Turret/Tower Height
 

Hey teams. just wondering where you find the sweet spot as far as the height of your shooter tower. First, Are you using a spinning turret or a tower with a spinning shooter?. How many degrees does it turn, if it does at all? Finally, how tall are you guys making your tower? I figure it doesnt need to be more than a foot of tower space, but then again maybe some people are storing balls in the tower. What do you guys think?

Re: Turret/Tower Height
 

Our shooter axel is 50 inches from the ground. Not sure if there is a sweet spot. We are tall so it's harder block our shots. Shooter has tiltbut no turret.

More details at 2012.discobots.org. Link to our daily log is at the bottom of the page.

Re: Turret/Tower Height
 

We put ours at 24" to make balancing and going over the barrier easier. If we go to the back of the key, we can't be blocked and we saw no reason to shoot from anywhere else.

Re: Turret/Tower Height
 

How do you figure?

Re: Turret/Tower Height
 

[quote=n1ckd2012;1115915]We are tall so it's harder block our shots.
QUOTE]

That's not neccesarily true. You could have a tower that's low to the ground and be right up against a taller robot, and all you have to do is just change the angle. The thing you need to take into consideration with the height of the tower is how that affects the center of gravity. You need to make sure its low enough for traversing the bump and/or bridge (if you're doing either). Low cg's will come in especially handy when trying to balance. I'd say a heigh of 30 or 40 is good. That's what we've got.

Re: Turret/Tower Height
 

The trajectory that we fire at ensures that the ball is above 60" by the time it hits the front of the key.

Front being defined as the part closest to the baskets.

Re: Turret/Tower Height
 

We'll do it one better: The ball is above 60" by the time it reaches the vertical projection of our bumper. If we're touching the key, no reasonable defense strategy is going to see an opposing robot "bump" us, so we *hope* that'll do.

Our shooter's top is around 50" as well.

Re: Turret/Tower Height
 

An opposing robot is allowed to be on your key (and block your shot, if your shooter is low). They receive a foul if they contact you while you're on the key.

I guess you could assume that no other robots will try to block you while you're on the key, but that may or may not be a valid assumption.

Re: Turret/Tower Height
 

In my opinion this is a pretty safe bet, they could just drive forward quickly and they'd get the foul. In fact, tempting opposing robots to sit in front of you in the key could be an even better scoring strategy than sinking baskets :yikes:.

Re: Turret/Tower Height
 

Hey teams. just wondering where you find the sweet spot as far as the height of your shooter tower. First, Are you using a spinning turret or a tower with a spinning shooter?we have a spinnining robot. How many degrees does it turn, if it does at all?it can turn 360 Finally, how tall are you guys making your tower?we will not have a "tower" I figure it doesnt need to be more than a foot of tower space, but then again maybe some people are storing balls in the tower. What do you guys think?i think your robot will fall over the first time you shoot a ball.

why are you so obsessed with spinning towers?

Re: Turret/Tower Height
 

We're avoiding a turret because we'd heard that during the 2006 competition, drivers would get confused by the driving chassis and turret turning independently (using tracking systems). It's also more complication that is not necessarily needed.

I think the main danger with towers is that they can whip around on the bridge, when crossing the barrier, or when your robot is hit by other robots (and can then break off without a significant amount of bracing). They also alter the center of gravity quite a lot. While you may not fall over when shooting, a robot with a tower possibly may when crossing over the barrier (especially when hit by another robot) or more likely, when crossing the bridge.

Our shooter is about 28-30in high right now. We've configured the shooter so that it can't be blocked by other robots. It is still vulnerable to being rammed.

We're aiming to be able to shoot from several places on the field.

Re: Turret/Tower Height
 

Our shooter is a one wheel design with the axle mounted at 36 inches high. We're using a small amount of vertical space plus the angled space from the front of the bot to the back (Where our shooter is located) to store the balls.

Re: Turret/Tower Height
 

Doesnt most teams have one student driving the robot and the other working the controls?

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FIRST Team 1296 is at 52" - also seems safe to me

Re: Turret/Tower Height
 

If they do try this, we can drive forward and bump them, under no penalty to us, and a three point penalty to them.

Re: Turret/Tower Height
 

I'm still not clear on the whole rule thing about that...but I kinda think you have a good approach, we might plan on making our shooter sit a bit lower, mainly to help with the CG thing. It looks like it won't lose us much.

Re: Turret/Tower Height
 

Not so much. If you do this intentionally exploiting G44's exception for G28, it's 9 points for them when you get a technical foul under G45.

Re: Turret/Tower Height
 

I think the intent of the rule is pretty clear, as stated in [G28]

Emphasis mine. The GDC seems to have thought of this eventuality and even made a rule for it. As for [G45]/[G44]

Emphasis mine.

Our strategy is shooting, they are interfering with our strategy, and they are liable for the penalty if they intrude upon the key. If our strategy was to bait them into the key then sting them with a penalty, that would be exploiting the exception as described in [G44]. However, that is not it.

Is my analysis sound?

