Lost Bag and Tag
 

Hello,
Brand new to Chief Delphi but my team needs some serious help.
We are extremely unorganized and seem to have "misplaced" the bag and tag bags. We found the tags, right where they started in the KOP box however the bags themselves are completely missing, vanished.
If there is anyway we can get some more bags or if there are any teams in the Mountain View/Bay Area area that have an extra bag we would be eternally grateful.
Thank you so much in advance.

Re: Lost Bag and Tag
 

A good question is why did this come up now? over 18 hours past the "Stop Build" time?

But this brings up a question, does it have to be the FIRST supplied bag, or would any equal size/quality bag do?

Re: Lost Bag and Tag
 

I have no clue regarding the type of bag but I assume its supposed to be FRC supplied.

Last night, midnight, there was only three students actually working on the robot, by the time we realized we didn't have the bags, everyone was basically asleep. We haven't touched the robot or made any modifications seeing as nobody has actually been in the lab since then.

Any help would be great since I know each KOP was supposed to come with two separate bags.

Re: Lost Bag and Tag
 

We MAY have an extra bag you can use, I'll ask my mentors. It may be used for our bumpers, though...

Re: Lost Bag and Tag
 

I guess that's understandable, for the record, I wasn't accusing anyone of continuing to work after 12:00.

Regardless, you still have a pretty big problem on your hands. If we weren't so far away, I'd definitely help you guys out considering we have a few extra from last year. Hope things work out, best of luck.

Re: Lost Bag and Tag
 

Thank you very much in advance regardless of whether you have the extra or not.
It's my understanding that you don't actually need to bag your bumpers given the 30lb. of extra material you are allowed to bring.

Re: Lost Bag and Tag
 

It's a large, heavy-duty plastic, clear(ish) bag. I remember them being in the same tote as the tags.

The other thing that you need to do, right away, is contact FRC HQ. Explain your situation (and that you are working on finding an available bag in the area). They will tell you what you need to do.

Re: Lost Bag and Tag
 

We're keeping half of our robot and working on it. Please note that by half I mean half of the physical robot, not half the weight of the robot. No way half our robot's weight is 30 pounds. :p

Re: Lost Bag and Tag
 

At 8:31 am tomorrow EST I suggest you call 800-871-8326 ext. 0.

Re: Lost Bag and Tag
 

Sorry to hear your Team has lost its bags.

Tip for next year. Give the bag and tags to a teacher or mentor in charge for safe keeping. This is what our team did. The teacher gave them back to us a few days before bag and tag.

The team put them in a safe place in our work room and told everyone what they were for and not to touch them. We also included multiple copies of the stop build day form just in case we could not access it from the computer on stop build day.

Re: Lost Bag and Tag
 

By now I assume you have contacted First and found out how to handle the bag but you must get it bagged and tagged ASAP and fill out the paperwork.

To others who claim to be working on parts of their robot or have kept parts of their robot to work on after the stop build period. This is not allowed. You must bag your entire robot and bumpers if you have made them already.

[R19]
The Robot (including items intended for use during the competition in alternative configurations of the Robot, excluding items permitted per Rule[R26]) must be bagged or crated (as appropriate for your event), and out of team hands by the shipment deadline specified in the FRC Administrative Manual, Section 5.

[R20]
Teams must stay “hands-off” their Robot from Stop Build Day until their first competition, during the period(s) between their competitions, and outside of pit hours while attending competitions; there are no restrictions on when software may be developed. Specific exceptions are as follows:
A. On days a team is not attending an event, they may continue development of any items permitted per Rule[R26], but must do so without interfacing with the Robot.
B. Teams attending 2-day events may access their Robots per the rules defined in the Administrative Manual,Section 5.7, Robot Access Period - for Teams Attending 2-Day Events.


[R26]
Teams may bring a maximum of 30 lbs of Fabricated Items to each competition event to be used to repair and/or upgrade their Robot at the competition site. The Operator Console and any battery assemblies (see [R03]-A) are not
applicable.

