Re: Mentors on the team
 

For those who aren't aware, Team 175 - Buzz, is a member of the FIRST Hall of Fame, winning the Championship Chairman's award in 2002. I'm sure most people on these forums understand the significance of this, but for those who don't, allow me to elaborate. The below is taken from the FIRST manual, with some text bolded for emphasis.

Buzz, as a recipient of this award at the Championship level, was deemed by FIRST to be a model for other teams to emulate, as they embody the purpose of FIRST. Simply put, FIRST wants us to strive to become like Buzz and to learn from them.

Nileshp87, I suggest you take up Buzz on their offer for a tour of their facilities. There's definitely a lot that can be learned from them by anyone in the community. I know if I was in the area I'd be honoured to visit their facilities.

Re: Mentors on the team
 

@Karthik

That probably came off the reverse of what I meant to people who had not been there. I just did not feel like typing out how we had seen their team have a good balance of working together etc. etc.

It was my apology to buzz, but it was aimed directly at Buzz.

Re: Mentors on the team
 

I am on a team where our student to mentor ratio is like 5:1 and the vast majority of building is done by students and the design of the bot is done entirely by students with mentors taking looks and giving advice. But this is just the way we run it because we feel it is what will give the kids the best learning experience. As mentors we step in and take charge when it is necessary to get things going in the right direction but we always remember that the main goal of this program is to teach students.

It is not about who does what on the robot, it is about the kids learning the most and for some teams that maybe the mentors doing more on their robots than on other teams. If the best thing for some team or for some student is for the mentor to lead the construction of a robot part and for the kids to learn from the mentor, then that is absolutely the way that team should run things.

It is important to not forget the ultimate goal of FIRST and if there are teams where the kids don't learn remember that you are getting more out of it than they are. But I personally have never really seen it as a big issue that the students aren't working on the bot. It is easier to assume that teams with awesome robots like 254 or 1114 or so on are just mentor built than to recognize them for their great work.

Re: Mentors on the team
 

I can understand how you feel that way, but to use your own analogy, FRC is a competition that takes place in high school, but the challenge is that the rules and requirements of the competition are designed for someone in college. FRC is going to force you to stretch beyond what you have ever done before, and beyond what you have ever learned before. We, the mentors, want to give you knowledge to do so, and since FIRST doesn't expect you to know how to do it on your own, they have set up the competition to give you that level of support. It isn't cheating use the help that FIRST has put there for you.

There is a great quote, which I'll paraphrase since I don't recall the exact wording, from the book "The New Cool" --- "Why would I want to build a bicycle by myself, when I could build a Ferrari, with the help of a mentor?"

We just want you to be able to the do the best you can do, which is why most of us are here.

Re: Mentors on the team
 

You might want to feel like typing those things out, as it confuses people when you make very vague statements like the one you are referring to.

Re: Mentors on the team
 

I am on my phone, and typing is a bit of a pain (boarding school where internet gets shut off at night) . And not seeing something does not imply it does not exist, unless you don't believe in creationism or evolution or many other things.

Last post, just look at what the students in this thread are saying.

Re: Mentors on the team
 

Yeah man, you've got FIRST nailed. :rolleyes:

Re: Mentors on the team
 

First off, as a moderator: This post is in breach of ChiefDelphi forum rules:
With that out of the way, let me ask some questions:

1) If a team can't press a pinion gear onto a motor properly, but a mentor can take it to work and get the operation done quickly and effectively, should the mentor "sit on the sidelines"?
2) If a team has four hacksaws, 40 feet of pipe that needs cutting, and three available students, should that fourth hacksaw just sit on the shelf?
3) If a mentor's demonstration can save the team valuable time and resources, should a student tear it down and start it fresh?

I submit the answer is no to all of these. Balance is the answer.

Re: Mentors on the team
 

I've been a FRC mentor for 9 years now and have never seen one. There are many philosophies to be sure but none, that I am aware of, where the mentors do ALL the work.

No offense intended but perhaps a competition that is totally student-designed and student-built is a better environment for you. There are numerous such fun and awesome events.

FRC is orders of magnitude more complex than spelling, or any sport played with a ball (most of which I also love to play). It is a rare group of high school students that could build a first-tier FRC bot in 6 weeks. It just can't be done - the league would have to change fundamentally or die. And before we mention the many very talented seniors on most teams, remember where they learned their skills.

I started mentoring a team 9 years ago, not to re-live my youth but to influence my son's decision to become an engineer. He graduated with an EE degree 4 years ago. My daughter will graduate in May with an EE degree. Both won design competitions at school and credit their FRC experience. I continue as a mentor because the teacher/coach and I became good friends. My experience is typical, not extraordinary. FRC mentors participate with an outward-focus and a heart and mind for service.

