Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

I just found out that our team's bumpers, which are already bagged and tagged, are illegal as per rule <R35>.

A cursory trawl through the Robot Showcase subforum allowed me to find pictures and video of more than a half-dozen teams with illegal bumpers on the first page alone.

<R35>: Teams shall display their team number on the Bumpers in four locations at approximately 90° intervals around the perimeter of the Robot. The numerals must be at least 4 in. high, at least ¾ in. in stroke width, and be either white in color or outlined in white. Team numbers must be clearly visible from a distance of not less than 100 ft, so that judges, referees, and announcers can easily identify competing Robots.

Question on 2/8/12 by Team 1619:
Teams, check your bumpers now to make sure that they aren't illegal! If you know of any teams with illegal bumpers, please remind them of this rule. We don't want anyone to end up in a position where they find out at inspection that they need to rework their bumpers!

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

It's sad that the bumper rules are far more arbitrary and restrictive than many other sections of the rules.

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

Thursday of everyone's first competition is going to be a lot of fun, <sarcasm> sewing and painting is what I want to be doing during that time </sarcasm>

We will be fixing bumpers as well, but we shouldn't have to do too much.

I am inspecting at two events and I don't want to be the one to stop people from passing because of bumpers but I feel like that is going to happen a lot.

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

This. I'm glad we have a 1 in our number, otherwise we'd probably have to increase our bumper length on one side of our intake strictly to fit the number. I'm tolerant of only showing the numbers, but letting the four-digit teams break them up (I think most of the sub-1000s could fit their number in eight inches comfortably) would've been helpful.

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

It amazes me how much misunderstanding there is regarding fitting the team number on the bumper. It's easy to fit your number, even if you have a 4-digit number with no 1's, without compromising your design.

The minimum size of a bumper, as measured at the surface where the team number goes, is 11.25". It's not 8", as many people post. You have 8" of frame per [R27], plus 3/4 inches for the overlapped plywood (see figure 4-4 under [R28]), plus 2.5" for the noodle in the corner space per [R31]. Even if you use the vertical noodle as shown in the lower left of figure 4-6 and you don't want your team number to go into the rounded corner, you have 10.5 inches you can realistically work with.

There have been several posts (like this one and another) that offer fonts that make it easy to fit your team number within 10.5-11 inches. If you need to work on your bumpers at competition to pass inspection (my team has done that, but I hope not this year), then I hope this advice helps you get to a direct and fairly easy solution. Good luck!

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

You are assuming that people are overlapping with the shorter bumper. If the connection/overlap is coming from the adjacent bumper, then you only have 8 inches.

I agree with Adam about the bumpers.

Furthermore, the whole "at the ends" in R33 is going to be a bigger problem for teams than R35. We modified our bumpers to meet this "at the end" section in R33 following Saturday's pre-ship event and it resulted in more weakly mounted bumpers than what we had before we met the R33 compliance. This problem is especially acute for teams using the KOP chassis since there are so many bolts already in the corners of the chassis. Our nice pinning solution doesn't work at the ends.

An inordinate amount of time and money is spent on bumpers, when the focus should be on the main robot.

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

I won't complain too much because we are a 3 digit team with a 1 in our number, but even that was a pain. We have a specific "font" we use for all our number/lettering. It's become part of our image so we like to stick with it. Our font will not satisfy the stroke width requirements while staying inside 8" length. We had to go back and "squish" our numbers for the front and back to make them fit, which makes them look silly to me.

I cannot imagine what it is like for 4 digit teams.

-Brando

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

Amen to that. We might have to cover up one of ours cause there is an open space on the front and we painted both. Cover it up and we should be ok.

We did the usual extruded aluminum frame with the sliders mounted on the middle and ends of the bumpers. Doing a Nascar style pit stop, we can change them in about a minute with three people, satisfying that 10 minutes or less rule.