This means you can assemble spares, manufacture parts that will upgrade the parts currently in place on the robot (i.e. making something that is stronger than the part currently on the robot) or simply hold out parts that are already finished like bumpers, if and only if they total less than 30lbs. Any other items must be assembled at your event.

Re: Lost Bag and Tag
 

Al, I read upgrade in [R26] to also mean add functionality. Taking a robot with no ball manipulation ability and giving it some is certainly an upgrade.

Re: Lost Bag and Tag
 

I don't think the following Q/A agrees with you.

If they had wanted to ban new mechanisms, they would have explicitly said so in the answer to the Q/A, rather then referring to [R22].

Re: Lost Bag and Tag
 

Joe,
R22 relates to modified COTS so I was and still am confused by this response.

Re: Lost Bag and Tag
 

It seems pretty clear to me. You buy things that are COTS. You modify them, cut, drill, mount things and now it is called a Fabricated item. You are allowed 30lbs of fabricated items. There are no restrictions on what is a fabricated item, other than it used to be a COTS that you modified in any way.

Modified COTS is a fabricated item. Measured and cut stock is fabricated. Measured, cut, mounted, repeat, assemble is fabricated.

Re: Lost Bag and Tag
 

Here is my interpretation of the rule- and please jump in if you think I'm wrong. It has always been my understanding that you can hold back 30lbs worth of your competition-ready robot. For example, when there have been years of extreme weather when teams have been unable to make it to their shops to build, FIRST has upped this limit to 60lbs dictating that you only have to ship half your robot.

Lets say your team puts a shooter on the robot but prior to shipping, decides to remove it for use on their practice robot. This shooter counts as part of their 30 lbs which they can fine tune and then bring with them to the competition for reinstallation on the machine. If however, they leave it on the robot as bagged and bring an identical duplicate mechanism to the competition, this counts as a replacement part and is not included in the weight allowance. If the team leaves the shooter on the robot and builds an improved version of the same mechanism, this would count as part of the 30lbs since it is unlike the one on their machine. However, if only the shooter wheel was different, they could remove the wheel and count the shooter chassis as a direct replacement part, excluded from the 30 lbs and the wheel itself as an upgrade part - part of the 30 lbs.

Furthermore, if a team ships a kit chassis and then decides to build a 30 lb loader and shooter, they can indeed bring this mechanism as a an "upgrade part" to the competition limited by the 30 lbs. BUT if they were to build the shooter and bag it, the kit chassis, motors and control system could be brought seperately as a COTS item provided it had not been assembled or modified in any way.

To take this even further, run with it if you will- this team could bag nothing, bring the kit chassis and all components in unassembled state, fabricate a custom launcher after the build date weighing less than 30lbs and bring the whole lot to the competition. They could walk in and assemble the KOP frame, install their custom <30lb shooter and install their COTS control system components to effectively assemble their robot at the competition without being affected by StopBuild day. I would feel that this contravenes the spirit of the competition but could be a strategy for time-strapped rookies.

Direct replacement parts and components as purchased from a supplier would be excluded from the 30lb limit. Ie: a window motor is considered a COTS item, but bolt it to a custom mounting plate that is not currently in your bag and tag, the window motor and mounting plate bolted together count as a fabricated item for part of your 30 lbs. Unbolt the window motor from said plate and only the plate counts as part of your 30 lbs.

If an identical plate exists on your robot as bagged, the window motor and plate in any state of attachment are counted as replacement parts.

Is this correct? I have talked with quite a few teams and this seems to be the understanding.

Re: Lost Bag and Tag
 

I don't agree with your fabricated replacement part being exempt from the 30 lbs fabricated item limit.
Any and all fabricated items you bring in through the door counts as a portion of your 30 lbs fabricated limit.

Only completely stand-alone COTS parts in off-the-shelf condition are exempt from the 30 lb. fabricated limit.
Raw material not cut to fit your robot is also exempt from the fabrication limit.

