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Re: Tips from a veteran Robot Inspector
Martin,
You have pointed out a common mistake when checking the rules. In the case of the Q&A the answer is referring to the bumper. Another part of the rules say that the bumper must be fully supported by robot frame. [R33] Bumpers must be supported by the structure/frame of the Robot (i.e. each end of the Bumper must be rigidly attached to the Frame Perimeter, the gap between the backing material and the frame must not be greater than ¼ in. and no section of Bumper greater than 8 in. may be unsupported). See Figure 4-7. It is for this reason, I always add..."all bumper rules must be satisfied". |
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Re: Tips from a veteran Robot Inspector
Martin,
You are not the only one who has complained about the answers. Although this may be of little comfort, please remember that for every question answered the GDC spends a great deal of time discussing the ramifications. It is not a perfect system but it is the only one we have right now. I will pass your message along when I can. |
Re: Tips from a veteran Robot Inspector
Hey Al, I just got a note that says I have to take a test in order to be an inspector. Apparently my good looks and quick wit aren't enough to qualify this year.
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Re: Tips from a veteran Robot Inspector
Gary,
I wrote the test especially for you! No cheating now. |
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The test seemed too easy to me.
The completion certificate with last years' Logomotion graphic on it made me laugh. |
Re: Tips from a veteran Robot Inspector
OK,
Time for the list after week 2 and you shouldn't be surprised. The overwhelming biggest problem for two weeks running is bumpers. Every regional LRI has reported large numbers (up to 50% of teams) have some issue with bumpers. Please get the word out to Week 3 regional events and teams that split numbers are not allowed under any circumstances. You can whine, moan and yell but you cannot get us to change our minds. Split numbers will not pass inspection. We are working for the GDC here guys and they have spoken. Please see Team UPDATE - 2012-03-06. This includes full numbers on both sides of an opening. Only one set per 90 degree interval and only four sets total. Bumpers must be a minimum of 8" length on either side of an exterior vertex and must be fully supported by the frame of the robot. This mean that the bumper may not overhang the frame to satisfy the 8" length rule. Believe me, teams all over the world are managing to get four digit team numbers in the space of an 8" bumper and make them readable. This is a no brainer. Just do it. Legal motors do not include Globe motors. Several teams at almost every event have shown up with these motors. The AndyMark gear motor is a great substitute for this motor. Painting the motor to try and hide it's identity is also not cool. If we can't identify the motor, you will need to replace it with something we can check against the checklist. While shooters have not been a real issue so far, we do check for the safety of rotating mechanisms and energy storage from springs and surgical tubing. We want everyone to be safe, especially those on the field like potential sponsors, refs and field resetters. If you want to make changes to your robot during a competition, please see your LRI prior to making the change. They have the experience to give you advice and counsel you on the legality of your change. When you make a change to your robot, any change, you must request reinspection. There are several rules that cover this and the repercussions are severe in some cases. All teams are subject to a finals inspection prior to eliminations rounds. Most events ask you to come to the inspection area following your last qualifying match to be reweighed with bumpers on and battery out. If your weight matches you first inspection weight, you will usually be passed. If we see something different or your weight is different, you will have to explain what changes you made and show them to inspectors. We can perform random full reinspections at any time during the event including during the finals inspection process. We want everyone to play but we are expected to hold everyone to the rules. |
Re: Tips from a veteran Robot Inspector
Is it fair to say that removal of a fabricated component that is broken or not working as designed is a change that doesn't require re-inspection as long as it isn't a required electrical or pneumatic component or one that results in a potential safety hazard? For example, what if a team decides to remove a broken bridge lowering component?
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Re: Tips from a veteran Robot Inspector
It's always a good idea to inform the LRI when you make any change.
In the case of removal of an item, getting yourself re-weighed will save troubles at elimination inspection time. |
Re: Tips from a veteran Robot Inspector
I think that the problem with the numbers on the bumpers has to do with being engineers and liking symmetry. You can walk down our street and tell which houses have engineers living there - every shrub and flower bed is nice and symmetrical. Looking at a robot with 4 numerals crammed on one side and nothing on the other side is equivalent to scraping your nails on a chalkboard to an engineer. So here's how we solved it; for offseason demos we like to put half red bumpers and half blue bumpers on - it gives a little color flair. We put the team number on the left front red bumper and the right front blue bumper. We "tolerate" the competition time when we're asymmetrical and we meet the rules, then the entire rest of the year we can be content.
