Duct Tape? Anyone?
 

Hey,

Does anyone know what the rule on duct tape is this year? Is it allowed to create parts and hold them together or is it a no on using it?

Robo Raiders :cool:

Re: Duct Tape? Anyone?
 

Duct tape under no circumstances is considered a fastener.

Re: Duct Tape? Anyone?
 

Is it expressly disallowed? I see no mention of it anywhere in the rules.

Re: Duct Tape? Anyone?
 

I know for like 3$ a roll, I'm bringing some for emergencies.

Re: Duct Tape? Anyone?
 

Duct tape is not expressly disallowed. For instance you can use it as a label.

Re: Duct Tape? Anyone?
 

Saying duct tape is not disallowed is correct, however it was disallowed (illegal) for a long time because FIRST does not want to see robots held together by duct tape. Aside from the look of it, it can also be a safety issue.

Use zip ties, or bolts, or rivets, or velcro, or any of the hundred other styles of fasteners.

Re: Duct Tape? Anyone?
 

What is the source of this statement (other then 5 year old rules)? Perhaps a better statement is "Duct Tape under no circumstances is a good idea as a fastener on a FIRST robot".

Re: Duct Tape? Anyone?
 

Not that I'm planning on using duct tape on my robot, but which rule would prohibit the use of duct tape as a fastener?

Perhaps I'm just missing it in this year's manual, but wasn't 2008 the last year that using adhesive-backed tape as a fastener was prohibited?

Re: Duct Tape? Anyone?
 

Although duct tape is not disallowed in the rules, it is not as effective as other things such as zip ties or bolts. Its more of a safety concern.

Re: Duct Tape? Anyone?
 

Like they say, "If you can't screw it or glue it... Duct it..."

Re: Duct Tape? Anyone?
 

There are plenty of applications where tape is perfectly appropriate. If you describe what you are using it for perhaps we could offer a better opinion as to whether it is a good idea or not.

Re: Duct Tape? Anyone?
 

I am reflecting on a discussion on this subject with a GDC member following a post I made on this subject. The topic was that duct tape has never been disallowed on FRC robots. However, there have been limits on the use of adhesive tape from year to year. The thought that it was illegal is a myth, based on the statements from Dean and Woodie, that if you think about other solutions, something better looking than duct tape is bound to come up. In other words duct tape is cool, it just doesn't look right on an FRC robot. My statement on it's not being a fastener is based on the fact that it pulls apart. It is simply not the same as a threaded fastener, a wire tie, or a rivet. It should not be considered a insulating material either. Many products contain metal and are actually conductive and there is no way to distinguish conductive from non-conductive by sight.

Re: Duct Tape? Anyone?
 

Would this be fair to say:

Duct tape is allowed on the robot, but use as a fastener might invite further scrutiny from inspectors, especially with regards to electrical compliance and safety.

?

Re: Duct Tape? Anyone?
 

I would say that is accurate.

Re: Duct Tape? Anyone?
 

It boils down to this:

Can you use duct tape? Yes.

Should you use duct tape? Probably not.

Re: Duct Tape? Anyone?
 

As I have to frequently remind the students on my team:

"The only properly engineered use of duct tape is the sealing of air duct."

If you are not sealing air duct (which I have seen duct tape used for on an FRC robot), then you are not using the proper material for the application and you have a design issue.

Re: Duct Tape? Anyone?
 

(emphasis mine)
The question of duct tape being allowed is a valid one; in fact, it was disallowed - except for labeling purposes, which you encourage - in years past.

Re: Duct Tape? Anyone?
 

I agree with Taylor- I seem to recall being quite annoyed that we couldn't use double sided tape to secure non-functional panels with logos on them as far back as 2002/2003 I believe (though I could be wrong).

Re: Duct Tape? Anyone?
 

Around here contractors don't even use it for ducts, because it disintegrates too quickly from the duct temperatures and exposure.

Re: Duct Tape? Anyone?
 

It's been ingrained in me over the years that duct tape is always a big no-no on FRC robots, so I always assumed it was explicitly disallowed by the rules.