By your strained logic, an unlimited parade of completely identical robots would be allowed. :rolleyes:

Re: Lost Bag and Tag
 

Mark- after reading over the rule again, I agree with you now. - Even if teams bring a part identical to that on the robot, if it is fabricated, it must be included in the limit.

"Repair and/or upgrade."

Re: Lost Bag and Tag
 

You are correct- However, I do remember a number of years back being very upset by a team that had built a clone robot after Stop Build day. They brought the clone with them as a giant replacement part! The inspectors had reportedly scrutinized each one and had determined that they were identical. The team used them in a tag-team setup when their shipped robot broke, the clone was brought in to take its place. I think they swapped the control system though.

Re: Lost Bag and Tag
 

Although the responses have cleared up the questions regarding the 30 lb. limit on manufactured materials, it hasn't really helped my team out much regarding the bag issue.

Hopefully we have secured one bag but I still want to know if we have to use the FRC provided bags, or if there is any other way to Bag and Tag.

Re: Lost Bag and Tag
 

FIRST (800-871-8326 ext. 0) has the answer to your Bag question, we do not.
We can only conjecture, imagine, ponder, and express our opinions.
None of which are ultimately of any use to you whatsoever.
We are waiting to hear the final answer that you get.

Getting people to send you spare bags is actually pretty useful I suppose, but not making FIRST aware that your robot is and continues to be in violation of the Bag rule is decidedly not.

Why have you not contacted them directly?

Re: Lost Bag and Tag
 

Really? You haven't addressed this yet? Did you contact FIRST HQ?? They will have a definitive answer - do not rely on Chief Delphi for an answer to this question.

As has already been posted:

This is a major deal! If I were you I would just get it in ANY BAG- even if it's a bed sheet, blue poly tarp, burlap sac or an empty beanbag chair.

Get a security tag on it ASAP!

Complete the lockup form and fill out the bag and tag non-compliance form. Include a full copy of this thread.

Re: Lost Bag and Tag
 

Contacting FIRST is absolutely the way to go. Until you have done so, you cannot consider your problem solved, even if you do get a bag. Many teams at this point have used their's up.

If you happen to need help at SVR, talk to some of the teams. We'll be there and are happy to help. All you have to do is ask.:)

Re: Lost Bag and Tag
 

Thanks a lot for the suggestions.
I have called FIRST, however my schedule makes it difficult to actually call them at 8:31 EST. I left a message and hopefully will get this all resolved.
Both Mountain View and Monta Vista have been gracious enough to offer us their extra bags so that part of the problem is solved.
By tomorrow I hope that FRC will have made contact and we can resolve the whole issue.

Once again, thanks to everyone for the suggestions, resolutions and support

Re: Lost Bag and Tag
 

The urgency of your situation really cannot be emphasized enough. You or someone else from your team needs to be calling FIRST nonstop until you resolve this. The longer direct contact is not made between FIRST and your team, the deeper your hole becomes.

Re: Lost Bag and Tag
 

<sigh> You are making a joke, right? You do realize that my suggestion of the 8:31 EST time frame was to allow Operations to put down their cup of coffee before picking up the phone.
They will answer phones 8:30-5pm EST, M-F.
This really isn't about your schedule anymore. You need to be thinking a little broader.
Best wishes for continued effective problem-solving this season. We are just trying to help you.

I would suggest that you also contact your Regional Director at this point. You can find out how to reach this person by doing some searching here: http://www.usfirst.org/regional-contacts

Re: Lost Bag and Tag
 

Okay... have you put it IN one of these bags yet with a security seal?

Re: Lost Bag and Tag
 

I empathize with you as you lost the bags, but any plastic bag will probably suffice as long as appropriately tagged and lock-out paperwork is followed.

What concerns me most about this thread is the discussion about continuiing work. The entire concept of the build season is that work STOPS midnight-local for everyone.

I suggest everyone review the rules around work stoppage (mechanical and electrical). There are allowances for spares/etc within the confines of the rules, but essentially all work stops as of this past Tuesday.

