Can we use a gopro helmet camera?
 

Hi, I had a few questions about if we can mount and use a go pro camera during the competition.
-Does the fact it has its own internal battery pack cause a problem with the rules?
-Can we start it recording when we turn on the robot? (Will will auto record when you turn on the camera.)

It will be totally separated electronically. It is simply for recording the game.
There are a few videos of people using them last year.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKQ6vksrLDU

Thanks!

Re: Can we use a gopro helmet camera?
 

First off i would read through the rules one more time because I dont know. But I think aslon it is on the robot during inpection then I whink you will be ok.

Re: Can we use a gopro helmet camera?
 

The use of a camera with a separate powersupply from the main robot is leagal as long as it does not transmit or recieve data during a match.

Re: Can we use a gopro helmet camera?
 

Ours will be donning 2 GoPros all season.

-Brando

Re: Can we use a gopro helmet camera?
 

The YouTube video you linked to is the MSC competition, where every robot in the Semi-Finals and Finals had to have a camera mounted on the robot because a television channel (I can't remember which one) was making a documentary about MSC.

Re: Can we use a gopro helmet camera?
 

Ditto here Brandon. One HD Hero 2 and a standard Hero. The fun part is trying to figure out which to put where.

Re: Can we use a gopro helmet camera?
 

One on the rotating turret, (the HD one) and another facing forwards?

Re: Can we use a gopro helmet camera?
 

Can a camera (video or otherwise) be considered a COTS computing device?

Re: Can we use a gopro helmet camera?
 

That's a good question(off to read manual...). The cool thing with the camera is that unless you modify it, it's concidered a cots item and won't add to your 30lbs.

Re: Can we use a gopro helmet camera?
 

Yes, but it's not exempt from weight or cost restrictions.

My dad had a goPro attached at various points during our test run. Witness the results: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=276200042453874

Re: Can we use a gopro helmet camera?
 

Thanks for you help! It appears that the camera should not cause any problems then and it does not cost over $400 so cost should not be an issue. I plan on using it during the competition.

Sorry I'm on my iPhone, but we asked this exact question to the Q&A and found based off this that we cannot mount then because our robot costs too much.

Re: Can we use a gopro helmet camera?
 

Its separate power supply would disqualify it per R36, regardless of cost or weight, unless it is classified as a COTS computing device (arguable).

Re: Can we use a gopro helmet camera?
 

Have any people done it before? If so, then it seems like it would be allowed. Also, what is a cots computing device?

Re: Can we use a gopro helmet camera?
 

A COTS computing device would be something like a laptop or PDA mounted on the robot. COTS (Commercial Off-The-Shelf) means that it is not modified from its original state (apart from software). The intent of R36 is to prevent non-approved power sources from being used, while permitting the use of portable computing devices that operate on their own battery. An example use might be to perform advanced image processing without slowing the cRIO. However, per R52, the device cannot control the robot in any way besides perhaps relaying information to the cRIO to use for its control decisions.

Sounds like a judges question. Do it. Ask questions later

Re: Can we use a gopro helmet camera?
 

I like your thinking... That does seem like the best option though.

Just make sure when you put them off that it won't take an hour to take off and that it's not crucial to anything. Also I wouldn't point out the Q and A I posted lol. Just do it.

Re: Can we use a gopro helmet camera?
 

What would the judges have to do with it?

Re: Can we use a gopro helmet camera?
 

I guess the GDC answer above says otherwise, but I gathered by some of the rules that a camera not used during the match could be considered a "non-functional decoration" and thus exempt from the cost and transmission rules. Specifically...

I would think a GoPro camera intended for PR only would fall within this rule.

Thus, it is possible to have a "decoration" that broadcasts a signal. And it is allowed to broadcast...
And......exempt from cost rules.

I guess the GDC thinks otherwise, though...

Re: Can we use a gopro helmet camera?
 

For those that don't understand this (rookie teams/students), there are 4 distinct groups of official competition people that will be evaluating either your team or your robot.

Judges: Blue polo shirts; they evaluate your team/robot for awards.
Safety Judges: Green polo shirts; they evaluate both for safety (and the safety awards).

Neither type of judge can make any call regarding legality. If one does, see the nearest inspector to double-check. (If the inspector says you're legal, and the judge still says you're illegal, call the LRI over.)

Refs: Striped shirts; they see whether you are following the rules on the field. This is one of the groups that could possibly determine that a camera is illegal; however, that call would depend on use in the competition and be confirmed by the inspectors. Refs only call game and tournament rules; some of the game and tournament rules involve passing inspection and showing up with a legal robot.

