Chief Delphi - Bumpers and Team Number

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vladsfl

16-01-2012 13:09

Bumpers and Team Number

Rookie team question: I believe we need to put team number on all sides of the robot, but what if we have the opening on one side.

Also if we have opening on the side any suggestions on constructing a bumper that can be easily changed as required?

EricH

16-01-2012 13:57

Re: Bumpers and Team Number

Quote:

Originally Posted by vladsfl (Post 1106871)

Rookie team question: I believe we need to put team number on all sides of the robot, but what if we have the opening on one side.

Then you put the number where the opening isn't. There is also some discussion on whether it's legal to put the number on both bumpers on the open side.

Quote:

Also if we have opening on the side any suggestions on constructing a bumper that can be easily changed as required?

Build both sections for a quick change.

Remember, the rules define the requirements. Read them carefully, and they will tell you what you need to know about this.

SenorZ

16-01-2012 13:59

Re: Bumpers and Team Number

As per [R35] you need your # at "four locations at approximately 90° intervals around the perimeter of the Robot." So if you have an opening, you still need 8" from each corner/vertex. Just put your team number next to the corner on all four sides!

Cal578

07-02-2012 21:23

Re: Bumpers and Team Number

[R35]

Quote:

Teams shall display their team number on the Bumpers in four locations at approximately 90° intervals around the
perimeter of the Robot. The numerals must be at least 4 in. high, at least ¾ in. in stroke width, and be either white in
color or outlined in white. Team numbers must be clearly visible from a distance of not less than 100 ft, so that judges,
referees, and announcers can easily identify competing Robots.

Do you interpret "four locations" to mean "exactly 4 - no more, no less"?

Our team is building a U-shaped rectangular frame, opening in the middle of the front (which is 27"). I think it would look good to put our team number on both sides of the front opening, as well once each on the left, right, and back, for a total of 5 numbers. I believe this meets the spirit and intent of the rule, "...so that judges, referees, and announcers [and spectators] can easily identify competing Robots." (I added the part in italics).

I've just signed up for the Q&A, but apparently I need to wait before I can post a question. When I click the "Team Questions" tab, it says "Your request is in pending state".

Cal578

08-02-2012 09:29

Re: Bumpers and Team Number

Looks like team 1619 just posted exactly the question for [R35] that I wanted. The answer is still pending, but I'm following it.

SteveGPage

08-02-2012 11:47

Re: Bumpers and Team Number

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cal578 (Post 1122023)

I've just signed up for the Q&A, but apparently I need to wait before I can post a question. When I click the "Team Questions" tab, it says "Your request is in pending state".

There are two types of accounts in the Q&A forum. The first is a team account, ie. FRC0836. The password for that account can be found in TIMS. That account already exists, and is the account you must use to ask a question. The second type of account is a personal account, where individuals can sign up to see and follow questions, but not ask questions. Once you create a personal account, the team admin must go in and authenticate your request to follow and see the team questions - that's why you are getting the message you get when you click on Team Questions. If you haven't had someone sign in as the team admin, you will need that done before they can ask the question and authenticate your account.

Cal578

08-02-2012 11:58

Re: Bumpers and Team Number

Thanks, Steve, that is very helpful. Too bad the message on the Q&A wasn't a little more intuitive. Anyway, I will find out who on my team can take care of that.

jimwick

08-02-2012 12:05

Re: Bumpers and Team Number

We have had good luck in attaching the sections of bumpers at the corners with metal angles, then lowering them as a unit onto the robot. We usually use the KOP frame and attach the bumpers to them with small angles. Attaching sections at the corners helps stabilize the bumpers.

This year, with a gap in the front, we will try to put a temporary brace across the front, just hold while mounting.

pribusin

08-02-2012 12:18

Re: Bumpers and Team Number

We have the same issue, large front opening. Our concern is the lettering size requirement. If we were to put our team number on one side of the opening only, the bumper size would not be large enough. We are going to split the team number in half. Hope that doesn't violate the rule. Looking forward to seeing an answer on this.