It is not fair to other teams that follow the prescribed schedule for anyone to violate the schedule and the rules are specific about what is allowed and not.

I would also remind everyone that, as Cheif Delphi's site has become the defacto FRC info site, this does become somewhat a record-keeping site for other teams/FIRST referees to refer to - AKA your comments are public knowledge as to "skirting" the rules.

Re: Lost Bag and Tag
 

This has some truth, but you are wrong on one point. FIRST allows for upgrade parts to be brought in, lets say our turret was functioning poorly, or needed programming, we could keep this and bring it in as an "upgrade" part of the withholding allowance. I see no problem with this.

Re: Lost Bag and Tag
 

As has been stated in previous posts, the rules states that teams can bring up to 30lbs of fabricated parts to repair and/or upgrade their robot. Let's say my robot has no shooter. During the time after stop build day and my first event, I can work on a shooter (that is currently not a part of the robot) and develop it. When I attach my <= 30lb shooter to my competition robot at competition I am upgrading my robot's functionality by adding a shooter.

This process is completely legal and is actually one of the main reasons the formerly named "withholding allowance" was implemented in FRC.


EDIT:

With regard to the topic, you absolutely must call FIRST until after your phone stops ringing you hear a person say, "Thank you for calling USFIRST. This is *name* speaking. How may I help you?"

Obviously, that is not what they will actually say but you should get the point. You're rapidly approaching 72 hours of the robot not being in the bag and that is NOT OK!!!

Re: Lost Bag and Tag
 

Get your robot sealed up in whatever bag you have, you will have to fill out the non compliance form, and if the same procedure as last year is followed there will need to be signatures from the head inspector(s), head ref, and it seems like one other person. Just to alert you to the gravity of the situation, this could prevent your team from competing this year in any event.

I recall doing two of these forms last year for teams simply forgetting their lock up form, and it does take a while to track down everyone that needs to sign it and tell them the story, all the while your team will be sitting looking at your robot in the bag not allowed to open it or begin working on it until the forms have been completed.

Good Luck.

Re: Lost Bag and Tag
 

fox,
I have not heard of this scenario but there is no way that a competition team (Head Ref, FTA, LRI) would allow them to tag team two robots. Most regionals would/should not even allow the second clone into the building. This competition is about one and only one robot built during the current build season. While you can build a second robot and use it for spares, (lot's of teams do this) you can't bring a complete second robot to compete.

Re: Lost Bag and Tag
 

To jump way back in the thread Joe and Wetz,
The answer still is confusing. Why answer the question with a reference to fabricated items when the question is about upgrades?

Re: Lost Bag and Tag
 

FIRST seems to have omitted the term glossary it usually includes in the Introduction section of the Game Manual that clearly defines capitalized terms such as "Fabricated Items" and "Mechanism". If they stuck it somewhere else, please point it out - I sure as heck couldn't locate it.

So all teams have to go by is the 2011 definitions. If FIRST didn't take it upon themselves to provide definitions for 2012, teams must presume that the definitions didn't change. At this point, if FIRST released the definitions and any were significantly different from the 2011 defines, I think you'd have pitchforks and torches lining up in Manchester.

Anyway:

MECHANISM, 2011 – a COTS or custom assembly of COMPONENTS that provide specific functionality on
the ROBOT. A MECHANISM can be disassembled (and then reassembled) into individual
COMPONENTS without damage to the parts

FABRICATED ITEM, 2011 – any COMPONENT or MECHANISM that has been altered, built, cast,
constructed, concocted, created, cut, heat treated, machined, manufactured, modified, painted,
produced, surface coated, or conjured partially or completely into the final form in which it will be
used on the ROBOT.

[R26, 2012 Manual] - Teams may bring a maximum of 30 lbs of Fabricated Items to each competition event to be used to repair and/or upgrade their Robot at the competition site. The Operator Console and any battery assemblies (see [R03]-A) are not applicable.

******

Shooters, bridge tenders, etc. are "custom assemblies of components that provide specific functionality on the robot". They are therefore MECHANISMS.

