Re: How should we react to posts?
 

I was in no way criticizing all mentors in one group, sorry if it came across that way. I had just noticed it was quite prevalent at both the competition and scrimmage we went to last year, while observing teams in their pits.

Re: How should we react to posts?
 

Watching what happens in the pits might give you a false impression of what happens during build season.

Re: How should we react to posts?
 

Totally agree - there is a lot of pressure in the pits. Students have worked themselves to death for many weeks only to see a robot that is dead in the water and dozens of cheering fans in the stands staring at an empty alliance station.

Does a mentor use this as a teachable moment and spend hours (missing multiple matches) nudging the students towards a solution? Or does a mentor jump in (when asked) and fix the robot in 15 minutes so it can go out for the next match (and afterwards explain/teach what was wrong)? It is a tough call. Mr nileshp87, I can swear to you this happens over and over again inside most teams (and with teams helping other teams during events).

Re: How should we react to posts?
 

I think that the OP on the thread mentioned had a good point, just didn't word it correctly. I have many times felt frustration for various reasons at other teams who I felt were "cheating" or doing something "unfair." However, I havn't posted with such a clearly offensive tone on a public forum where I know my comments will reflect on myself and on my team.

As for the negrep, I think that it it can be a very good way to give the member feedback and to keep them accountable. I received some negrep in some of my early posts; it helped me learn about how my statements would come across. If we didn't have an effective reputation system, how could circumspect and vetran members like Ether or SuperNerd be recognized? I think negrep is an effective tool, especially with less experienced posters.

I agree with the OP on the mentioned thread, I think mentor participation can sometimes undermine student learning despite the best intentions. To me, it goes with sponsor fabrication as ways that can make FRC less of a learning experience for students in an attempt to make a team more competitive. I am in no way trying to pick a fight, I just want to say that I understand what the OP was trying to say.

Re: How should we react to posts?
 

Why would the students not know how to repair the robot if they were being so very well taught during build season?
There may be odd cases but for the most part the answer is quite obvious and the same


If FIRST is truly about the students then look at what they are saying about the topic not what the mentors are saying.

Re: How should we react to posts?
 

You are talking to mentors who were once students in this program.

Re: How should we react to posts?
 

I have never given neg rep. I prefer neutral rep or a PM if I need to send a rebuke. Sometimes I'll respond somewhat harshly in public--but in public, I try to be at worst "chilly" to even the worst offenders. (I'm more likely to try to give a level-headed answer, after a few hours of turning over the initial post and some of the responses if possible.)

The times I have thought about giving a neg rep, I usually discover that at least 47 people (or some other significant number) already have, and I figure that I'd just be adding insult to injury and let it go. Usually, you've got to be pretty darn "thickheaded" (for lack of a better word) on an inflammatory topic to get me thinking that way seriously--unapologetic works as well.

Re: How should we react to posts?
 

Do I really need to explain this.... oh well

Because one cannot master all the sub-systems of a complex robot in 6 weeks, student or not. Mentors have the benefit of an education and years/decades of performing under pressure designing/building/repairing analogous systems.

Re: How should we react to posts?
 

Simple repairs are often obvious issues, such as a broken chain, or a loose wire. But let's say you're out there driving the robot and all of the sudden, it dies. You bring it back to the pits and do the routine checks. All of the wires are okay and everything else seems solid. The students have no idea what is wrong with the robot. A mentor has a pretty good idea of what's happening. Should he give a hint to the students on how to fix it and miss multiple matches, or should the mentor jump in and fix it, briefly explaining what happened as he works, then giving full details during a break?

As a mentor who is only one year removed from being a student, I would want the mentor to jump in and fix it because I want to compete! I worked with my teammates for 6 weeks to get there! Why would I want to see that effort go to waste as we try to identify the issue and waste precious time?

Re: How should we react to posts?
 

The students all went to lunch because someone mistimed lunch to arrive while repairs were going on.
The students are out strategizing for their next match.
The mentors you see are in fact students--you just can't see that because they're elbows-deep in the robot. (This goes both ways; your second year in FIRST is your first year as a mentor, or something like that.)
The students are trying to recover extra material to assist in the repair.
The students haven't gotten back to the pit from watching the match yet--the drive team had to go up and grab the pit crew in a hurry, then stopped to strategize with the scouts, and you happen to look in the 2 minutes when the drive team's out and the pit crew's not back down.

See, you're assuming that the students don't know how to repair the robot. I find it much safer to assume that the students do know how to repair the robot, but for any number of reasons there aren't any visible in the pit.

Also, I've got to agree with Akash. Check your PM box for the one I sent last night. 5 years on a team as a student, working with mentors 1-on-1 (and not always the same mentor in one night). I learned a lot more than I would have if I'd had to struggle through solo. I'm stepped back as a mentor, not because I don't want to step in, but because distance makes it very difficult to do so.