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

For those of us who have already made the numbers on each bumper - five total - Would it be permissible to cover over the numbers with red/blue gaffers tape to be compliant with the 4 and only 4 ruling?

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

No, I made no such assumption. It doesn't matter which direction the plywood overlaps, there is still another 3/4 inch added to the first 8 inches (see figure 4-6 under [R31]. Then add the noodle filling the corner area (same figure); that adds another 2.5". This adds up to 11.25" for the team number.

If you have a bumper with only 8" of fabric where the team number goes, I think it's illegal. It either doesn't cover the 8" of frame from the vertex per [R27], or it doesn't have the corner filled per [R31].

If you disagree, please give us a picture or drawing of a shorter bumper that is legal.

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

I'm agreeing with Cal on this one. Bumpers need to be 3.25'' thick. If you have a 8 inch bumper that lines up with the exact corner of your frame perimeter, you still need the additional 3.25" on the corner of your robot. Making it 11.25" for your team number.

Being a 2-digit team, we don't have to worry about fitting our number in.

Thanks for the heads-up ThirteenofTwo, going to check if we violated R35 after school today.

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

If you put the corner noodle on the side bumper instead of the short front bumper, then you could make the front bumper only about 8" wide. But why would you do that, if you need to make the number fit the short front bumper?

We used longer noodles on our short front bumpers, so they would be the thing that filled in the corner. No problem fitting our 4 digit number on there. But we didn't get the stroke width right....it's almost 3/4". I think they'll pass?

The rules are kind of complex, and they do kind of dictate how you can design parts of the robot. Of course it turns out that if we'd have played with the balls more at the beginning of build season and discovered how they behave, we probably would not have split the front bumper, we would have just made our intake under the bumper, as wide as possible....since it's so easy to drive over the balls.

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

I imagine that would be fine. You could also get some additional fabric to wrap around that specific bumper, and staple it in.

i think he was implying that the pool noodle in the corner would be attached to the side bumper, not the front bumper. In that case, I've seen teams put a single digit on the end of the side bumper such that it lines up with the other numbers on the front bumper, and it's worked that way for them.

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

IMO, your numbers are very readable from a distance, and the stroke width isn't so much smaller that it's noticeable. have a plan if you need to, but i'm going to guess no one will notice, unless the inspector actually measures the numbers!

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

This. I asked the GDC two pretty specific questions on this. The answers were less than helpful.I especially like how the second one completely fails to answer the question. But I'll whip it out when if inspector points out that we're not attaching our L bumpers in the corner. Then at least attempt to argue that the ends of the L actually are the ends of the bumpers.

I'm thinking about asking if they want to comment on what "attached" means. Specifically if they're going judge by whether the bumper is stiffly and securely held against the frame perimeter, or whether they want to see a physical fastener "at the end" of the bumper. I think the former option makes a lot more sense than the latter.

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

Good thing we will be able to fix a non-issue on a bumper on Thursday morning. I wouldn't want to help make sure every other robot at the event can be inspection-ready as fast as possible. I guess people would be confused and assume our number was 422422 if we had our number on both sides, so this rule makes complete sense.

I honestly don't understand why I can't have the numbers on both sides of the front. That isn't going to confuse people any more than splitting the numbers. If bumpers are here to stay, I wish the rules on how they look wouldn't be so ridiculous.

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

I find the worst part of this years rules besides being vague is no more or less than four locations for your numbers. By placing your numbers on both sides of the gap you just double the ease to see your team number. I understand the no less than 4 places but more than 4 doesn't make sense.

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

It's really unfortunate because our team busts their butts to build and put together high-quality competition bumpers that ideally satisfy all rules. We think that going above and beyond on a forgotten robot component is indicative of the effort we put into every aspect of the season. Now we're being told we can't have any more than 4 number placements (1 on each side), when this wasn't a problem in 2009.

Who is hurt by having the number duplicated? How hard would it have been to include the phrase "no fewer, no more" in the rulebook?