Re: Mentors on the team
 

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

I can only hope you grow out of your blindness soon.[/quote]

Re: Mentors on the team
 

YESSS...



it looks to me most people who post in this thread are on teams with plenty of mentor help. So i will post a perspective of the opposite.
my team has a few vary capable mentors who have been doing first since pre-2000 since I have been here we only have mentors helping us for one or two days a weeks leaving us alone, except the school adviser, for the other four days. the mentors will normally help teach how to use tools and basic stuff; they will not touch the robot unless we need a custom part that we cant make ourselves(our school only has a small wood/welding shop with limited equipment). I find this method does work well for people on the team to INSPIRE stem but unless you are super committed it is difficult for people to find there place on the team (we have averaged less than 15 members for the last 5 years.). Our robot designs are usually rather effective and able to compete with the "'"best"'" teams. members of our team have learned far more than members of the local mentor heavy teams(yes I know this for a fact).
so from what i have seen more mentor help will inspire more people, but less mentor help will inspire people more.



P.S.
I have seen teams where mentors do all the work there isn't as many as some people think but there definitely are some out there.

Re: Mentors on the team
 

No offense, but exactly where (and over what time period) did you acquire this extraordinary information? Did you perform some sort of test (from a valid sample set)? If CD sees multiple students (from multiple years) make this statement (mentors design/build everything) about their team, I'm listening. Otherwise such observations are hearsay and/or anomalous.

Re: Mentors on the team
 

My team is in it's 3rd season. Year 1, we had 1 capable mentor. Year 2, we had 2. This year, we still have 2 (I'm not including myself as a capable mentor as I only graduated last year. I help with smaller tasks that involve hand tools and such.) I have the same opinion as the majority of the people who have posted on this thread.

EDIT: We also have some parents and teachers who help, but I was limiting the scope to engineering mentors with careers in the field.

Re: Mentors on the team
 

The mentor:student teacher ratio on our team is 1:10, last year it was 1:40+ (me being the one). With all due respect, I strongly disagree with your assertions - I've lived it.

Re: Mentors on the team
 

Here are my thoughts. I've been involved with FRC for for 11 years, 4 as a student and 7 as a coach/mentor. Our current "robot" team (comprised of mechanical, electrical and software teams) has about 70 students on it. We have 2 main team mentors: myself, an EE and our main team mentor, a Physics teacher. We have a couple other parents/teachers and NEMO's who are also involved but with a lesser level of technical proficiency, but they are all very dedicated and intelligent individuals.

Our entire team is student-run, as in we have students that run each of the sub-teams and are responsible for their respective responsibilities, robot-related or otherwise. We try to give every student a good amount of responsibility and level of ownership.

We also try to stay as flexible as possible. For some students we may say make this part, exactly according to this specification and do it as fast as possible. For other students we may say that we need to accomplish this task and that's it. I personally don't feel that this is an all-or-nothing debate for a team, but instead need to focus on the individual. If I have a student who gets inspired by me showing them step-by-step how to solve a problem or perform a task I'll do it, even if it includes me performing the work itself. If I have a student who prefers that I take a step back and let them learn from their mistakes with minimal guidance, I'll do that too. Most students fall somewhere in between, which as a mentor is important to recognize where they are so we can have the biggest impact. As many people post here, FIRST is about Inspiring and Recognizing the Science and Technology. As a team with a low ratio of students/mentors but still a very successful team we feel that this strategy as a whole works well, from the public perspective. However, that (to me) is not the key point of this discussion.

The point is, which is essentially what nileshp87 does not understand, is that the inspiration and recognition has no direct relation to the amount of awards that a team receives at a competition, which I assume is what really caused their misinformed post in the first place. If I can meet the goals of FIRST by working with students to make a competition winning robot, fine. If I can also meet the goals of FIRST by other activities that do not entail having a competition winning robot, that is also fine. They are both equal. I've had students on both sides of the fence. Sometimes whey the see a winning machine which truly trumps their best laid plans it inspires them to stretch the bounds of the imagination. For others, when you win it gives them a sense of accomplishment that is unrivaled.

These are just my "ravings" and I would like to inform nilesph87 that you are not alone in your opinion of FIRST teams. I know several people who feel the same way (and some of them are family :( ). Unfortunately, these people are under the impression that the point of FRC is to produce a robot that wins awards and is made by high school students. Which is completely wrong.

My apologies if this is lengthy, it is fairly late for me. I just personally get frustrated when people have this opinion (not to mention from attacking a FANTASTIC team) but in Dean's words (correct me if I'm wrong) these people "just don't get it".