Inspectors: Standard volunteer shirt (other than the LRI's vest) and armed with clipboards. These guys are the ones that make sure your robot is legal to compete. These guys also love to see you early on Thursday morning so they can get you passing inspection faster. They make the call on robot rules.

This particular question is going to be an inspector's call, assuming the GDC doesn't weigh in soon (via Q&A--which hasn't been asked yet). (And then... the inspectors get to help enforce the GDC ruling.) Failure to point them to a ruling, whether in your favor or not, is not going to make the inspectors' job easier, or their ruling necessarily correct.



The biggest question, as pointed out earlier, is whether a camera that is not connected to the robot's power system and does not transmit wirelessly is considered to be a computing device, or a non-functional decoration (NFD), or both. If it's an NFD, cost does not apply ([R13]), but power ([R36]) and weight ([R03]) do, barring exceptions that aren't currently clear, obvious, or otherwise spelled out so a reasonably astute observer can find them. If it's a computing device, cost and weight apply, but power does not. It's an interesting question.

As the rules stand right now, barring a Q&A response or Team Update to the contrary, I would call a camera of this type a NFD, which makes it subject to the power rules, and therefore illegal. However, if it is also considered to be a computing device (by the GDC), then it is an NFD computing device, which can utilize its own power source and still be exempted from cost rules, making it legal.

Note: I am not on the GDC, not familiar with their intent, and not official in any way, shape, or form. Hence my calling this both ways--call it playing GDC advocate and PR advocate at the same time.

If I could use precedent here, I'd say legal due to similar setups--but I could just as easily say that it would have to get power from the robot under a different set of conditions. Again, very interesting and challenging question.

Re: Can we use a gopro helmet camera?
 

These responses bother me. The GDC has made a ruling (albiet only towards the cost accounting).

While I agree that you should do it. I would also point it out directly to the inspector and give him a copy of the GDC ruling as well as a cost accounting of the device on the BoM.

We're here to show Gracious Professionalism. As a professional I would not try and knowingly 'hide' something that may not fit the specs (FIRST rules) I have been given.

JM(NS)HO.

P.S. I love this idea and may try it get it through inspection (pointed out as above) at GSR.

Re: Can we use a gopro helmet camera?
 

Everyone,
Cameras used to record Point of View (POV) seem to fit best under non-functional decorations except for the those that have an integral battery. An inspector will evaluate the camera at every event under the safety guidelines and all other robot rules. There are a few guidelines we use when checking all cameras at all events prior to authorizing their use.
1. If the camera derives power from the robot battery, all electrical rules must be followed. (wire gauge, breakers, insulation, etc.)
2. If the camera contains a battery, and it is of a type that could cause fire or chemical spills if damaged during a match, it must be sufficiently protected.
3. The camera, it's battery and lens must be mounted securely to the robot frame in such a way that it will not become detached and/or pose a hazard to participants. Wire ties do not constitute a secure attachment.
4. The robot must be weighed and sized with the camera and accessories in place.
5. The camera will be required to go through inspection at each event in which the robot is entered and the camera is used.
6. It is understood that such a camera is merely to record POV video and will not be used for any reason other than entertainment purposes.
7. In all cases, if the camera is capable of transmitting wirelessly, even if not enabled, you need to show proof that it was pre-approved by FIRST Engineering. See R67, and it will need to be checked for interference at each event.
Be sure to check the entire manual for any rule that may apply in addition to the robot rules.
To answer another question, a camera will not be considered a computing device regardless of the type of media used to record video and/or audio. Those with integral batteries will inspected on a case by case basis at every event.

Re: Can we use a gopro helmet camera?
 

Ok, a few details about the go pro camera:
-It costs about $200
-It is not capable of transmitting wirelessly unless you buy a separate accessory that is not available yet.
-It does have a internal lithium ion battery.
-The battery and camera are protected with a heavy duty case. (Made to be a rugged helmet camera.) The only way the battery or camera could cause damage was if this was in a robot wars competition and it got cut in half.
-It will be attached securely.

Cost and weight wise it should not affect our team.

Re: Can we use a gopro helmet camera?
 

That is yet to be determined. Your definition of not causing or receiving damage is bound to be different than an inspector. We are looking for things based on our experience and collectively we have seen an things that would curl your hair.

Re: Can we use a gopro helmet camera?
 

... Of that I have no doubt.

People, remember that the inspectors are trying to get your robot onto the field ... safely.

Argue your positions quietly and calmly. If you still disagree ask for the LRI. Be prepared to modify your robot should the LRI disagree with you.

This is supposed to be a fun, inspirational and enjoyable event.

Re: Can we use a gopro helmet camera?
 

