Chief Delphi - 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East

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Chief Delphi (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/index.php)

- Regional Competitions (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=10)

- - 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104182)

Bjenks548

10-03-2012 23:26

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East

Thanks to everyone for opening up their regional to the Americans. Special thanks to 1075 and 4307 for being great alliance partners and having the best lost ever.

Also to answer some questions about the triple we pulled off, 4307 lowered their bridge manipulator into 1075 to hook in. We followed in the back and pushed all 3 robots up the bridge. We were chosen to go last due to our lack of bridge space needed and our low gear. It was a lot of fun to pull this together during lunch.

On behalf of all Robostangs, I just wanted to thank all the teams for showing their Canadian hospitality.

Team 3705

11-03-2012 05:26

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East

Good match everyone... wish we could have gotten into the quarter finals...We were so close...
Congratulations to Team 1219,2056,and 1114!

I still cannot believe that team 1114 lost :o in that semi match...

EDIT: Our drivers were complaining about how team 1114 was pushing our robot wile we were trying to make some shots....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhnOasQtW5I&t=0m26s
In the future, should our robot try to clear away so that other teams that can shoot... should shoot?
Right now, we dont have a good aiming system...Hopefully that will change at Hershey's...

We tried our best to climb the bridge, at practice we were able to balance our robot. But it seems as if each time we try to balance, our partner or us messes up somehow...

Koko Ed

11-03-2012 06:44

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat Fairbank (Post 1141670)

There's video for the match in question here.

A lot of (presumably) unintended consequences of the Coopertition Bridge have been manifesting at this regional. It's not pretty.

The only thing that will stop that behavior is red cards.

mhat_ios

11-03-2012 10:03

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1075guy (Post 1141839)

I can clear up the delay after F2.

As the MC was finishing the F2 intros, myself and at least one ref, and at least one robot inspector noticed that 1219 had added a tabletop vice and 2 bags of chain to their robot as ballast. They did not report this change to the inspectors, nor did they get reinspected afterward.

The inspection sheet with weights confirmed that they very well could have been overweight during that match.

The delay was while the LRI and several of the event organizers decided what to do about it.

Additionally, there was some debate over whether 2056 touched the blue bridge while the 188/610/3360 alliance was balancing, and how to call it. (techfoul, or techfoul+interfering with balancing)

Personally, I don't like how the calls played out, but I'm not sure the alternative is any better.

Actually, on the field, we did not know about the weight of 1219. That is not what we were questioning the referees about. However, I saw Steve Warren, the lead robot inspector, talking with the head ref a lot, so I am sure that it was part of the discussion. After the match, several people on our alliance drive teams thought that 2056 hit our alliance bridge. We looked at a video that a teammate took, and it appeared as if 2056 might have hit the 610/188/3360 bridge as they were preparing to balance. (NOT accusing them) If you recall the Alamo Regional, that would have been a 49 point penalty, and a match DQ. We tried to show the video to the referees, but they did not accept our video. As human player, I saw the head referee looking right at 2056, and I was watching them as well. If the head referee did not call it, since he was watching, I respect the call, or lack there of. We had a hard fought, exciting finals. Lots of fun. Congrats to 1114, 2056, and 1219 for a great played finals, and tournament, and for taking home the gold.

-Michael

Jaxom

11-03-2012 10:49

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East

A couple of questions:
* What was the official reason for replaying QF 3-2? The youtube posts show the "we mis-scored a basket" reason for the change in the score of the original match, but why replay? I'm guessing it was a "we would have tried to score more if we'd known we were actually behind" protest, but I'm curious if that was it or not.
* What's connecting the two arms of 188's appendage once it's outside of the frame perimeter? The video isn't clear enough for me to tell.

Aidan S.

11-03-2012 10:59

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaxom (Post 1142061)

The offical reason that QF 3-2 was replayed was that all three members of our alliance (610, 188, 3360) had experienced errors with our controls, causing a significant lag time between when we gave the robot a command to when it responded (about three seconds). That made it very difficult for us to make shots and impossible to balance. The referees thought that the best course of action was to replay the match.

188's appendage was connected by a retractable wire that would pull itself tight when outside the frame perimeter.

EricH

11-03-2012 11:21

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawkeye610 (Post 1142064)

Not that that needed to happen... but the refs' call is final, eh?

Shankar M

11-03-2012 11:36

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East

QF 3-2 was replayed because a ball, that had been jammed in the chute, was unintentionally re-entered back onto the field as a volunteer attempted to free the jam. Such an event calls for a replay - our alliance had no issues with this. (All three teams on the alliance did in fact experience lag, but I do not believe that this was the reason for the replay.)

I think this weekend was interesting to say the least. The intentions of the teams at the event were very clear all regional long which made the feat of 1114 seeding first all the more impressive. Regardless of what transpired, 1114, 2056, and 1219 pulled off a regional win and I congratulate them for their performance.

Irrespective of whether [T03] or [G25] should have been called, had our alliance been able to execute on the match plan that we had run for three consecutive matches prior to the finals, whether the calls were made or not would have been moot. That said, I want to take nothing away from our fantastic partners: 610 (we both know that the time is nigh for us to walk away with a regional win) and 3360 - you were a pleasure to work with!

I think that the events that transpired this weekend have exposed some of the intrinsic flaws built into this game owing to the GDC's decision to include an element of "coopetition." I'm intrigued to see how the rest of the competition season plays out.

Quote:

[T03]
A team will only be allowed to participate in a Match and receive Qualification Points only if it has passed Inspection. If it is learned after the start of the Match that a team did not pass Inspection, the team’s entire Alliance will receive a Red Card for that Match.