However, this year the students on my team wanted to use an 8" diameter air duct angling elbow as a passive angler for our shooting assembly and wanted to secure and smoothen the elbow joiners with ducting tape (to which I reacted -- illegal!!!). However, after looking over the rules and realizing that this is not actually an illegal material, this application seems a bit more appropriate to me.

Re: Duct Tape? Anyone?
 

It would help if we knew what the application was. Covering some bases...
*If you want to secure down a component: I'd say go to a local hardware store and get some Velcro. My two cents.
*If you want hold frame members together: Not at all stable, and probably not safe. Find a different way to attach them.
*As a covering: Id say ok on anything that doesn't involve electricity.
*As a marker: We do it with our wiring. A parent gave us some gaffers tape, and we mark different wires and components with a certain colored tape, so we can easily determine which thing is attached where. Although it isn't necessarily duct tape, duct tape can be used in the same manner. besides, as far as I know, duct tape colors are far more widely available than, say, electrical tape colors.

Re: Duct Tape? Anyone?
 

How do do you attach the Velcro? I fail to see how stick-backed velcro is any better than duct tape.

We're using a bit of duct tape as a hinge for a low-load part. I can't think of an alternative to it that would work as well,

Re: Duct Tape? Anyone?
 

Actually, you should not use duct tape to seal an air duct. :p
http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/...tape-HVAC.html

Re: Duct Tape? Anyone?
 

A few years ago the rules were changed to allow tape. It might have been the year after the "non-stick pad vs. non-stick tape" debacle. (If a product was labeled as a non-stick pad it was allowed, but if it was labeled as tape it was not. Talk about lawyering the rules.)

Anyway, I remember someone from the GDC, probably Dave Lavery, commenting that while tape was now legal don't go overboard and make them ban it again.

Re: Duct Tape? Anyone?
 

Have you used it? We've been securing our electronics with sticky-backed velcro for years, and it works brilliantly. The industrial strength stuff is quite awesome.

Re: Duct Tape? Anyone?
 

+1. Velcro also gives an added layer of electrical isolation.
If FRC trusts Velcro enough to keep the field elements secure while six 150 lb robots slam into them, we'll trust it with our Victors.

Re: Duct Tape? Anyone?
 

Clark,
Electrical tape is actually available in at least all EIA colors. The 3M color wheel, Digikey part STD-C-ND, although a little expensive is ideal for wire marking.
Joe, I am not sure using duct tape for a hinge could be considered anything other than a fastener. There has got to be a better device.

Re: Duct Tape? Anyone?
 

It's ironic that duct tape will fail over time and shouldn't be used for taping ducts. All good HVAC guys use aluminum foil tape.

I would always bring a roll of duct tape for emergency repairs at competition but would never use it to build the robot other than prototyping.

Re: Duct Tape? Anyone?
 

Never been disallowed? I know that in 2008 we used aluminum tape to seal our vacuum assembly, and was told by the head inspector that no tape of any kind other than electrical tape used as an insulator was allowed on the bot. We had to remove (as much as possible) the tape, and ended up using strip caulk (dum-dum) to seal things. It was messy, looked much worse, and NOT the best solution, but we passed inspection.

Re: Duct Tape? Anyone?
 

Martin,
The reference is specifically to Duct Tape as always disallowed. However in the 2008 the following rule was in effect.

<R38> Adhesive backed tapes shall not be used as a structural fastener, or to connect two or more parts together. Adhesive backed tapes may only be used as follows:
Textured or coated tapes may be used to provide an alternate surface finish or treatment to a
portion of the ROBOT.
Velcro tape, any hook and loop tape or double-sided sticky foam may be used for attaching components to the ROBOT.
Reflective tape may be used with optical sensors in small amounts.
Adhesive backed tape and labels may be used for labeling purposes on wires, cables,
pneumatic lines, etc.
Electrical tape may be used as an electrical insulator.
I think that bullet one may have covered your use of aluminum tape. Was there something else in the discussion I am missing?

Re: Duct Tape? Anyone?
 

I'll have to add that to our list of things we want to order; Thanks!