Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

But if you're going to refuse, then say upfront that you're going to refuse, and please don't try to prevent others from going for it. (Convincing with words... well, depends on the words. Some of the examples mentioned in this thread are borderline or not good. Others words can be used pretty well.)

And yes, a team did ram the center bridge at GTR East while teams were balancing. I saw it on the webcast. I'm hoping that that can be addressed in the next update to be a minimum of a T-foul.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

I understand why much of the discussion regarding this regional surrounds the Coopertition Bridge, I find it surprising that there is not more concern (to put it mildly) that a robot that made major alterations was allowed to compete in the eliminations without re-inspection.

Either the inspection process is important, or it is just for show. Many teams loose opportunity to even participate in matches because they do not pass inspection - they spend hours at events trying to make weight or change their dimensions so they fit in the box. Out of respect for these teams, we need to make sure that these rules are applied evenly throughout the event.

If you make changes to your robot after inspection, you need to be reinspected. To do otherwise is the same as using an illegal motor, working outside of the Build Season, re-using mechanisms from previous years, or any other FRC rule.

So, how do we make sure this does not happen in the future? I think one major way is for all veteran teams to share their appropriate attitudes with other teams. Establishing a "this is the way we do it - to keep everything fair" culture will help teams comply with all of the rules.

Also, having an inspector watching matches can help. This is especially helpful for the "not harming the game pieces or field" rules. (In LA last year, we had an inspector watching robots that seemed to be popping game pieces and politely warning teams that they needed to make corrections - it worked well - teams were eager to fix things so they could continue playing.)

I do not wish to take anything away from anyone. I want to make sure that this sort of situation is avoided in the future. My greatest admiration and respect goes to the people at GTR-E who were gracious throughout the event - even in what seems to have been trying circumstances.

- Mr. Van
Coach, Robodox

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

I'd like to respectfully disagree with you. Sure, if your team wants to not cooperate, that's your strategy decision... but going around to every other team at the regional and telling them that the whole regional will be mad at them if they cooperate with one specific team? It's ungracious, unprofessional, and it's just ugly behavior. As Tyler said, that's not playing to win, that's playing to make someone else lose, by manipulating other teams for your own gain. And that is just plain wrong.

I've been following this discussion, as well as spoken to some people about it, and I can't see any side of this where a team intentionally going around the regional, convincing teams to collectively work against one or two specific teams is at all acceptable.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

Firstly, on behalf of FRC Team 1241 I would like to congratulate Teams 1114, 2056 and 1219 on their Regional victory and 1114 on another Chairman's Award. We will be rooting for you to take home the Chairman's Award at St Louis!

I was a Robot Inspector/Queuer at this regional event (my first time volunteering at an FRC Regional) and was very impressed by the teams and all the volunteers. I would also like to thank Karthik Kanagasabapathy (who, if my understanding is correct) was the regional coordinator. This was the first regional competition that was consistently running early (by approximately 15 minutes)! I started calling it the "Karthik effect" while asking teams to get ready for matches in the pits! ;) I would also like to thank Steve Warren for being a very dedicated FIRST Mentor and Volunteer. Within the 3 days of the regional, I was able to learn a lot from him.

The role of inspectors, as I understand it, is NOT to prevent teams from competing, but rather to ensure (as best as possible) that teams do NOT miss matches and are competing within the rules outlined in the game manual. From discussions with my fellow inspectors, we found all the teams were forthcoming with information about changes throughout the qualification matches. Due to my lack of experience, and the presence of many experienced inspectors, I was allowed to watch the Alliance Selections/Elimination matches and not inspect robots.

Upon reading this thread however, I am confused. I always believed (as a student, and now as a mentor, on FRC Team 1241) that it was a teams "duty" or obligation to get re-inspected when they made any changes to the robot. Where the penalty of not doing so was a DQ from a match and potentially even future matches.

If someone would be able to clarify my understanding about the matter in the last paragraph, I (and I'm sure many others) will be very grateful.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

The role of inspector is to make sure that all teams are safe and legal to compete. If you're not legal to compete, then you should not be allowed to compete.