I imagine that last sentence can be repeated for a lot of vague rules in and outside of bumper requirements. We get a rulebook in 2011 that's thicker than an AP Physics textbook:too wordy and complex. This year we get a rulebook that is thin enough to be interpreted any which way a team could desire, although we can't read the minds up in Manchester as to the full extent of the rule.

I guess I should have Q&A'd this earlier, but this seems like such a non-issue to me.

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

PayneTrain and BrendanB -

The ruling behind the exactly 4 locations AND not splitting the number makes sense when you think about practical applications at a regional. Lets say teams 20 and 2020 are both at the same regional. If numbers could be split, 2020 splitting their numbers on both sides of a gap might look like team 20 at a glance. Likewise, if numbers could appear multiple times on the same side, 20 might look like team 2020 if they had their number on both sides of the gap.

Now, some people will argue that the full number is on the side of the robot... well, this year that doesn't have to be the case - you could have gaps on all 4 sides of the robot, and duplicate this issue on all 8 bumper segments.

The GDC is trying to go with the easiest solution to making the team numbers visible, readable, and understandable to everyone in the stadium. that includes ref's and scouters, as well as those not as familiar with FIRST, like friends, family, sponsors, or other visiting organizations (we've seen girl scout troops check it out more than a few times).

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

I'd be leery of gaffer's tape, unless it has a true "fabric" surface. The rules state "fabric" and I'd expect that to be enforced.

Can you paint over the errant digits? Matching the color would easy enough - go to any paint store, they have these nifty color matching machines. A quart of acrylic latex paint would go far.

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

It didn't hurt our team any (because we didn't put the numbers on our bumper covers until the Q&A was answered), but I was surprised that the answer was "no fewer, no more". Having already declared that splitting the number was illegal (good call, IMO), there would be no confusion caused by putting the full team number on both sides of a gap; if anything, that would make it even easier for everyone to read.

But, it's done, and we all deal with it. Rather like the customer who says, "that spec isn't what I meant; I want it this way." Real world!

Good luck, everyone.

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

Someone else should ask via Q&A what the legal ways to cover up extra numbers might be. (I don't have access).

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

Personally, I have to say that getting 4 numbers (that arn't 1's) is very hard. I honestly had to make the numbers cut into each other in order to make the font fit nicely.

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

I would also like to warn teams that you must place the number at 90 degree intervals. In my eyes, this means that if you have a hole for intake, you must offset the number to one side on your other 3 bumper sides.

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

Not the case.

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

I think that rule is for any team inexplicably attempting a holonomic system this year.

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

I don't see in the rule were you have to have all for numbers on one of the 8" bumpers. The question was about having two team numbers on the front (which is illegal).

If I put 15 on the right front bumper and 28 on the left front bumper, then on have created 1528 (our team number) on the front location of our robot. I do not see anywhere in the rules that say's this is a violation. Just to make sure, I posted this on the Q&A and should have an answer soon.

Teams that are thinking that they have to redo their bumpers because of this scenerio, please wait for the GDC to answer my question.

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

This has already been answered:

Anything but a "there are no rules prohibiting this" is a no from the GDC.

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

Bolding Mine. You can't split your numbers.

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

I guess this means any team that has an object that at anytime blocks or covers their team number is also in violation. (It is not "clearly visable") (I know this is another question waiting for a reply)

Man I would hate to have an object that covers up my entire side of the robot. Sounds like a lot of teams are also going to be redoing their robots.

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

As I read this thread, I began chuckling to myself because stepping back and thinking about what we are discussing, it seems insane to me. There are so many rules that govern bumpers, yet questions still remain.