Re: Turret/Tower Height
 

I'm not sure if your first assertion was questioning G45's applicability to G28, but if it was:
If not, I like the "strategy" distinction. If the motion of contact itself (moving to the front of the key) was part of your original shooting strategy, I'd agree with you. But if you're implying that you'd deliberately bump them to earn the foul rather than to physically shoot, I'd contest that this is a separate (if affiliated) strategy. I won't claim to red card you for it, but you may want to seek further clarification. I'll also point out tangentially, that the current litmus test for technical fouling with regards to intentionality is essentially just repetition.

Good thought.

Re: Turret/Tower Height
 

Sorry to continue to derail this thread.

My strategy is to have a shot that is not blocked. In order to accomplish this, I'm going to shove any robots out of my way until the shot is clear. If, during my shoving, an oppenent is in the key, then that is a three point penalty on them. I don't intend to give them penalties, but I do intend to guarantee an unblocked shot.

Re: Turret/Tower Height
 

We have the same sentiment.

Re: Turret/Tower Height
 

No, I don't think so. The contact would not be "purposeful" or "consequential" since you bumped them before or after you launched a ball. Think of the common-sense intention of the rule - seems to be to keep them from interfering with your shooting. Turning the rule into something more just because the syntax is not perfect is not generally a good strategy in my humble opinion.

Re: Turret/Tower Height
 

Team 4063 here is at 40" from the ground to the tip of our launcher. its at a 112 degree angle and makes two points everytime so far.

Re: Turret/Tower Height
 

However, we did bump them while in the process of shooting. The point of our robot is to get balls into the baskets, not to get the other teams penalties. If they insist on stopping us from our strategy (we are not forcing them to be in the key; they drove there willingly), we have no other choice than to foul them. Why would the GDC include the exception if it was not meant to be used?

Re: Turret/Tower Height
 

I would at least run this by the GDC and see what they say. It is not obvious to me that initiating contact with a bot that is near your key (to cause a penalty) is in the spirit of the rules. It seems a tortured interpretation of the rules. What if the other bot tries to retreat? Are you going to chase them?

Re: Turret/Tower Height
 

The whole point is to make them retreat. The key is a protected area with the intent being to allow for relatively uninhibited offense. If a team drives on or near your key, it is entirely your right to make contact with them to cause them to get a foul. The intent is that they are to enter that area at their own peril, and that the foul resulting is their own fault regardless of who initiates contact. G<45> was initiated to keep teams from exploiting G<28>'s exemption not to eliminate it entirely.

This is not exploitation of the rules; it is merely enforcement of them.

Re: Turret/Tower Height
 

Ditto for us (more like 26 probably). It works out for blocking because you want to shoot at something close to 60 degrees anyway, which puts the shot to 60 inches above the ground within 6 inches of your bumper, and we figured no one would want to get that close (if they do, we're in the key and have every right to touch them when wrestling for position). It keeps the CG low, ball storage smaller (exactly 3 balls), the robot lighter, and things a bit simpler.

Re: Turret/Tower Height
 

The analogy from basketball is kinda like offensive charging, only "with intent".

Our regional judge said if you are "playing the game" which is to say, attempting to retrieve and score baskets, then no technical. So there is the human judgement factor. Certainly if you have no ball to shoot, and no ball nearby to retrieve, just hitting the other guy to get a 3 point foul is not wise. You leave too much room for the judge to nail you with the technical.

Talk to your regional head judge and get their direct feedback, especially after they get their final directions from HQ. And buy them coffee the morning of your event.

Re: Turret/Tower Height
 

And their whole point might be to distract your driver into keeping you moving. A nice proximity sensor and/or big red driver station button that puts the defensive robot into auto-reverse might be all it takes to avoid fouls.

Re: Turret/Tower Height
 

Wow - that is reading a lot into the rules! Who cares if they are in the key or not? The common sense purpose is so they do not bump their opponent's bot while the opponent is shooting. The key is a place where we can take your time, aim our shooter and try to score w/o being bumped. How on earth can we expect a referee to enforce the strategy you guys are advocating? It would result in chaos.

Some are missing the whole point - teams do not "enforce the rules", teams play by them. The referees "enforce the rules" and (in my humble opinion) they will be reasonable and apply common sense. If the intent were for the opponents robot not to enter the key area, just doing so would be a penalty and it is not (that I can find).

Re: Turret/Tower Height
 

Back to my previous post.

If a robot is in a position to block my shot, I have every right to push and shove that robot so they are not in a position to block my shot (just like they have a right to agitate my robot to make it difficult to shoot). However, if during that pushing and shoving my robot is in the key, then the penalty is on the defender. If the defender doesn't want that penalty, then stay away from the key .

Re: Turret/Tower Height
 

From the ground to the tip of our shooter is 55 inches with a 45 degree hood. It works great and we can shoot over anything.

Re: Turret/Tower Height
 

Do you mean referees? I am a referee. Clarifications are still pending (at least in my channels). I have no problem with the opportunity of the rule: certainly there are situations in which you can exercise G28 contact initiation without violating G45, and I had not meant to disregard that in my posts. Philosophically and personally, I do like the strategy discussion, but my problem is how to call the difference (a perennial concern in "playing the game" calls). I do not wish for teams to assume anything not in evidence, for their own sake. That's all I'll say on the matter, but please do not base your designs on facts not in evidence.