Obscured bumper numbers?
 

I noticed a few robots have appendages that obscure the team number when the appendage is in use.They range from a thin bridge arm that splits the number to a full ball collector as wide as the bot. Legal or not? I really don't know but my gut says illegal based on the number of bots that did not block the view of the number or am i getting into that shaddy area of rule intent.

Re: Obscured bumper numbers?
 

Only rule I can find relevant to this is R35, which according to my interpretation, requires that a robot be able to be clearly identified from 100ft away. If a robot can still be identified from that distance, even with a blocked number (appendage) then the rule is met, IMO.

Then if you look in the Q&A you'll find this:

According that the GDC's interpretation, if the numbers are obscured, you're not in compliance with R35?

Seems like there's the common sense interpretation of this rule and the literal interpretation of the rule. Maybe someone should ask in the Q&A?

Re: Obscured bumper numbers?
 

If you're unsure, put your team number up on the robot somewhere as well! That way, when the bumpers are obscured by your manipulator, the number is still visible just above them.

Re: Obscured bumper numbers?
 

Jon, that doesn't solve the obscured number rule. You could almost read the rules as the only place you can have team numbers is on the bumpers this year. I said almost.

Re: Obscured bumper numbers?
 

As far as the bumpers go, they're pretty picky about the numbers and how many times you're allowed to have them.

Seems like having the number elsewhere would solve the issue of it being blocked by an appendage, though you'd still technically be in violation of R35.

Re: Obscured bumper numbers?
 

Look at it from the intent/spirit of the rules. There's nothing ruling against having an appendage that covers your bumper - in fact, such an appendage is pretty much necessary to manipulate the bridge, which is part of the game design. If that covers your team number on that side, its still visible on the bumpers on the other sides.

As for R35, the GDC is really going for readability. As a thought experiment, lets imagine the GDC hasn't been as picky about the numbers as they have been. You get to competition and teams 20 and 2020 are both there. Team 20 decided they wanted to display their number on both sides of their ball gatherer so its equally visible from multiple angles and for aesthetics, especially if a manipulator is lowered between them. Team 2020 decided they wanted to split their number on both sides of their ball gatherer, so it wasn't squished on one side, and for aesthetics. Now, looking at the front of the robot, the team numbers look identical - 20 on the left, and 20 on the right. How do the refs or scouters know which is which at a brief glance?

The whole intent of the bumper team number rules is to ensure that the numbers are readable and teams won't be confused. It helps the refs on the field, it helps the scouters in the stands, and it helps the friends/family that come to cheer your robot on.

If you have an appendage that blocks your team number on one side of the robot, and you know that appendage is going to be deployed most of the match, you'll likely want to put your team number above the bumpers on the robot somewhere - R35, and the GDC's quoting it in the Q&A should only apply to bumpers, not to what's displayed on the robot - anything displayed on the robot is a non-functional decoration, and the only real limits on those are that it can't interfere with other teams vision detection..

Re: Obscured bumper numbers?
 

A test for me would be the answer to this question. "How long does your appendage cover the numbers on your bumper?" If the answer is 'most of the match', 'the entire match' or 'as soon as auto starts' I would think you have crossed into the "obscured" definition. If the answer is 'only when we are picking up a ball' then I would think that prudence suggests that you are not obscuring the number.

Re: Obscured bumper numbers?
 

What do you say to a team that built their bot so that the bumper numbers are clearly visible during the whole match and they lose to a team that has a harvester down the whole match obscuring the team number? Maybe i'm reading to much into this but i feel this might cause some anguish at comps this year.

Re: Obscured bumper numbers?
 

I know past years rules do not apply to the current game. But the combination of appendage & locomotion game piece would obscure the number on our bumper. Nothing was ever said. of it.

I do not think the inspectors will make an issue unless it was obvious that obscure to the number was the intent. Just who was that masked robot anyway?

Re: Obscured bumper numbers?
 

Devils advocate- " Head ref, head ref!!!! I know we just got beat in the finals but according to Q&A that teams bumpers were obscured during the match."

Re: Obscured bumper numbers?
 

From the inspector standpoint, we check the bumpers for compliance and then check for appendage projection. We do not inspect for how the robot acts on the field. If the head ref calls us to check on something that he/she sees during repeated matches we will report back our findings and then make a decision. The head ref, LRI and FTA discuss items throughout the weekend and when needed will come to a consensus or call for a better decision. We each have appropriate phone numbers, one of which is the head guy. LRIs have my phone number.

Re: Obscured bumper numbers?
 

Q. Can the bumpers be covered at any point by a dynamic appendage on the robot?
A. There are no rules prohibiting this.

from early on in build season

Re: Obscured bumper numbers?
 

I guese someone would have to ask if team numbers on bumpers......but nobody will, alittle late in the season.

Re: Obscured bumper numbers?
 

Is it just me or is this bumper rule stuff getting a tad ridiculous. I know people want to see our team number but come on this is crazy there is more engineering going into the bumpers than the robot...

Re: Obscured bumper numbers?
 

In a lot of engineering projects, you spend more time working on the "boring" specs the customer wants, instead of the "fun" aspects of the project. When designing a new car, not everyone can work on designing the engine. You still need to design the door handles, trunk latches, and all the other small, boring parts that are in a car.

Re: Obscured bumper numbers?
 