Here's one thought I had regarding bumpers:
There is a requirement for bumpers to be visible on all 4 sides of a teams robot. This seems like a pretty decent requirement when you consider what it would be primarily used for, identify teams. Identifying teams from the stands, while important, tends to take a backseat to identifying teams on the field for referee/FTA purposes. However, it is my understanding that penalties will not be tracked this year on a robot to robot basis. Technical fouls/yellow/red cards will be assigned to teams but general penalties occurring on the field will not be tracked at all. The penalty will simply be flagged at the time it occurs and the penalty assessed to the offending alliance.

I guess my grief comes into play identifying a robot on the field. Do all 4 sides need to be 100% absolutely crystal clear for the refs to do their job and for teams to identify other teams from the stands? It seems many teams have had issues squishing the numbers onto the front/back of their long configuration robots. Would it be an absolute travesty if the numbers in those situations were a bit smaller, or a little less clear? There would presumably be at least 2 other sides with very clear numbering. Of course all of this assumes you have direct line of sight to the numbered bumper, which may not be true if the robots behind a bridge/fender/teammate/opponent.

I guess I just find the rules a little excessive with regards to numbering, especially when considering these numbers will not be used for on the fly penalty tracking.

A fair alternative:
In a case where a team cannot fit a number on the bumper easily, allow teams to place the team number on the robot itself somewhere above where the number on the bumper would be expected. I would think many teams could make this happen with relative ease.

\end venting session

-Brando

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

JYH, I can't tell the scale in your picture, but I must say that I'm concerned your frame and bumper might not be legal. How long is the frame on each side of the opening, and how wide is the opening itself? It looks to me like your bumper is 8" long measured on the outside, and only about 6" long on the frame. You must have 8" of frame from each corner, and 8" of bumper covering it, per [R27] and [R33]. The bumper in the corner region doesn't count toward the 8".

I hope I'm just misjudging the scale in your picture, and your robot is perfectly legal. But since it doesn't look that way to me, it would be unkind of me to not say anything. What I can see of your robot looks sharp, and I wish you the best of luck!

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

This has also been addressed.

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

I had the same concern about a neighboring team's robot when I saw it, and I had to actually measure the bumper to convince myself it was legal. Eight inches of bumper is surprisingly short.

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

I know I measured our own bumpers before we bagged them to make sure... as the mentor who helped build them put it, they are "barely long enough". I rephrased that for him - they were produced exactly to spec!

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

The frame perimeter was extended by one inch, from 6.25 inches, to satisfy the rules.

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

I think I giant number running u the chute of an intake system can be just as obvious as bumpers, but it is what it is.

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

Q. Can the bumpers be covered at any point by a dynamic appendage on the robot?

A. There are no rules prohibiting this.

This makes absolutely no sense to me. If you can not have fragmented or obsured numbers because you want judges/refs to be able to see your number at all times/angles, then how can you allow a robot to block the numbers and the refs/judges can't see anything. With some of these dynamic appendages that teams have a fragmented number makes it much easier to read than a squished number. What is the point of saying the numbers must be clearly seen from 100 ft away if you allow it to be covered up and hard to see from 15ft away?

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

Maybe someone should make a robot that purposely follows the bumper rules exactly, yet all 4 sides get completely obscured and no one can ever see the numbers.

I'm kidding, of course.

But seriously, why does FIRST need to this? It is so superfluous!

Tangent question (and this is just a thought, my team did not do this): Would one be allowed to securely/rigidly mount a piece of polycarbonate, or some mounted "plate" to the bumper, that actually extended past the 8 inches of bumper into the "U" area such that i could much more easily write out a number?

Just my thoughts, complaints, jokes, concerns, or something......
-Duke

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

Wouldn't this defeat the purpose of having a 'U' shaped opening, That would effectively make it an 'O' again.

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

some of the bumper rules are so meaningless but what can we do other then just follow them.

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

Make sure you never drive up against the fender, or put your bumper under the bridge, or drive anywhere near another robot.

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

I don't want to offend or call anyone out, but 340 and 341 have appendages that will likely cover up the ENTIRE front bumper almost the ENTIRE match if they choose to do so.