Nate Laverdure

08-02-2012 12:52

Re: Bumpers and Team Number

Quote:

Originally Posted by pribusin (Post 1122381)

We are going to split the team number in half. Hope that doesn't violate the rule. Looking forward to seeing an answer on this.

There already is one. In the Q&A under R35:

Quote:

Per [R35] team numbers must be "clearly visible from a distance of not less than 100 ft, so that judges, referees, and announcers can easily identify competing Robots." Thus they may not be obscured in any way (disconnected, out of order, rotated, upside-down, mirror imaged, etc).

IceStorm

08-02-2012 12:52

Re: Bumpers and Team Number

I'd watch out splitting the number in half per the QandA.

Quote:

Q. We have a u-shaped robot, so will have split front bumpers. Can we split the our numbers; say "33" on the right and the "52" on the left or do all of the numbers need to be on one side of the robot? It may be a tight fit with the new number size criteria. FRC3352 2012-01-19
A. Per [R35], team numbers must be clearly visible. This means that they may not be inverted, obscured, fragmented, upside down, etc.

Were in the same boat as everyone else. I really hope that they ease up on this ruling. We've got the backs for the bumpers cut but have hesitated doing anything with the fabric until closer to the actual stop build date.

nighterfighter

08-02-2012 12:53

Re: Bumpers and Team Number

All the teams attending Peachtree received this email from the LRI...

TL;DR version- Having split numbers is NOT allowed (yet). Meaning that 4 digit teams are going to have a hard time.

Quote:

Peachtree Regional FIRST Teams,As we near the end of the Build Period, I want to make all teams competing at the Peachtree aware of what may be an issue for some teams. Bumpers frequently present issues during the inspection process – and this year perhaps more so as the result of some specific rule requirements. In particular, the requirement for a minimum bumper segment of 8” appears to be causing some confusion for teams, based on the Q&A activity. Also, there appears to be confusion on the proper placement of the required team numbers. The Rules are very explicit in the size, style, and placement of the team’s identifying numbers, and with the need for Referees and field personnel to be able to clearly and quickly identify a robot, these will be enforced.One issue has arisen concerning these requirements. The 8” bumper segment does NOT allow for 4 digit team numbers to fit. The Game Design Committee has been asked, in the Q&A, about the acceptability of “splitting” a team’s number between multiple bumper sections to allow a maximum opening for ball collection. They have repeatedly responded with requiring the team number to “not be fragmented” and have determined that a “split” number will NOT be acceptable. The Inspectors have contacted the GDC and explained the issue but until a rules change is issued in a team update, we will be enforcing the current GDC ruling at Peachtree – and I would expect at other events as well.I have attached an extract of the Q&A that addresses these issues for your information. Q&A rulings are considered “official” – Chief Delphi comments and answers are not.
Please send your questions directly to Jeff Rees at [hidden]
Regards,
Jeff Rees
Lead Robot Inspector
Peachtree Regional

Here is the relevant Q&A answer-

Quote:

Q. We have a u-shaped robot, so will have split front bumpers. Can we split the our
numbers; say "33" on the right and the "52" on the left or do all of the numbers need to be
on one side of the robot? It may be a tight fit with the new number size criteria.

A. Per [R35], team numbers must be clearly visible. This means that they may not be inverted,
obscured, fragmented, upside down, etc.

IKE	08-02-2012 12:57

Re: Bumpers and Team Number

There were several questions in the Q&A about trying to fit 4 numbers on the minimum bumper length. Attached is a template that I hope will help some teams work through the issue presenting legible numbers.

Legible numbers are important for getting recognition by field staff, judges, and scouting. Every year, there are a couple of teams that I see minimal data on from my scouts because the numbers are difficult to read.

Bumper Numbering Template by IKE

Cal578

08-02-2012 13:03

Re: Bumpers and Team Number

The minimum length of the bumper is 8 inches along the frame. Add in the thickness of the plywood and noodle, and you'll have 11.25 inches from the outside corner to the inside edge of the bumper.