And if he does disagree: go behind his back and lawyer up for later.

Re: Can we use a gopro helmet camera?
 

NO. You do not do this.

If you don't like an inspector's decision, call the LRI over. If you don't like the LRI's decision, then you just have to deal with it. The only way to change it is to convince either the LRI or the FTA to call HQ. And you're only going to be able to do that if you can raise reasonable doubt in either of their minds.

If you take an illegal robot onto the field, the refs can call you for it; it's worth a red card.

Re: Can we use a gopro helmet camera?
 

I didn't know the rules were legally binding. :confused: :D

Re: Can we use a gopro helmet camera?
 

If the inspectors dont agree, them I will explain my point, if they still dont, then I will take it off. This isnt that big of a deal. I agree that "This is supposed to be a fun, inspirational and enjoyable event." I dont want to make a big deal out of a little camera that is not crucial.

Re: Can we use a gopro helmet camera?
 

Go pro cameras are getting really popular... I expect that more people will want to do this next year. They should defiantly mention it in the rule book.

Re: Can we use a gopro helmet camera?
 

...quickly reviews the external pneumatics pump rules....
:p

Re: Can we use a gopro helmet camera?
 

... so if we time the pneumatic venting just so, and have it pass an uncooled Victor...

Re: Can we use a gopro helmet camera?
 

We used it and the inspectors did not have a problem. I also saw at least 10 other teams using them. :-)

Re: Can we use a gopro helmet camera?
 

Bryson,
Your inspector did not have a problem with the method in which you mounted your camera and the way it was used. That is not a blanket statement that every cameras will automatically pass inspection.

Re: Can we use a gopro helmet camera?
 

Here are some POV movies I put together from the HD Hero 2 on out robot during build, calibration and at the Sacramento Regional.

Build and calibration, Practice day, and a compilation from all three days at Sacramento.

Re: Can we use a gopro helmet camera?
 

Hey Al,

What a great ad for GoPro cameras! ( this is a satirical opinion)

First judges that know
say you are ready to go
cause of the way you used GoPro.

Thanks now I am grabbin one for my kayak.

heh.::safety::

Re: Can we use a gopro helmet camera?
 

We had two GoPro cameras on our robot at Lake Superior, and our robot was inspected by "Big" Al, the head robot inspector for all of FIRST.

I think he was unaware of the Q&A cited earlier, because he said the camera need not be included in the BOM (we had done so). He also said it was not a COTS computing device. He classified it as a 'decoration' It does need to be included in weight, and it does need to be inspected for safety purposes and any other applicable rules.

Re: Can we use a gopro helmet camera?
 

I saw several used this past weekend. None on any robots that I reviewed, so I didn't have to make any decisions.

I'm familiar with the GoPro cameras, having lusted after one for use in my cycling hobby. I haven't broken down and bought one yet, but for use in the application on the robot, I don't think you could ask for better. There are several other, similar, helmet-cam setups that would be equally at home on a bot, so this isn't an endorsement of a particular brand.

Pluses are they are nearly indestructable (made for sports use) self-contained power, small, light, and getting pretty cheap. So they are coming close to meeting all concerns about use on the robot. The GoPro mounting hardware is also good. No worry about wire-tieing it on when you have a choice of several types of brackets.

I think in the future, these might be more specifically addressed in the rules. The benefits of making POV video during matches can only help promote FIRST and the excitement of the competitions. Teams can use the video in creative ways to promote their team and FIRST as well as to diagnose the robot and strategy.

As long as they remain self-contained and the team has the room in their weight and cost budgets, it seems like they are enhancing the competition more than doing any harm.

Re: Can we use a gopro helmet camera?
 

There is an additional bonus that we had not anticipated. While watching the video's after the matches, you can see exactly what the system was doing, sometimes the drive team didn't even realize they were doing it. Also, sometimes the audio reveals a problem you might not have noticed until a hard failure took place.

As examples: We noticed the co-pilot was cycling the shooter wheel when there was no need, he also had the ball collector running when there were no balls anywhere near. These two behaviors have an impact on driving by draining the battery needlessly.
We also noticed a quick drop out of the shooter wheel drive about 1 second before a shot in Autonomous. It came back up immediately and we made the shot, but without the video, we might not have diagnosed a logic issue in our code.

Re: Can we use a gopro helmet camera?
 

I provided GoPro videos to our local news station and they incorporated them into a story on our team (see the video story on the upper right.)

http://kaaltv.com/article/stories/S2...html?cat=10151

Re: Can we use a gopro helmet camera?
 

I put all of our go pro videos on this you tube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiwI..._rVp4ug/videos
I put them together with the recorded match using sony vegas.