If a team makes changes, they are supposed to go call an inspector and say "we did X and Y, check for legality please". That didn't happen in this case; the inspectors spotted it. That should be a DQ, if you can prove it illegal. With the scale "not available", then it's more of a "somebody call HQ" problem; it can take a bit to get the scale out, up, and calibrated.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

Prior to eliminations, our alliance had removed 1219's shooter to lower their CofG and allow them to balance on the bridge easier. After QF1-1, 1219 commented that their robot was not driving as well as it had before, so we added a vice and two bags of chain to return some of the weight that was removed with the shooter. An alliance member was sent to the pits to inquire about re-weighing only to find the inspection station, including the scale had been packed. The shooter that was removed was approximately 25lbs, and the vice and chain that were added were approximately 12lbs combined, so we were not concerned that 1219 was over weight and did not pursue the issue further. Had the LRI requested 1219 to be reweighed, we are fully confident they would have passed.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

Indeed. The issue with hardline "reinspect or DQ" stance is that it's nearly impossible to get reinspected quickly when you need it. If there was an inspector at the scoring tables that you could just ask to take a look at changes, it would be trivial to get reinspected, but when it's a major task just to get weighed, it's a giant barrier to innovation.

If a team has the option to either improve their robot against regulations*, or play with the same sucky (relative) robot, I don't see how it's such a problem to work on their robot. That's what we're all here to do.

That said, so long as inspection isn't available at the time, it would probably be a good plan to get inspected or at least weighed after anyway to reassure everyone that no undue advantage was gained. Remember, inspection's role is to make sure everybody is safe and nobody is unfairly favored. If a team can prove that that happened without inspection, I see no foul. So 1114 & co. should have made public that proof.


*note that there is no "improvement + inspection" option, because of stated lack of facilities. The basis for this post is invalidated if there is such an option.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

I wasn't at the competition either, but I've had the honor of spending some time with both teams at other events. I've spoken to their students, as well as their mentors.

How DARE you say something like that. I'm continuously impressed by both 1114 and 2056, and most of that is from my interactions with their students- in fact, I'm not even sure I've spoken with any mentors from 2056.

Before you start talking trash, think about the fact that you're criticizing teams for their 'un-GP behavior' by calling them out on something that's not even true on a public forum.

I think it's incredibly unfair that these two outstanding, role model teams are being punished for their success by people with terrible attitudes, both at the regional, and on Chief Delphi.

Yeah, they have incredible technical resources... and? That doesn't mean you can go crying 'mentor-built!'. I'm not even going to touch the mentor/student balance discussion, but I'm only going to say that there is no right or wrong here: if you're not on that team, it's not your business. However the kids get inspired is just fine by me.

Have you even talked to the Simbots, ever? They have a program called Big Simbot, Little Simbot. They have enough mentors that each student has their own individual coach- it's a family. Is that wrong? To me, that's ideal. I only wish the team I mentor had enough mentors to be able to work so closely with our kids and be able to guide and inspire them like 1114 does.

Your bad attitude is very obvious, and I'm sorry your team didn't have the resources those two do. But that doesn't EVER give you the right to trash on another team for working hard.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

I really don't think it is appropriate to be making such accusations (i.e. that 1114 and 2056 students don't build the robot), they are extremely hurtful and completely takes away from the hard work those students put in all season. The students on 1114 and 2056 work just as hard as every other student in the FIRST organization. It is very inappropriate to make such a comment, those students are extremely dedicated and deserve the victories they receive.
Also, if you were not at the regional I don't think you should be commenting on that either.
Both 1114 and 2056 show gracious professionalism and coopertation on a regular basis. They are always willing to help other teams in the pit, starting up new rookie teams, and volunteering at regionals.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

Here we go again...

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

Let the slander begin!

1114 and 2056 are the real deal and are two of the most respected teams in FIRST.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

Thanks for clearing that up. I was certain that the issue couldn't be so one sided.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

- Sunny G.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

@lara
Even if those teams do have mentors build their bots, calling them out in the way you did was terribly "un-GP", and you should apologize. As long as students are inspired, why should it matter?

That just about wraps all that up. :cool:

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

WOW! I really can't believe someone just wrote that.

I wasn't planning to comment in this thread before we got Mr. Lim's explaination post. But, Lara's post could not be more inaccurate, ignorant, or ignored.

We have competed with and against 1114 and/or 2056 almost every year since 2006. Whenever we are at a competition with them, they have been nothing but completely Professional and Gracious. We know that we have to bring nothing but our A+ game to either get selected by them or defeat them. All I know is if we can't play with them, we want to beat them fair and square. I am really disappointed by some of the tactics that were on display at GTR East. I am also really proud that 1114 and 2056 overcame them and won not only the Regional, but also the Chairman's award (1114).

This years game presents an incredible opportunity to not only win a match, but cooperate with your opponent to gain and additional 2 qualification points. It also give teams another opportunity to decide if they are going to exercise GP or not.

If you want to influence your alliance partners during your own match, to not cooperate with another team or alliance, that's one thing. But, to attempt to influence other teams and matched you are not involved in, is terrible.