I need to stop visiting this thread; bumper rules bum me out.

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

I'mma let you finish, but 3167 had one of the best bumpers of all time!


Seriously though, 341's appendage is dynamic and can retract quite quickly from what I've seen in videos. I highly doubt they would fail inspection because of the possibility their bumpers might be covered by their appendage, when there are so many other ways the for the bumpers to be covered, as Joe Ross pointed out.

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

This is exactly my point. Why should a fragmented bumper really matter? When competing, it is almost impossible to see a team number from every point of the field at all times. So I think the GDC really is taking a simple bumper rule and blowing it out of reality. Their reasoning doesn't fit the rule.

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

If this means you now have 7.25" of frame, measured from the corner to the inside opening, then I'm afraid it's still not legal. You must have 8" of frame on each side of the vertex (the outside corner of the frame) per [R27]. I presume you have 3/4" of plywood extending past the corner, to overlap with the other bumper, but that doesn't count toward the 8".

I would spend the time between now and your first competition cutting two pieces of 8" channel, and making new front bumpers, so your team can do a quick replacement on practice/inspection day.

Best of luck to you.

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

I'm sorry if this has already been said. I skimmed through and didn't see it.

Is there a definitive rule that requires all numbers to be on one side of the short bumpers and not split? We already made our red pair and would like to know if we need to redo the fabric before we make our blue pair. We'll need to make new stencils as the ones we have won't fit on the small bumper.

-Anna

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

A lot of teams are taking the safe route and moving all to one side of a split bumper but some are going ahead with split numbers because the ruling is kinda vague on that point. But I believe the ones that did do the split numbers have also made some that are all on one side just in case they are wrong.

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

Perhas it is to prepare our students for the eventuality of a customer demanding something in the product that is completely superfluous and ridiculously unnecessary. Does that ever happen in real life?

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

Unfortunately, Cal is correct. You need 8" of frame (not plywood, which is considered part of the bumper). Spend the time befre your regional making 8 inch front frames. Sorry and good luck!

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

See this post
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...6&postcount=29

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

The Q&A response is clear and unmistakeable:

[Numbers] may not be inverted, obscured, fragmented, upside down, etc.

Split numbers fall under the "fragmented" category.

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

There are multiple Q&A Answers that say you cannot Fragment your numbers
is just one of them.

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

Maybe FIRST made these bumper rules so IRI would have something to blow off come July.

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

Q&A has answered the question about blocking your team numbers. It's ok too. Now all teams go build that cow catcher.

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

I'm sorry, but FIRST has really missed the mark when it comes to bumpers. What real difference does it make if a team displays their number more than 4 times? I know FIRST is supposed to get kids interested in STEM, but emulating the pointless bureaucracy and red tape that actually exists in the real world is not the way to do it.

end rant.

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

I think it's good that FIRST is letting our students get a taste of the real world....you gotta have a lot of fortitude to make it in STEM, after all

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

No, the polycarbonate that was hanging off the end would be flexible, but i suppose that would only retain its "U" functionality if the robot had a ball manipulator outside of the frame of the robot. I was more just wondering the legality of doing so.

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

I already know we're gonna have to redo ours on one ...

Unless they come out and amend some of those rules for the numbering. At this point, I can see an update post First week regional, if not by this Friday Lunch time.

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

Let's pretend we're team number 16. Under the current bumper rules you may only have 1 number per side.

--------16---------

Lets say the rules were changed to allow more then 4 numbers, and we decide to put our number twice on each side.

-----16---16----

Which team are we, 16 or 1616?

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

Well, the solution to that one is to allow only more than 4 times, but still disallow fragmentation.

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

Are all the common spectators and scouters going to know FIRST's bumper rules in full detail?

Re: Teams: Check Your Bumpers
 

I would look to see what teams are in the match. The team would be obvious. Don't make it harder than it needs to be.