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Re: Tips from a veteran Robot Inspector
Joe,
When you remove a damaged component with the intention of repairing or replacing ASAP then you are repairing your robot and do not need inspection. When you remove an arm or shooter or ramp, with no intention of returning it to the robot, then you are modifying your design. The inspection process is fairly simple for that. An inspector may note that you have removed something large so that when you come in for finals, we will expect a weight change. Some events may ask you to reweigh immediately so they can note the change. However, if you have a wheeled shooter and pneumatic shooter, for instance, and would like to change from one to the other, robot rules require that both be weighed with the robot at the time of your first inspection. [R03] The Robot weight may not exceed 120 lbs. When determining weight, the basic Robot structure and all elements of all additional Mechanisms that might be used in different configurations of the Robot shall be weighed together. |
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Re: Tips from a veteran Robot Inspector
Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz
...Painting the motor to try and hide it's identity is also not cool... This team broke several rules: 1) Using an illegal motor 2) Q. Does painting a motor violate rule R49? A. Painting is not listed as an exception to modifying motors in Rule [R49], so it is not allowed. |
Re: Tips from a veteran Robot Inspector
Thanks for the great comments on the FLR inspection team. I will pass along your comments. They really made me smile and I am sure Tom will be happy as well.
I have had teams paint legal and illegal parts, batteries, just about anything all in the process to make the robot look nice. Painting or removing the finish on motors are both illegal modifications. Yes it happens, most of us are experienced enough to notice. Someday LRIs may have a an option of taking team members around with us to see some of the reasons that inspections are needed. The majority of issues are really simple mistakes, not reading all the rules, or flaws in memory from years past. But yes, Virginia, there are problems, every event. |
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Some years, labelling mostly-unmodifiable parts with paint is allowed. Other years, it's apparently not.1 (This is an implication that verges on the absurd, and I'd be very tempted to take a step down the slippery slope of ignoring absurd rules, in order to bypass this potential issue. What inspector has any desire to cause a team to become irate over illegality of the paint marker they used to label a motor? I actually find myself wishing that FIRST had contradicted itself, or made another statement to the contrary, so that inspectors could instead premise their decision on a negligent misrepresentation or the likelihood of misunderstanding.) 1 I really wish FIRST would think harder about what it means to modify something. This has come up many times before. (And what about ink and tape?) |
Re: Tips from a veteran Robot Inspector
Peck,
There is not enough room for all of those in just one year. We discuss them on the LRI phone conference so we can get an idea if a trend is forming. |
Re: Tips from a veteran Robot Inspector
Hi All
Have been reading this thread with great interest as a rooky inspector at the Toronto west reg, Have taken the test got my certificate but not received any further info from first yet. But looking forward to the event I was there last year as a team mentor and had a blast. So can we rookies get some advice from the old hands? |
Re: Tips from a veteran Robot Inspector
Ian,
I suggest you get in touch with your LRI. They should have a variety of info that can be of use. Please look over the Inspection Checklist. It is laid out so that all you have to do is go through and check each item in turn. The motor section has everything listed that is a legal motor. Talk with students and have them lead you through the process. They want to show off so let them. When anything is in doubt or when an issue arises that confounds everyone, please check back with the LRI. If he can't answer, he has a variety of other people to turn to for info, including the Head Ref, FTA, Chief Robot Inspector and everyone above them if need be. One thing to remember since this happens all the time...Never accept when the team tells you an item passed at another regional. Your regional is the only one that counts. |
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Remember, there is no shame in saying you don't know the answer to a certain issue. You can always go back and ask the LRI to clarify any issue on a particular robot. Teams will appreciate your double-checking something you are not sure of instead of making an off-the-cuff decision. Make sure the teams know you are there to help them pass inspection and offer suggestions whenever possible how to make things legal. This is my second year as a Robot Inspector and it's been very rewarding working with teams in the pits. |
Re: Tips from a veteran Robot Inspector
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I made this quick gage for inspection out of 3/16" plywood. After inspecting in San Diego and fumbling with a tape measure and frequently finding the bumper gage missing from the inspection area, I thought it would make some of the common measurements quicker to check. I made two of them and brought them to Los Angeles and it seemed to saved some time. Interested in any improvements to help with simple checks.
