Re: Alamo 2012
 

Do I think 148's drivetrain partially caused the tip, yes. Do I think 457 intentionally tipped 148 after 148 landed on top of them, yes. If 457 wasnt intentionall trying to tip 148 over they would have driven backwards after being landed on by another robot. To me, that shows reckless care of one's robot to the point of intention.I'd say this event was a 90/10 share of tipping.(90% = 457 and 10% = 148)

Re: Alamo 2012
 

I accept your opinion Paul and defer to your immensely greater amount of FRC experience. Its one of those questions that is only answered in the mind of the student driver. Did he see what was happening quickly enough too know for sure what was going to happen if he kept going? Was he an experienced veteran or a new driver full of adrenaline in his first FRC final? I'm not sure in the excitement of the moment I could have backed off of the push soon enough with my old man's reflexes, but maybe a student driver should have. Anyway, the tip was surely a combination of some very unfortunate rocking/timing for 148, and some aggressive driving from the defender. It wouldn't have happened without both. I'm not experienced enough to know what the right call was.

Re: Alamo 2012
 

I should hope not.

At worst, this should have been a technical foul + yellow card, per [G26]. [T17] permits the Head Ref to give Red Cards for "particularly egregious" behavior, but this is a tricky call that we can all agree was not premeditated by more than a couple seconds.

Re: Alamo 2012
 

Coincidentally, a tech foul + yellow would have still resulted in a red win and 148 taking the regional championship in this particular case. But yes, [G26] lists a very specific penalty for this, and that penalty isn't an instant red card and DQ.

Re: Alamo 2012
 

While I think the conversation regarding 148's tip has been civil and generally productive, I rarely have good feelings when a call or non-call is the main topic of conversation after an event. Coming from a team that has benifited from some questionable calls in the past, it was disheartening to read all the discussions after the event revolving around the the non-call or decision by the head ref. Instead of celebrating my team's accomplishment, myself and my team had to listen to discussions questioning if we should have won or not. From what I've seen and heard, Alamo was a fantastic event. I just hope the win by 231-1477-457 and all the amazing things that occured during the event don't get overshadowed by one 2 second play.

Re: Alamo 2012
 

This is correct, it should have been a yellowcard. HOWEVER, there also should have been a redcard dolled out with the balancing interference in match 1, resulting in a yellowcard being carried into match #2, and the [G26] resulting in a double yellowcard->redcard.

This is a really crappy way to end a regional, but if all rules are being followed, this is what should have happened. I'm with Paul on this one that it falls under the jurisdiction of [G26], and I felt that way when I saw it live. Whether or not it was in the mind of the driver to try to tip them, whether it happened too fast, or was just an adrenaline-fueled reaction is irrelevant here: when you drive 4 feet with a team's chassis partially on top of you, and then back up and they fall, that has to be called as intentional by the refs because the ONLY thing they have to go off of is what they see.

It has nothing to do with the reactions of the driveteam afterwards. Regardless of if it was intentional or not, that's the natural reaction to a situation unfold that likely means you're going to a 3rd match. What it has to do with is the actions of 457 directly resulting in 148 tipping over. Watching the video it is clear to me that

1) 148 was rocking back at the time of contact, but not very far. They would not have tipped over had 457 not contacted them.

2) 457 continued to push forward towards 148 after they were clearly underneath them, an action which resulted in 148 tipping over.

I want to stress that I do not think 457 had any malicious intent to tip over 148. I am simply commenting on the fact that in situations such as this, it is impossible for the refs to read minds, and they MUST rule based on what they see. This has to be called as [G26], as similar actions have (or should have) in previous years.

Re: Alamo 2012
 

John, you are wise.

Perhaps the celebratory and happy posts could be made in an Alamo Congratulatory/Thank You thread created in this forum.

It's not unusual for teams from an event that has transpired to start a Thank You thread and it is an appropriate response after a weekend of competition.

Jane

Re: Alamo 2012
 

Yes, I am defending my team -- but there have been several assumptions made by folks commenting on this thread.

When you see that team celebrating when 148 tipped over in round 2 of the finals, that was NOT my team! Team 457 was at the other side of the court. The celebrating team were our allies. Our driver could not see the predicament that the 148 robot was in as clearly as you see it in the video because his view was obscured by the baskets and backboards, not to mention our robot itself, which was between 148 and our driver. I can tell you first-hand that it was not our strategy to tip another robot. Teams 231 and 1477 selected us to join them because they wanted us to play defense, and to try to prevent 148 from scoring baskets, and we are very glad they did! Our team was just trying to keep 148 away from the baskets.