The digits need to be 4 inches high, and 3/4 inch stroke width. There is no specification on the digit width, except that it must be clearly legible. So pick a simple font, don't put too much space in between digits, and it should fit. Our team is a 3-digit number, so we have room to spare. 4-digit teams will probably need to use almost all available space.

JesseK

08-02-2012 13:09

Re: Bumpers and Team Number

The manual is supposed to be simpler this year, yet this is a prime example of how vague rules overlap to derive obfuscated requirements.

Hey GDC, answer me this:

Why can't we simply not put numbers on bumpers so long as the numbers are clear and visible from 4 sides?
What specifically is so important to the GDC that the GDC mandate numbers go specifically on the bumpers?
Why not post a color template for all teams to print off and post on 4 sides?
What's going to happen when the team #'s hit 10,000? Are rookie teams really going have their designs that much more hindered compared to old veteran teams with only 3 digits or lots of 1's in their team number?

Phyrxes

08-02-2012 13:32

Re: Bumpers and Team Number

We have our side bumpers done, we are waiting to see how this is going to work with with putting our 4 digit number on two sections of the front before committing to front and back bumper arrangements.

I'd really just like to be able to display our team number above the bumper on the front and back, putting it on the poly-carbonate shielding.

EricH

08-02-2012 13:36

Re: Bumpers and Team Number

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phyrxes (Post 1122412)

I'd really just like to be able to display our team number above the bumper on the front and back, putting it on the poly-carbonate shielding.

You already can--in addition to the number on the bumper, of course. That would be pretty much a Non-Functional Decoration.

BrendanB

08-02-2012 13:40

Re: Bumpers and Team Number

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phyrxes (Post 1122412)

Team 148 has done that the past two years along with several other teams. It is a great way to display your numbers in a way that sticks with your team's image and it is easier to read compared to bumpers. Sorry GDC.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/34909

Phyrxes

08-02-2012 13:44

Re: Bumpers and Team Number

Let me clarify my previous post:

I would prefer not having to place numbers on my front bumper sections (8" in length) and instead having on the shielding. If that fulfilled the requirements of team numbers every 90 degrees I would be extra happy, or maybe I've been staring at the Q&A too much and its impacting how I read anything.

the man

08-02-2012 13:59

Re: Bumpers and Team Number

This is insane. There is no way we can fit 4 numbers on an "8" inch bumper. Actually 10.5 ish. I would hate to have to rework our bumpers so the audiance can read one side. Its to hard to read the other three....

jvriezen

08-02-2012 14:27

Re: Bumpers and Team Number

Quote:

Originally Posted by the man (Post 1122423)

You can fit four numbers in the 10.5 ish. There is a template on CD-media and also a True-type font available there that I posted.

The font, when scaled to 4" tall, has 3/4 stroke and each digit is 2" wide. With a 1/2" space between digits, that is 9.5" total.

the man

08-02-2012 14:35

Re: Bumpers and Team Number

It really depends a lot on the numbers your trying to fit on their, without making them illegible. Guess we'll have to figure it out.

Bill_B

08-02-2012 17:55

Re: Bumpers and Team Number

Quote:

Originally Posted by the man (Post 1122423)

Here's what I did for the short-bumper numbers:
1. opened MS Paint
2. define image to 6" x 10.5"
3. select text tool
4. make text area cover all of the image
5. in text toolbar, set font to Blue Highway Condensed (after some experimentation with typefaces)
6. set text height to 290 (points - there are 72 points in an inch) You have to type the number in here. It is not one of the drop-down selection options.
7. select Bold type
8. click in the text area to get blinking insertion point vertical bar
9. type as much of your number as you can. If you're lucky you'll get it all on the first try. If not don't despair. see steps 11a-11d
10. If your entire number fits side-to-side, skip to step 12
11a. to get the remaining digits for your number to fit, you can go to block selection mode and do some manual kerning (move the digits you have completed closer to each other on the left side of the image)
11b. back in text mode, make an entry area further to the right
11c. type the remaining digit(s)
11d. dress and align the new digit with the previous ones as in 11a.
12. block selection mode and put a tight marquee selection around your number
13. cursor to the tiny little square "handle" in the middle of the right side of the dashed line marquee
14. click and drag your selection to the right to "fatten" the digits. They are already 4" high, you are just going to make them 10 or so inches wide.
15. print them unscaled on a single sheet of letter paper landscape mode.
16. take them to your printer, painter, letter-maker for fabrication of something you can stick on the side of your short bumper.