The key dimensions are: 5" wide for legal bumper width 14" long for maximum appendage extension 2" for minimum bumper height 10" for maximum bumper height 8" for minimum bumper coverage at vertices http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/at...d=13322241 18 I'm scheduled to inspect in Central Valley and at Championships so I should get some good use out of these. Easy to make if anyone sees the benefit. |
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Re: Tips from a veteran Robot Inspector
OK,
It's been a wild season so this is my list before Champs. I am sure some of you that are coming to Champs know that something on your robot isn't quite right, was missed by an inspector, or simply you changed and didn't get reinspected. Well, the time has come to make that part compliant with the rules prior to inspection at Champs. So everyone knows, here are some of the things we will be doing, checking for and insuring you correct before match play... 1. All teams must ship their bagged robot in a crate. The first thing you will need to do is open the crate and remove the bagged robot. Have your B&T form ready when crate is opened. We will have inspectors standing by to check your B&T docs and get you signed off as soon as possible. Do not open the bag until released to do so. B&T rules are still in effect. 2. Bumpers have been an issue all season and will be checked again in St. Louis. 8" minimum length for hard parts on either side of an exterior vertex, fully supported by robot frame, with team numbers in only four locations, with no split numbers. 3. While bolt heads, welds and other fasteners can protrude from the frame perimeter, the entire robot including these protrusions still must fit inside the sizing box. 4. If your robot uses any of the ARA motors, be prepared to show documentation. 5. Globe motors are not allowed. You will need to remove them from your robot and replace as needed with a legal motor, i.e. an AndyMark gearmotor, window motor or van door motor, etc. 6. Correct wire size/breaker choice will be checked. 7. As to pneumatics, only an FRC legal compressor may be used to pressurize the robot. The one and only one, legal compressor may not exceed nominal 12V, 1.05 cfm flow rate, it must be controlled by the Crio, powered from the robot battery, filling storage on the robot at either 120 psi or 60 psi (if an off-board compressor option is chosen you may choose to only store 60 psi and save the weight of the regulator). 8. All firmware must be up to date i.e. cRIO image (v43) and DS software Rev 11.30.11.00 or newer and Jag CAN firmware at 99. 9. We will be using Inspection checklist Rev C which follows the Robot Rules Rev B for this event. I encourage all teams to go over the checklist before arriving in St. Louis (read that as today, please). 10. While we hear "but it passed in XXXX" every year, the inspectors have been trained to selectively eliminate that from their hearing database. This is the big show and everything must be tip top! If you qualified over the weekend and/or are planning a trip to Champs and/or if you were an inspector this year, please sign up for inspecting at Champs in the VIMS Championship section. I need at least 20 more inspectors for Wednesday afternoon/evening and Thursday morning. Thanks to all who have signed up already. This is going to be the biggest Championship ever. |
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It does not matter where else it passed, inspectors always approach it as if it were the first event of the season. Don't even bother saying it. Inspectors are there to help you pass inspection. Giving them agita is counterproductive. |
Re: Tips from a veteran Robot Inspector
This is my rookie year as an inspector as well. So far I've inspected in San Diego, Los Angeles and Central Valley in California.
Keeping on the theme of pneumatics, I've seen a lot of relief valves not adjusted correctly even after several competitions. Going to be insisting on this 100% at CMP's. I've also seen several yellow ring regulators being used as the primary. Even though both these are clearly on the inspection list, they aren't being checked thoroughly. I assume at Championships we are going to be insistent these are brought into compliance. Don't get me started on bumpers and numbering ... |
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It's probably relegated to the secondary position because someone at FIRST panicked when they saw 5–50 lb/in2 on old datasheets, and didn't know that this was just the the range within which the regulator was designed to be adjusted (and moreover, didn't know that regulators rarely fail catastrophically, and that there's a large difference between the rated pressure and the burst pressure anyway). Besides, at some point, Monnier issued an engineering note certifying that the regulators could actually be adjusted through 60 lb/in2 for FRC use, and has since updated their catalogue to match. The 0–100 lb/in2 gauge range tells you what gauge to buy—see later in the catalogue for examples. (Recall that the gauges go on the regulated output ports, not the one input port. This is not a pressure rating!) Quote:
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Re: Tips from a veteran Robot Inspector
Tristan,
Pre-calibrated valves have not been available in the KOP for three years. The procedure is simple enough and the solution is less costly for the KOP. The Norgren is a holdover from a time when the primary regulator was not adjustable. And yes, many of the yellow ring regulators were missed during the season. they always are. The Norgren is the one that is entirely black including the base. The supplies in the KOP are carefully chosen by the KOP engineers. If you think about it, the KOP engineers have a nearly impossible task each year. They have to come up with a cost effective grouping of parts that anyone can use, meet certain acceptable standards for safety, are readily available as spares and are durable enough that they can be used over and over in other robots. All of this in addition to their other duties and the need to sit in on GDC discussions about the game on a regular basis. Thank you Kate and Collin for the great job you do each year. |
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The old Norgren regulator (R07-153-RNEA) used around 2002 (and I believe before that) was of a similar type to the current one (R07-100-RNEA). Incidentally, the Norgren R07-100-RNEA (primary regulator, with the all-black case) is a 5–50 lb/in2 adjustable relieving regulator, rated for 300 lb/in2 maximum. It happens to work at 60 lb/in2, but that's outside the manufacturer's specified output range. Quote:
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Re: Tips from a veteran Robot Inspector
Tristan,
At one time the relief valves came pre-calibrated and teams who have those from previous KOP may not need to calibrate them. Those received in 2010 KOP may have been calibrated or not depending on the lot they came from. The remainder and those shipped in 2011 and 2012 KOP were reported to be not calibrated. The Norgren regulator was used because it could not be adjusted to anything higher than 60 psi and in most cases was shipped at that setting. |
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