Chief Delphi - cRio-FRC in BOM

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kjohnson

28-02-2012 19:17

Re: cRio-FRC in BOM

I'm not sure why the legality of the cRIO is even being questioned...

Quote:

Originally Posted by R52

Robots must be controlled via one programmable National Instruments cRIO (part # cRIO-FRC or cRIO-FRCII), with image version FRC_2012_v43. Other controllers shall not be used.

As for your budget concerns:

The original 8-slot cRIO-FRC (with modules) was provided in a previous KOP.
The new 4-slot cRIO-FRCII (with modules) was provided in this year's rookie KOP.

Therefore, they count as previous or current KOP items and neither the cRIO nor modules need to be accounted for.

Daniel_LaFleur

28-02-2012 19:30

Re: cRio-FRC in BOM

In order to use an item, it must pass ALL FRC rules. Not just <R52>

Quote:

Originally Posted by nukemknight (Post 1136363)

I'm not sure why the legality of the cRIO is even being questioned...

As for your budget concerns:

The original 8-slot cRIO-FRC (with modules) was provided in a previous KOP.
The new 4-slot cRIO-FRCII (with modules) was provided in this year's rookie KOP.

Therefore, they count as previous or current KOP items and neither the cRIO nor modules need to be accounted for.

Quote:

[R52]
Robots must be controlled via one programmable National Instruments cRIO (part # cRIO-FRC or cRIO-FRCII), with image version FRC_2012_v43. Other controllers shall not be used.

Check. CRio-FRC and -FRCII allowed.

Quote:

[R13]
The total cost of all non-KOP items shall not exceed $3,500.00 USD. All costs are to be determined as explained in Section 4.1.3: Budget Constraints.

The following items are excluded from the total cost calculation:
A. items listed on any KOP Checklist (qty is limited to the total listed in the most recent checklist),
B. items obtained via a Product Donation Voucher included in the KOP,
C. items ever distributed to the team via FIRST Choice,
D. any non-functional decorations,
E. individual fasteners, adhesives, or lubricants that are less than $1.00 each,
F. spare parts, and
G. parts of the Operator Console.

Check. CRio-FRCII allowed at no cost (1 on KoP checklist). CRio-FRC is allowed but at cost because qty on latest KoP is 0.

Quote:

[R14]
No individual item shall have a value that exceeds $400.00. The total cost of Components purchased in bulk may exceed $400.00 USD as long as the cost of an individual Component does not exceed $400.00.

CRio-FRCII -- no issue here (Costing is 0)
CRio-FRC is disallowed due to costing of $535

I agree that it appears to be an oversight ... Again, it'll be an interesting Thursday. :rolleyes:

Nate Laverdure

28-02-2012 19:36

Re: cRio-FRC in BOM

EDIT: disregard my first point... didn't make sense! I stand by my second point, which is that:

I agree with nukem... I'm unable to understand how this is an issue.

EDIT2: I interpret [R13] Exception A to mean: items listed on the most recent revision of any year's KOP Checklist (qty is limited to the total listed)

RufflesRidge

28-02-2012 19:36

Re: cRio-FRC in BOM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur (Post 1136376)

Check. CRio-FRCII allowed at no cost (1 on KoP checklist). CRio-FRC is allowed but at cost because qty on latest KoP is 0.

Here's what I don't get about this interpretation. Why use the word "any" at all if that's what they meant? The way you are interpreting that's not allowing you to exclude the cost of an item that was on "any" KOP checklist it's allowing you to do so for items on the 2012 KOP checklist. If that's what they meant that's what they would have said IMO (considering that's exactly what they did in R20 last year).

Daniel_LaFleur

28-02-2012 19:44

Re: cRio-FRC in BOM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RufflesRidge (Post 1136380)

Their wording does seem to be contradictory. As such, I take it as the most restrictive (IE Qty 0). We only have an 8-slot CRio, so we're in the barrel, so to speak ... Hence, my statement that it's going to be interesting on Thursday.

Nate Laverdure

28-02-2012 19:52

Re: cRio-FRC in BOM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur (Post 1136376)

CRio-FRC is allowed but at cost because qty on latest KoP is 0.

Can you point me toward the KOP Checklist with a listed quantity of "0" for the 8-slot cRIO?

Daniel_LaFleur

28-02-2012 20:04

Re: cRio-FRC in BOM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nate Laverdure (Post 1136391)

Can you point me toward the KOP Checklist with a listed quantity of "0" for the 8-slot cRIO?