HTH - glad to clarify if necessary.

Nate Laverdure

08-02-2012 20:12

Re: Bumpers and Team Number

4-digit numbers in Haettenschweiler fit within a 4" x 8.5" box at ~410pt, and meet the minimum stroke width requirement, no modifications necessary.

4-digit numbers in Impact (which is a terrible font) fit in a 4" x 10.5" box at ~360pt.

Both of these fonts come free with Windows.

waialua359

08-02-2012 22:11

Re: Bumpers and Team Number

This is a great thread, one that I will be eager to hear the answer to on the Q&A.
We finished our embroidered team numbers and had all the bumpers completed a couple days ago. Our 3 numbers barely fit nicely on the front left side, adjacent to the opening for ball intake.
We were just talking about how the heck teams with XXXX numbers were going to make them fit. I cant see those teams penalized by having to make the bumpers longer to accomodate.

JB987

08-02-2012 23:17

Re: Bumpers and Team Number

Quote:

Originally Posted by waialua359 (Post 1122753)

Why not just split the 4 digit team number between the two smaller bumpers 1,2 ....3,4 or if 3 digit number 03....59 :D

EricH

08-02-2012 23:21

Re: Bumpers and Team Number

Quote:

Originally Posted by JB987 (Post 1122829)

Why not just split the 4 digit team number between the two smaller bumpers 1,2 ....3,4 or if 3 digit number 03....59 :D

Because the GDC has explicitly disallowed that via Q&A.

Peyton Yeung

08-02-2012 23:23

Re: Bumpers and Team Number

After looking at this thread I'm so glad we only have 2 numbers...45

EricH

08-02-2012 23:30

Re: Bumpers and Team Number

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Steele (Post 1122840)

Everyone needs to remember that the numbers can go anywhere on the robot.
They are not required to be on bumpers at all... the requirement is that the robot has numbers of the proper size and spaced 90 degrees around the robot.

Bob, you're still in 2009.

[R35]
Teams shall display their team number on the Bumpers in four locations at approximately 90° intervals around the perimeter of the Robot.

The requirement is that your numbers must be on the bumpers. Anywhere else is in addition to the requirement.

BrendanB

08-02-2012 23:33

Re: Bumpers and Team Number

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tubatroopa (Post 1122838)

After looking at this thread I'm so glad we only have 2 numbers...45

And I'm glad we don't have a gap! :rolleyes:

You can make them fit, it will be tight but it is not impossible!

Bob Steele

09-02-2012 00:21

Re: Bumpers and Team Number

oops you are right...so anyone with a four letter number is screwed...
unless you are 1111... 4" letters 3/4" stroke...

Awfully skinny numbers to put on an 8" bumper segment..

they would have to average 2" width and that proportion will look funny..

I only can imagine team 3333... 3444...etc... 0's 8's 9's all have to be at least 2.25 wide to have any kind of proportion. (3/4 x 3).. and the letters should be at least 3/4" apart... so 3888 would be 9" for that number...

won't fit in 8" uinless you wrap it around...

Wonder what we need to do about this...

Bill_B

09-02-2012 00:39

Re: Bumpers and Team Number

1 Attachment(s)

Bob,
When you say "we", whom do you mean? Here's a monochrome BMP for 1983. It's ten inches wide and the numbers are four inches high.

Rick	15-02-2012 14:46

Re: Bumpers and Team Number

Has everyone forgot about the extra pool noodle that must go in the corners? This can make your 8 inch bumper facing up to 10.5 inches. More than enough for 2 inch wide numbers with half inch spacing.

IKE	15-02-2012 15:45

Re: Bumpers and Team Number

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Steele (Post 1122900)

...
I only can imagine team 3333... 3444...etc... 0's 8's 9's all have to be at least 2.25 wide to have any kind of proportion. (3/4 x 3).. and the letters should be at least 3/4" apart... so 3888 would be 9" for that number...
....Wonder what we need to do about this...

