touching? the ground? the side wall? the bump?

[G41] If a Robot from each Alliance is balanced on the Coopertition Bridge when the final score for a Qualification Match is assessed per Rule [G37], each Alliance earns 2 Coopertition Points. If the Coopertition Bridge is not balanced, but a Robot from each Alliance is fully supported by the Coopertition Bridge, each Alliance will earn 1 Coopertition Point.
I don't think the rules explicitly state what balanced is defined as.

[MagiChau]

The coopertition bridge under [G41] requires robots to be fully supported by the bridge. I am under the impression that the GDC forgot to mention the condition of being "fully supported by the bridge" for alliance bridges' balancing. This should be up for Q&A when it opens to get the actual word.

[Aren Siekmeier]

Aside from the rule concerning attaching to field structures, there is nothing saying you cannot touch anything other the ramp to count as balancing. For instance, the floor. The same is true for coopertition bridges (for which you only have to be fully supported if its NOT balanced and you still want the 1 pt).

The current definition of balanced is within 5 degrees of horizontal. Nothing more.

[pfreivald]

The rules explicitly state that a bridge is balanced if it is within 5 degrees of horizontal.

...that said, I'm willing to bet that a rules update will clarify that to earn points, robots must be only in contact with the bridge and/or other robots that are only in contact with the bridge. Remember, read the rules as engineering guidelines, and do not try to "lawyer" them.

[Jimmy K]

What if two robots are completely on a bridge and fully supported by the bridge and/or themselves, while a third robot is on the carpet but holding the bridge level by pressing up or down on one end of the bridge? Of course, this probably breaks the intent of the rule, but this needs clarification.

[lefkoc]

I'm not sure on touching the floor, but my team also wondered if it was legal to clamp onto another bot on your alliance (not the opposing) to make it easier to put the third bot on the bridge.

[wilhitern1]

I'm not sure on touching the floor, but my team also wondered if it was legal to clamp onto another bot on your alliance (not the opposing) to make it easier to put the third bot on the bridge.

I see no rules against it, but it will be a week before I feel thoroughly studied up.

[bhaidet]

I feel like the 3rd robot touching the floor would be completely legal but would only count as two bots.

My original pneumatic ram would be pressing against the side fence for the arena, not the floor. I'm sure any clarification will outlaw the floor or else all 3 bots could just go stand next to it and touch it

[Basel A]

The first team update says:
A Bridge will count as Balanced if it is within 5° of horizontal and any Robots touching it are fully supported by it.

Emphasis mine. While I think it was clear that this was the initial intent of the rules, now the intent matches the rule itself. No touching the ground!

[LabVIEW Rocks!]

I'm not sure on touching the floor, but my team also wondered if it was legal to clamp onto another bot on your alliance (not the opposing) to make it easier to put the third bot on the bridge.

Im pretty sure you can grab an alliance robot, but not an opponet robot. But be sure and read the rules carefully first.::rtm::

[Ninja_Bait]

The first team update says:


Emphasis mine. While I think it was clear that this was the initial intent of the rules, now the intent matches the rule itself. No touching the ground!

A third robot can still assist balancing for two other robots, though, based on these rules.

[Jimmy K]

"A Bridge will count as Balanced if it is within 5° of horizontal and any Robots touching it are fully supported by it." -- Team Update 1

So the third bot cannot help with balancing the bridge (unless it is doing so without touching the bridge i.e. telepathically ;) ).

EDIT: Referenced the quote as coming from the team update.

[Ninja_Bait]

Oh, wow, you're right. I totally misread that.

[Kraftyman]

Can you reference the manual?

"A Bridge will count as Balanced if it is within 5° of horizontal and any Robots touching it are fully supported by it."

Mine does not state those words together.....

[firemaster193]

but in coopertition points could you grasp an opposing robot

[RufflesRidge]

Can you reference the manual?

"A Bridge will count as Balanced if it is within 5° of horizontal and any Robots touching it are fully supported by it."

Mine does not state those words together.....

The first Team Update was released today. In the past they have been released on Tuesdays and Fridays by ~5:00pm Eastern.

[bhaidet]

I think that even another robot on the ground would qualify as "support" so they pretty much killed all hope of getting around the rule with the last update.

[Siri]

Im pretty sure you can grab an alliance robot, but not an opponet robot. But be sure and read the rules carefully first.::rtm::Not entirely accurate. The rule concerning contact with an opponent robot, <G27>, states: "Deliberate or damaging contact with an opponent Robot inside its Frame Perimeter is not allowed." <G26> may also apply in some situations: "Strategies aimed at the destruction, attachment, damage, tipping or entanglement of Robots are not in the spirit of
the FRC and are not allowed."

Thus if you contacted the opposing robot outside of its frame perimeter (say, its bumpers) in a way not aimed at the destruction, attachment, damage, tipping or entanglement of any robot, you may well be legal.

[rich2202]

The kick off video shows bots grabbing each other when balancing 3 bots on a bridge. The trick is going to figure out - in advance - how to hold onto the other bot. Unless grab points are defined in advance, how can you plan for grabbing?

When you are balancing 2 bots on a bridge, there is enough room that you do not need to touch the other bot.

[Grim Tuesday]

The kick off video shows bots grabbing each other when balancing 3 bots on a bridge. The trick is going to figure out - in advance - how to hold onto the other bot. Unless grab points are defined in advance, how can you plan for grabbing?

When you are balancing 2 bots on a bridge, there is enough room that you do not need to touch the other bot.

The video is never a reliable source. They also have the robots holding basketballs and using them to balance, clearly in violation of [G14].

[G14]
Strategies that use Basketballs to either aid or inhibit Balancing of any Bridge are not allowed.
Violation: Technical-Foul, and counting or discounting the affected Bridge as Balanced, as appropriate.

[WizenedEE]

"A Bridge will count as Balanced if it is within 5° of horizontal and any Robots touching it are fully supported by it." -- Team Update 1

So you can incur the technical-foul by touching your opponent's bridge WITHOUT interfering with balancing (so no red card and it doesn't count). Then, a Robot touching it won't be fully supported and they'll lose the 10-20 points.

Although I guess that "the act of balancing" refers to that technically as well.

[Siri]

Not entirely accurate. The rule concerning contact with an opponent robot, <G27>, states: "Deliberate or damaging contact with an opponent Robot inside its Frame Perimeter is not allowed." <G26> may also apply in some situations: "Strategies aimed at the destruction, attachment, damage, tipping or entanglement of Robots are not in the spirit of
the FRC and are not allowed."

Thus if you contacted the opposing robot outside of its frame perimeter (say, its bumpers) in a way not aimed at the destruction, attachment, damage, tipping or entanglement of any robot, you may well be legal.Note that outside-the-frame perimeter grabbing for coopertition purposes appears to have been made legal by Team Update 2 (http://frc-manual.usfirst.org/TeamUpdates/0#term%2086). <G26> now does not apply for this situation, as it reads:
Strategies aimed at the destruction or inhibition of Robots, via attachment, damage, tipping or entanglement of Robots are not in the spirit of the FRC and are not allowed.

Bumper it up! ;)