Chief Delphi - Ball deflectors.....don't

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- - Ball deflectors.....don't (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104067)

RogerR

04-03-2012 23:54

Re: Ball deflectors.....don't

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary Dillard (Post 1138753)

The head referee at Smoky Mountains came to our team and the team next to us in the pits first thing Friday morning and asked to speak with the drive teams; he specifically told us we were allowed to have a fifth person that did not count toward our 4 on the drive team that could stand on the side of the court and give hand signals. I assume he did the same to all the teams there.

Wow.

Not that I would change anything at this point, but we were never told that, and none of the teams we worked with ever mentioned it. This could have been a game changer for us. I don't recall 772 or 234 having a spotter either. I just ran back and forth behind the driver station trying to get a clear angle on the other side of the bridge. After we tipped twice because of balls, we installed a back up camera to look for them, but never got it to work properly.

I feel like this might've been something to call a drivers meeting for; maybe they told someone in our pit, and it didn't make it to me or my drive team, but that's unlikely.

Siri	05-03-2012 02:29

Re: Ball deflectors.....don't

Quote:

Originally Posted by slijin (Post 1138843)

Interesting. Thanks for the info; I wonder if refs at later regionals will also allow it, considering forum consensus seems to be that this wasn't allowed at Kettering or Alamo.

Nor Hatboro-Horsham. This would have made a huge difference to a lot of teams. We did coordinate about the Co-Op bridge in quals, though. We couldn't have a separate spotter; it was just up to the coaches.

Gary Dillard

05-03-2012 08:33

Re: Ball deflectors.....don't

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday (Post 1138980)

That's frankly quite bizarre. It would seem that the head ref overstepped his boundaries, and changed the rules quite dramatically. I hope that they had a chat with FIRST before this rule change.

Since it happened first thing Friday, naturally I assumed there was some kind of telecon after first practice day of first regionals and this was the result; sounds like it wasn't the case. I will mention that Dr. Aidan Browne, the "head head referee", was one of the judges at this regional and maybe there was a consult.

45Auto

05-03-2012 08:40

Re: Ball deflectors.....don't

I was personally planning to have a kid in the stands with a big sign they waved if there was a ball under the bridge. That was a pretty common practice in Breakaway (2010) to let the drive teams know that there were balls available up against the driver station wall right in front of them that they were unable to see.

If they formalize it, fine, if not, there'll be lots of teams with someone on the sideline or in the stands giving hand signals.

kjohnson

05-03-2012 08:59

Re: Ball deflectors.....don't

Teams,

Make sure to ask the question about having an extra team member beside the field for the purpose of signaling in your driver's meeting. Until an official Team Update is released, no one knows whether this will be allowed or not. Better to be safe than sorry.

Please do NOT utilize your Safety Captain or Media Pass team member to signal from the side of the field unless explicitly told you can do so. I have seen teams receive a yellow card for gaining an unfair advantage by doing that. Signaling from the stands is fine because everyone has the same opportunity.

JB987

05-03-2012 09:36

Re: Ball deflectors.....don't

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy A. (Post 1138995)

At GSR we were told that we could have the Safety Captain handle the robot cart, and stand on the sidelines with the carts. We were not told that he/she could give hand signals, though I suppose you could.

The 'solution' is for drivers to recognize how a bridge behaves when a ball is trapped in a place they can't see. If it's not working, stop trying to drop the bridge and figure out a way to either tip it up to clear the ball or pursue something else.

It is possible for a robot to get on the bridge from the other side and 'crush' the ball enough in most cases for a second robot to get on the bridge on the ball side. It depends on where the ball is under the bridge and how much of a lip the robot can climb over.

I agree. A rule change isn't really needed. Careful observation (and) second camera could make a huge difference...ignorance is not bliss in this case.:)

Josh Fox

05-03-2012 11:43

Re: Ball deflectors.....don't

Quote:

Originally Posted by nukemknight (Post 1139335)

Signaling from the stands is fine because everyone has the same opportunity.

I would be careful about that. I'll admit I haven't gone over the manual with a fine-toothed comb this year since I'm not really involved with FIRST that much this season, but I'm fairly confident signaling from the stands has been just as illegal as signaling from the sideline in years past.

I know that in 2010 there were some people who signalled which direction 469's deflector was facing from the stands, and that was just in poor taste in my opinion.

kjohnson

05-03-2012 11:55

Re: Ball deflectors.....don't

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josh Fox (Post 1139424)

I would be careful about that.
...
that was just in poor taste in my opinion.

I completely agree. Although using the crowd isn't exactly outlawed, the teams with seats close to the field have an advantage. Ultimately that decisions is left to the Head Ref:

Quote:

Originally Posted by T15

The Head Referee may assign a Yellow Card as a warning of egregious Robot or team member behavior at the Arena.

I've seen that call against a team using their Media Pass member beside the field to signal the drivers, but I'm not aware of any calls against teams in the stands.

billbo911

08-03-2012 17:17

Re: Ball deflectors.....don't

Based on a few practice rounds that I watched today, I believe the modifications to the ball deflector actually works quite well. I saw only one ball under a bridge. It came out as soon as the bridge was lifted a couple inches.

Ty Tremblay

08-03-2012 18:08

Re: Ball deflectors.....don't

Quote:

Originally Posted by billbo911 (Post 1141131)

I'll second this. I did field reset during the practice matches at the WPI Regional. Balls that roll under the bridge immediately roll back out unless they're pinched by the bridge and the deflector (which happens rarely). From what I've seen, the only time balls prevent a team from tipping the bridge is when they're prevented from rolling out by the robot that's trying to tip it.

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