Please take note of this rule. It is important that FRC teams make sure their Alliance partners have passed Inspection. Allowing a partner that has not passed Inspection to play with you puts you at risk of disqualification. We recommend that you check check with your Alliance partners early and help them to pass Inspection before your compete together.

Quote:

[G25]
Robots may not contact or otherwise interfere with the opposing Alliance Bridge.
Violation: Technical-Foul. If the act of Balancing is interfered with, also a Red Card and the Bridge will be counted as Balanced with the maximum number of Robots possible for that Match.

Holtzman

11-03-2012 12:37

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East

I wish I would say we had an amazing time at the GTR East regional, but that is simply not the case.

From an event stand point, it was very well run. The ref's, FTA,FTAA, Field Crew, Announcer, MC, Queing, and Pit Admin were all spot on.

However, the conduct of a few select teams have tarnished this event. Throughout the course of the event, we heard increasingly disturbing remarks from multiple teams.

We had numerous partners tell us that they had been approached by a team, and asked to intentionally take fouls and cause us to lose.

We had our opponents approach us, and tell us that they had been told not to coopertate with us by their partners, and if they tried, their partners would block the bridge, and that the entire regional would be mad at them if they did coopertate with us.

We had a team come to us late on Saturday and explain that they had been blocked from their own alliance bridge by their partner, so that they would lose a match that directly affected the top of the standings.

This is not the FIRST we know and love. The actions we saw from certain teams at this event were despicable, and defy Gracious Professionalism in every way. To see actions like this, especially from well-respected veteran teams was simply astonishing. I don't even know how we got to this point. I understand wanting to win, and doing everything within reason to win, but what we saw this weekend was over the line.

I'd like to thank teams (This list obviously isn't full inclusive, just the teams who talked us about the specific issues.) 188, 548, 781, 865 ,1114, 1219, 1241, 1547, 2852, and 3386 who rose above the garbage, and competed with honestly and integrity. It seems to be in short supply these days.

Koko Ed

11-03-2012 12:46

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holtzman (Post 1142101)

I wish I would say we had an amazing time at the GTR East regional, but that is simply not the case.

From an event stand point, it was very well run. The ref's, FTA,FTAA, Field Crew, Announcer, MC, Queing, and Pit Admin were all spot on.

However, the conduct of a few select teams have tarnished this event. Throughout the course of the event, we heard increasingly disturbing remarks from teams at the event.

We numerous partners tell us that they had been approached by a team, and asked to intentionally take fouls and cause us to loose.

We had our opponents approach us, and tell us that they had been told not to coopertate with us by their partners, and if they tried, their partners would block the bridge, and that the entire regional would be mad at them if they did coopertate with us.

We had a team come to us late on Saturday and explain that they had been blocked from their own alliance bridge by their partner, so that they would loose a match that directly affected the top of the standings.

This is not the FIRST we know and love. The actions we saw from certain teams at this event were despicable, and defy Gracious Professionalism in every way. To see actions like this, especially from well-respected veteran teams was simply astonishing. I don't even know how we got to this point. I understand wanting to win, and doing everything within reason to win, but what we saw this weekend was over the line.

I'd like to thank teams (This list obviously isn't full inclusive, just the teams who talked us about the specific issues.) 188, 548, 781, 865 ,1114, 1219, 1241, 1547, 2852, and 3386 who rose above the garbage, and competed with honestly and integrity. It seems to be in short supply these days.

I had heard rumor of this occurring and if that is the case then FIRST needs to step in and put a stop to this kind of behavior immediately. It's unacceptable , period.

JaneYoung

11-03-2012 13:03

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shankar M (Post 1142081)

I think that the events that transpired this weekend have exposed some of the intrinsic flaws built into this game owing to the GDC's decision to include an element of "coopetition." I'm intrigued to see how the rest of the competition season plays out.

Does the element of Coopertition create intrinsic flaws or does it create golden opportunities?

FRC continually raises the bar for the participants to make choices and decisions that require honesty and integrity. Yes, the GDC can come in and address what happened, curtailing these ugly behaviors/decisions. It's a shame that they would have to. In my opinion, it slows down the whole culture changing process and, in some cases, bogs it way down. It's good to know that so many teams rose above the garbage and competed with honesty and integrity, keeping it classy.

Jane

Mr. Lim

11-03-2012 13:20

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East

I would like to share my thoughts and experiences from the GTR-E regional in thorough detail here on CD.

It will take me some time to process everything that has happened, and so I cannot post immediately.

However, it was no secret that I spoke with teams throughout the tournament about the rules governing coopertition points, and how they could affect the rankings.

There is certainly far more to the GTR-E coopertition points story than what can be seen on a webcast, read on CD or witnessed from the stands.

At this time, I ask you to be patient, and to keep the speculation and hearsay to a minimum. Many people have heard one person say another person has said or done this or that.

What I can say is that I know what I said and did, and will share that experience with you shortly.

Sean Raia

11-03-2012 13:26

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koko Ed (Post 1142104)

I had heard rumor of this occurring and if that is the case then FIRST needs to step in and put a stop to this kind of behavior immediately. It's unacceptable , period.

Should FIRST really step in on this?
I think every team that doesn't compete with integrity is putting themselves on the chopping block. I think FRC teams as a whole can govern this situation well enough...
You can't pretend sketchy practices such as this don't happen in the real world. We should learn how to be better people and work past them.

Koko Ed

11-03-2012 13:30

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Raia (Post 1142127)

I'm not sure if FIRST teams instituting "Frontier Justice" upon one another is the culture change Dean was looking for.

Sean Raia

11-03-2012 13:37

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koko Ed (Post 1142128)

I'm not sure if FIRST teams instituting "Frontier Justice" upon one another is the culture change Dean was looking for.

I would think of it as more of a self-governing system.
It's about being graciously professional without a rule stating that we must be.

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