A MECHANISM, by definition, is a FABRICATED ITEM.

Conclusion: teams may bring a maximum of 30 lbs of FABRICATED ITEMS - including MECHANISMS - to each competition.

Also, just because a team may have had a shooter on their bot at some point in the build, they do not HAVE to put that shooter in the bag. The team has full control over the functionality they choose to put in the bag. They have a right to withhold a portion of that functionality, putting the balance in the bag. They work to improve the shooter mechanism after stop build, they bring it to the venue legally as part of the allowable 30 lbs., and they then UPGRADE their robot's functionality with the shooter once they remove the bot from the bag.

Re: Lost Bag and Tag
 

R22: "...Once a COTS item is modified in any way, it becomes a Fabricated Item [emphasis mine]." It's, oddly, the only place they defined Fabricated Item, but it seems like a reasonable definition. Bring in as many unmodified COTS parts as you like, and 30lbs of modified COTS parts (=Fabricated Items). i.e., There is no restriction on what these modified COTS parts can be upgrading or used for, so long as they total less than 30lbs. It's one of the GDC's "read the rules, there's no restriction beyond them" calls. I don't think it even requires the 2011 definitions, though it certainly works that way.

Re: Lost Bag and Tag
 

Never the less it did indeed happen and I confirmed it with a couple of my former teamates. If my memory serves me right, it was the second year of the GTR regional - 2002? - stack attack. I remember discussing it amongst ourselves and when we asked if they had entered two robots the team confirmed that the second was their practice robot which they brought as a backup. Their intention as was explained was to swap their modular control system if they were to experience a mechanical breakdown and then continue competing with the clone. One of my former team mates recalls them boasting about how they could swap the control system in under a minute.

Re: Lost Bag and Tag
 

Rules were much different in 2002 but it was still one robot only.
1.2.2 Basic Gameplay

Each team competes using one team-built robot.

or in 2003 the WildStang rule...
M5 At the time of robot inspection, you must present all mechanisms that you will use on the robot during the entire competition event. It is acceptable, however, for a robot to play matches with a subset of the mechanisms that were present during inspection. Only mechanisms that were present during the inspection may be added,removed or reconfigured between matches. If subsets of mechanisms are changed between matches, the robot must still meet all inspection criteria. Robots must satisfy Rule M6 at all times.

Re: Lost Bag and Tag
 

I think we are on different wavelenths on this one-

They did indeed only have one robot, but they brought an entire robot's worth of replacement parts assembled in one cohesive machine. When the mechanical mechanism on their machine broke, they removed the mechanical mechanism from the robot (which was the portion which excluded the control system) and installed an identical replacement part in the form of the entire mechanical mechanism to their control system. Basically, there was no definition of a replacement part- this could be a single piece, or an entire mechanism- in their case, they called the entire mechanical system a mechanism and brought an identical replacement part.

Re: Lost Bag and Tag
 

If their second robot weighed 30 lbs or less, they could do that this year too. Highly unlikely, but that was then and this is now.

Did timwinget ever contact FIRST or find a bag? I wonder.

Me, I'd have run off to Home Depot or Lowe's and got me a roll of clear polyethylene sheeting, wrapped the robot like a candy apple and tagged it shut at the top. Better than nothing.

Re: Lost Bag and Tag
 

Here is the final verdict.

I contacted FIRST and they got back to me saying that any bag, FIRST or non FIRST works perfectly fine and wouldn't have made a difference as long as FIRST is contacted.
Secondly, we are still in the competition as long as we fill out the lock-up form and bring in the email giving us the permission to use a different bag.

Thanks for all the suggestions which ultimately led to us working our way out of the mess and especially to Mountain View High School Robotics (Spartan Robotics 971) who gave us one of their extra bags.

Re: Lost Bag and Tag
 

Thanks for the follow up.
I'm sure some other team in similar straits will benefit from knowing how you handled this kind of situation.

Re: Lost Bag and Tag
 

Glad you got your issue resolved. Good luck competing!