No need to imagine, I put a white paper out with 3333 fitting on the minimum bumper segment and meeting lettering requirements:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/papers/2633

I will totatlly agree that it is more difficult for 4 didigt teams, and there is a lot less flexibility than say 2 didigt team as far as font and style, but it should not hinder robot design (just aesthetics).

Kevin Sevcik

15-02-2012 16:09

Re: Bumpers and Team Number

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricH (Post 1122414)

You already can--in addition to the number on the bumper, of course. That would be pretty much a Non-Functional Decoration.

I think the GDC disagrees with you on that:

Quote:

Q. Does R35 limit the team number quantity to exactly four locations? For instance, if one side of the robot has two short bumpers separated by a gap, can the complete team number be put on both of those bumpers? Thus, there'd be two complete team numbers on one side of the robot. FRC1619 2012-02-08
A. Rule [R35] requires that the team number be displayed in four locations, no more or fewer.

You can quibble over whether the R35 applies specifically to team numbers on the bumpers of anywhere on the robot, but I think the GDC is taking an extremely restrictive reading on this one.

jvriezen

15-02-2012 16:19

Re: Bumpers and Team Number

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricksta (Post 1127391)

Actually 11.25 -- you also have the 3/4 plywood, plenty of room.. We created a custom font that is specifically designed just for the purpose of putting 4" / 3/4" numbers in 9.5 inches of horizontal space.

je2164

15-02-2012 19:42

Re: Bumpers and Team Number

According to the 2012 manual I can't find that it says the numbers can not be split up. Are you just saying that to make sure there is no confusion of what your number is? We have our number split up but if you are looking at the robot head on you'll see 43 76. I did not see that this isn't legal. Is it up to interpretation?

EricH

15-02-2012 19:54

Re: Bumpers and Team Number

Quote:

Originally Posted by je2164 (Post 1127603)

It is not up to interpretation. Well, if Q&A is up to interpretation, then it could be...

From 1/19:
Game - The Robot » Bumper Rules
Q. We have a u-shaped robot, so will have split front bumpers. Can we split the our numbers; say "33" on the right and the "52" on the left or do all of the numbers need to be on one side of the robot? It may be a tight fit with the new number size criteria.
A. Per [R35], team numbers must be clearly visible. This means that they may not be inverted, obscured, fragmented, upside down, etc.

From 1/13:
Game - The Robot » Bumper Rules » R35
Q. We are deciding to use a square U frame. So, we have to split the 4th bumper into 2 sections. Because of this, we can't decide how to place "3490" on our Bumper. Should we place the 4 numbers on 1 side, or should we split 34 and 90 across the Bumper. R35 doesn't explain how to handle this situation.
A. Per [R35] team numbers must be "clearly visible from a distance of not less than 100 ft, so that judges, referees, and announcers can easily identify competing Robots." Thus they may not be obscured in any way (disconnected, out of order, rotated, upside-down, mirror imaged, etc).

If you look at them from 100' away, with nothing in the way, you're just fine. But if you happen to be under defense, you could be mistaken for the Killer Bees (team 33), due to the other robot(s) blocking the "52" on the other bumper. This is why the GDC is being so persnickety...but I wish they'd make this clear in the Manual.

princessnatalie

20-02-2012 00:02

Re: Bumpers and Team Number

After finishing bumper making last night, and getting ready to paint numbers on bright and early this morning, one of my fellow teammates directed me to this thread.

At first I was frustrated, but it is possible to make the numbers fit. Our smallest bumper is 9 inches and our team number is 2471 so not exactly small (length-wise) but not long either.

I suggest starting by folding a piece of paper to the exact dimensions and free handing numbers on to see how crowded they are going to look. Which disappointed me, since I am all about making things pretty.
However, using Arial Narrow font size 450 (I believe) and changing the stroke or the outline of the text, I got numbers that fit perfectly.
So while the task is daunting, it is doable

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