Re: How should we react to posts?
 

There are a number of posts in this thread that I find as aggressive and angering as the post by the OP of the other thread. I don't agree with how he stated his opinion, but I have to say that I sympathize with him, even more so after some of the reactions in this thread.


'with' being a very important word is this statement.

Re: How should we react to posts?
 

I think it might be helpful for you to assign yourself some homework. The purpose of the homework would be to gain a better and broader understanding of FRC and its purpose.

Take some time and do some searches in CD regarding this topic, finding threads that discuss it. It (the topic) goes back quite a few years. That's part of the homework assignment. The other part is to talk to other teams. The Hall of Fame teams are examples of teams who understand the bigger picture and can explain it and share their experiences of working together to build the team that builds the robot. Many teams have that understanding but the HoF teams are great role models for sharing all things FRC.

From doing my own homework - reading older threads and talking with teams and with individuals such as Andy Baker - I have a better understanding of how and why FIRST was founded and what some of the hopes and expectations were - 20 years ago. I also have an understanding of how the program has continued to grow, develop, and evolve. This would include the FRC teams and the members of those teams that have participated through the years.

If you think that FIRST is all about the students and for the students - then you don't have the full picture. If you think mentors need to go off and form their own robotics program, then you still don't have the full picture. With doing the homework and finding answers to your questions and thinking about them - then you can begin to acquire the tools necessary to help you build an understanding of the program that you have become a part of. Then - your criticisms of mentors and teams may carry a little more weight. Maybe.

To add, I've had this discussion with parents routinely for 10 years. Students aren't the only ones who get confused by the freedoms that FRC teams have with regard to forming key leadership roles on their individual teams.

Jane

Re: How should we react to posts?
 

Many a people have flamed you for your belief, but I can understand where you're coming from.

In my freshman year, I had very similar sentiments. My team seemed to do perfectly fine with 1-2 main mentors and a strong horde of students. So it bit a little when we were bested by teams who carried insane mentor to student ratios.

As I climbed the robotics ladder I learned exactly how strong the mentor/student bond was. I also learned exactly how large some of the other programs were. So it became kind of a 'If you can't beat them, join them" deal, we actively sought out mentors to assist our team. The mentors we found bring years of experience into the team, and I can say that I can spend the next 10 years in college, and I still won't learn some of the things that they have taught me.

As an alumnus on team 1261, and a 'mentor' in the loosest definition of the word, I now realize how important a true mentor is. Even today, I find myself going back to old mentors for design help. And something that's new, I find that students approach me for help on design, electrical, heck, even asking how to tap a piece of 8020.

To wrap up this post, I understand where you're coming from, but attempt to understand and learn who mentors are, why they are helping teams, and what the students are really getting out of it. If you put yourself on such a 'high' pedestal, you might just miss out on all of the fun we're having down here.

- Sunny G.

Re: How should we react to posts?
 

Quoted for truth.

Why can't we all be as sweet and nice as Jane Young?

In the meantime, let us leave grumblers and naysayers behind while the rest of us keep working forwards. We let them drag us down too easily, which is exactly what they want - misery loves company - and it leaves everyone unhappy, defamed, and bitter.

Ultimately, the only way to effect change is to do it yourself. To nileshp87: go and beat all those mentorbots that you see out there. If your student-run team can beat a mentorbot, then what is the point of a mentorbot? Then go meet a mentorbot team. To everyone else: remember that negative rep is not supposed to be for shutting down people's opinions. I hate to see people, including myself, overreact to something they disagree with. In the end, someone will be right, and someone will be wrong, but perhaps we can just wait to see what way it goes, instead of butting heads first.

Re: How should we react to posts?
 

I've been reading these posts,and collecting my thoughts ....

Niles,

I've been a mentor for the past 10 years. Every year I have 2 goals:
1) Inspire the kids to go on and do great things in thier lives
2) To not pick up a tool during build season

as for #1 -- I believe I have succeeded beyond my dreams. 100% of our seniors have gone on to college. Some have even returned as mentors (for us or other teams).

as for #2 -- I fail gloriously every year. Most times, its while teaching or explaining concepts. Sometimes its while troubleshooting a robot falure.

So, yes, I have picked up a tool and worked on the robot. But its because I want to inspire my students. Do you believe a broken robot during competition is inspiring?

If you want to understand more, I invite you to our build time. PM me.

I've been a mod on forums that are much more "in the wild" than CD. Locking a thread is at the mods discretion, but your last statement was uncalled for. You need to leave your personal feelings behind when you moderate and just ennforce the rules of the boards. Niles may have much to learn, but using your position as a bully pulpit is not how teaching should be done.