Page 19

Quote:

compactRIO
1
Rookie Kit
P/N: cRIO-FRC II
4-slot cRIO with Analog (9201), Digital (9403),
and Solenoid (9472) modules

Highlighted by me.
The only CRio identified in the most recent KoP checklist is the CRIO-FRCII.
There is no CRIO-FRC in the most recent KoP checklist, thus a qty of 0 in the most recent KoP checklist. As per their exact wording (Inside the parenthisis(sp?)), we cannot cost account the CRio-FRC at $0.

kjohnson

28-02-2012 20:06

Re: cRio-FRC in BOM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur (Post 1136399)

Page 19

Highlighted by me.
The only CRio identified in the most recent KoP checklist is the CRIO-FRCII.
There is no CRIO-FRC in the most recent KoP checklist, thus a qty of 0 in the most recent KoP checklist. As per their exact wording (Inside the parenthisis(sp?)), we cannot cost account the CRio-FRC at $0.

But the Rookie checklist isn't your checklist. You would have to go back to the checklist where you first got your 8-slot cRIO.

Daniel_LaFleur

28-02-2012 20:15

Re: cRio-FRC in BOM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nukemknight (Post 1136401)

But the Rookie checklist isn't your checklist. You would have to go back to the checklist where you first got your 8-slot cRIO.

Incorrect:

Quote:

Originally Posted by BOM Template

This is a sample Bill of Material Template (BOM) for use in the 2012 FIRST(R) Robotics Competition Game, Rebound RumbleTM. All parts required by The Robot Section 4 should be entered into the BOM. The BOM helps Inspectors verify part use and legality on Robots.

Any item that was included in the Rookie KOP but not the Veteran KOP should be considered a KOP item and indicated on the BOM. Costs are to be recorded per Section 4.1.3 of The Robot, which can be found at http://frc-manual.usfirst.org.

Highlighted by me.

andreboos

28-02-2012 20:16

Re: cRio-FRC in BOM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nate Laverdure (Post 1136379)

I interpret [R13] Exception A to mean: items listed on the most recent revision of any year's KOP Checklist (qty is limited to the total listed)

The 2007 Kit of Parts included four Victor motor controllers. This year's KOP included one. Would up to four Victors be exempt from cost calculations this year? By this interpretation, they would, and a team could include four Victors and four Jaguars without a cost penalty. This is not contradictory, but I doubt it is the intended effect of the rule.

However, this interpretation is necessary to make the 8-slot cRIO legal, which is clearly the intent.

The interpretation I prefer is this: items are exempt from cost calculations at the quantity they were last included in a kit of parts checklist.

This means that a single cRIO-FRC would be exempt from cost calculations, because the last checklist in which it was included (2011), has quantity one. Victors would be exempt up to quantity one, because one was included this year. Next year, if Victors are not included in the KOP, one would still be exempt from cost calculations.

kjohnson

28-02-2012 20:25

Re: cRio-FRC in BOM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur (Post 1136411)

Incorrect:

I'm aware of that statement, but at some point in the past you still had the 8-slot cRIO-FRC on your KOP checklist.

Here is the "most recent" version of the KOP checklist that included the cRIO-FRC. Page 7 of the 2009 KOP Checklist.

Daniel_LaFleur

28-02-2012 20:30

Re: cRio-FRC in BOM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nukemknight (Post 1136419)

Correct.

But the wording is "Most recent checklist", not "Most recent checklist that the item was on".

Personally, I hope your interpretation is taken. Otherwise, we're going to have lots of issues at GSR on Thursday (My team included). :ahh:

Nate Laverdure

28-02-2012 20:38

Re: cRio-FRC in BOM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur (Post 1136399)

As per their exact wording (Inside the parenthisis(sp?)), we cannot cost account the CRio-FRC at $0.

Thanks for your patience in explaining this. Based on this reading of the rule, I'll agree that the "exact wording" appears to run counter to the meaning of the rule. However, I can offer no further solution other than to say that "words are imperfect symbols to communicate intent."

(This is not to exonerate the rule-crafters-- I've said before that with proper review, the manual can and should be free of grievous errors. However, the closer you examine the language, the more interpretative intricacies you'll find.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by andreboos (Post 1136413)

The interpretation I prefer is this: items are exempt from cost calculations at the quantity they were last included in a kit of parts checklist.

Yes, if I were the GDC, I'd agree with that interpretation.

DonRotolo

28-02-2012 20:39

Re: cRio-FRC in BOM

Everything in this thread is an early April Fools joke, right?

I mean, you can't seriously equate "Not on the list" with "On the list with a quantity of zero". Those are not even close to the same.

It's threads like this that has the GDC pleading with us to stop "lawyering" the rules. I mean, seriously. Sheesh.

kjohnson

28-02-2012 20:47

Re: cRio-FRC in BOM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonRotolo (Post 1136424)

It's threads like this that has the GDC pleading with us to stop "lawyering" the rules. I mean, seriously. Sheesh.

QFT. Wasn't that the point of the smaller manual this year? Whatever happened to the intent of the rule?

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