You should also take note of the fact that 148 tipped over in all three games of the finals, and that our robot was nowhere near them when those other accidents took place. 148 was, unfortunately, a bit top-heavy.

Some folks think we should have been penalized for 148's fall, but there is no rule that says that our robot has to run away when another robot becomes unstable -- otherwise the winning strategy would be to just design an unstable robot.

I will also point out that our team didn't make a peep when we were hit with a 49-point penalty for incidental contact with 148 or the bridge just before they lined up for a three-way robot balance attempt in the game before, although I can tell you I thought the penalty was outrageous. Unfortunately, my view of the contact was blocked by the head of somebody in front of me during the competition -- so I couldn't even tell whether it was with the bridge or with the robot, I could only see the parts of the robots above the bumpers. If you are able to see the first game of the finals on video, you will see that we backed away from the bridge and let the opposing team attempt the balance -- but there was some incidental contact just before that which is not in the video.

Celebrate that 148 was the first to demonstrate the triple balance in competition. As the defending Alamo champions, they were worthy opponents and crowd favorites.

I am a rookie mentor, but from day one I heard from my team what a great robot 148 had last year -- and how lucky we would be if we were chosen to be teamed up with them this year for the finals.

Re: Alamo 2012
 

Does anyone have video of the triple balance? I might be able to post what I have tomorrow but if anyone else had footage that'd be great.

Re: Alamo 2012
 

DJ, as lead mentor of 2789, I know where you're coming from. My team prides itself on two things: 1) designing & building robots that have a low center of gravity, and 2) playing hard-nosed defense within the rules. Our approach to competing in FRC games has resulted in other teams being neither gracious nor professional towards us, however, in the spirit of FIRST, I do what I can to show my team how to be gracious and professional when dealing with situations like these. I think your response above was thoughtful, and I like how your post both explains your team's approach and is respectful of your competitor.

I am a passionate person, and I know that the FIRST community is full of passionate people. There have been a great deal of posts on here that show that passion. I, of course, have my opinions on these matters, but I would rather show my passion for FIRST in a different way. I'm going to follow Jane's link posted above, and I'm going to write a much longer post about the importance of making human connections and building bridges based on an important lesson my team learned at Alamo this year. I would like to invite everyone else on this thread to follow that link as well, so that we can channel the passion we have for this sport into a much more productive, gracious, and professional manner. Honestly, the arguments could go on forever on this thread, and while several people on all sides have made valid and thoughtful points, I feel like the culture of our regional and the FIRST community would benefit more by focusing on the hard work everyone put into this event and the positive and lasting impact this event will leave on our teams and on our kids.

Re: Alamo 2012
 

Courtesy of the Robowranglers FB page: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=509eQ...ature=youtu.be

As to those asking for match videos, no guarantees, but if the scouters saved all the matches, I will try to have them posted to our YouTube channel by Friday. I doubt we'll have the finals, but we should have all the seeding matches.

Re: Alamo 2012
 

I've created a new thread in Thanks & Congrats for Alamo, here's the link: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=104319

Re: Alamo 2012
 

2012 Alamo Videos
UStream has a recording of the entire webcast in 8 multi-hour chunks. Also, 148 linking to my youtube video of the triple balance probably explains the thousand or so hits shortly after it was posted that got it on the trending list. And several thousand MORE hits.

Re: Alamo 2012
 

There are videos of all three Alamo Regional final games on FRC1477 Youtube channel. Unlike the ustream video, the video from 1477 shows the events in round 1 that led up to our 49-point penalty. I've watched it over and over, trying to figure out what I should tell my team not to have done -- but I'm afraid I can't spot the infraction. I just see our robot contact the bar in the center of the court, in between the red alliance bridge and the coopertition bridge after 148 fell off the bridge for the first time. I don't see any attempt to interfere with the balance. The only words I'll be passing along to my team are "great job"!

Again I would like to thank teams 231 and 1477 for picking us for their alliance, and I would like to thank our opponents 148, 922 and 2936 for giving us the most exciting and challenging match we could hope for!

Re: Alamo 2012
 

LauraHood's video of Finals 1 It occurs at exactly 1:58 in this video. Or at exactly 2:29 in the FRC1477 video. 457 runs forward and hits the bridge. I suspect it was an honest mistake, and your driver forgot which way forward was, but I was watching from the blue driver's station side of the field and you pretty clearly bumped the bridge, even if it likely had zero effect on the balancing going on at the time.