And a crazy ton of effort goes into car bumpers. Between FMVSS standards, and the implications with regards to crash, energy transfer, Insurance ratings, air bag impact sensors, airflow, styling, license plate brackets, fit and finsh, getting paint to match and faid at the same rate, pedestrian impact, low speed impact (Canadian, European, and US standards), moderate speed impact, high speed impact, manufacturability, materials, thermal expansion effects.... Bumpers have come a long way, and are designed to do a lot more than people often realize.

Re: Obscured bumper numbers?
 

Whatever realworld effort is going into bumper design, the only chance we get to shine is with changing them red for blue and attachment to a robot frame. If FIRST were to entertain some engineering-like requests for bumper design from us, THAT might be un-boring. I mean, a case of Great Stuff in a ripstop nylon sack? Or design a game during which the required on-board accelerometer (from air bags?) registers a minimum value because that robot's bumper is so good at absorbing collision energy. A demolition derby-style game sure would have crowd appeal, not to mention that most of the teams' kids really only want to build a battlebot anyways. And I KNOW when this will happen too. The year I get to the pool supply store in September for their pool-noodle closeout, buy a bunch, will be the big bumper innovation year for FIRST. Yahooooooooo! Can't wait.

Re: Obscured bumper numbers?
 

As a likely "guilty party" in this discussion, I would be disappointed to see our entire appendage (or anybody else's) banned because it partially obscured one of four sets of team numbers for the portions of the match when it was deployed. That would effectively ban appendages from deploying anywhere near the bumper zone. Almost any appendage that is able to manipulate the bridge will obscure somebody's view of the bumper numbers at some point. This was never an issue with the large roller claws in Logomotion, and I expect that there will be a lot of obscured team numbers this year as well.

Re: Obscured bumper numbers?
 

Maybe this would be a good time to start a 3 second rule or is it 5 seconds in the key in basketball. Not saying a ref would look for it specifically but if they notice a bumper obscured they could point at bot and count to five. Guess they would have to come up with a penalty too.

Re: Obscured bumper numbers?
 

No, no, no...
Let's stop and think about the spirit of this rule. The goal of the rule is for easy identification of your robot on the field. Was this rule intended to create a specific design constraint? No. It's intended to ensure that all bumpers have numbering that is easy to read. Is anyone going to exploit this as a strategy to get more points? No.

If you have an appendage that stays down during the entire match, it's appropriate to put the number where it won't be obscured - and I think most teams will do that naturally. If you've got something like this, then you do what you can and don't worry about it.

But please, let's not start talking about penalties and countdowns. The next thing you know, we'll be arguing about whether the GDC should require a certain buffer space for team numbers, so that 4-digit teams are not at a disadvantage to 2-digit teams. Or what happens if two robots get into a pushing contest, and one of their numbers is obscured? Who gets penalized? Is this where [G44] applies?

Re: Obscured bumper numbers?
 

I was waiting for Tristan to post a page long explanation, but given that hasn't happened, here's my attempt.

I think the important point is that inverted, fragmented, and upside down are all static. They don't change over time. Obscured has both a static and a dynamic definition. The simplest answer is that the GDC meant the static definition. How could you obscure a bumper number statically? Use roman numerals, binary, cyrillic, powers of 2, a non-numeric font (windings), etc.


Given the explicit answer above, I think that extrapolating an implicit illegality based on some definitions of obscure isn't correct.

Re: Obscured bumper numbers?
 

Why not practice engineering skills by applying them to bumpers?
I know our team isn't the only one that can change bumpers this way!

Our team certainly did, and can change bumpers in about 2.5 minutes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=te7Pk...maSzJM9SL9n51D

Re: Obscured bumper numbers?
 

Seems like the GDC has confirmed the definition of "obscured" in the answer below as the static sense.

Q. We are deciding to use a square U frame. So, we have to split the 4th bumper into 2 sections. Because of this, we can't decide how to place "3490" on our Bumper. Should we place the 4 numbers on 1 side, or should we split 34 and 90 across the Bumper. R35 doesn't explain how to handle this situation. FRC3490 2012-01-13
A. Per [R35] team numbers must be "clearly visible from a distance of not less than 100 ft, so that judges, referees, and announcers can easily identify competing Robots." Thus they may not be obscured in any way (disconnected, out of order, rotated, upside-down, mirror imaged, etc).

Re: Obscured bumper numbers?
 

Could somebody ask Q&A, " When an appendage is deployed is it permissable to obscure, as in not make clearly visible, team numbers that are on the bumpers?" I really would like to know if i just don't get it. I went thru the last six pages of photos and most of the videos and it appears to me that the majority of teams have built to this constraint(not to block numbers).

Re: Obscured bumper numbers?
 

I don't think it was building to that constraint (which i don't believe is a constraint), rather than just choosing to not do a drop down pickup or similar.

Re: Obscured bumper numbers?
 

The following question has been posted on Q&A:

"If one of the four sets of team numbers is temporarily covered by a deployed appendage, is that a violation of <R35>?"

(edit: somehow, the "<R35>" got stripped off the version that shows in Q&A. Hope that doesn't cause them too much confusion)

Re: Obscured bumper numbers?
 

This question has already been asked, granted it wasn't specific about the team numbers but its pretty straight forward to me. In another question they even defined what they meant by "obscured" and it is in the static sense. In that your numbers are a standard type font that aren't upside down or mirrored or split between 2 8 inch sections of bumper or backwards.

:deadhorse:

Re: Obscured bumper numbers?
 

I was looking at it all wrong. Q&A says it is ok to block the numbers. Now, what is teporarily? how many teams wil add a larger collection device now.