2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

GTR east is next week so I was wondering, who's coming?

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

Team 1325 will be bringing Phambot to the GTR east regional! Good luck to all teams. :]

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

Team 610 will be attending GTR East next week. We are looking forward to competing !!!

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

2200 will be there webcasting, however not competing. Good luck teams, see you all there!

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

548 is ready to cross the boarder and for some tough Canada competition. I think were the only non-Canadian team there! Just because were from outta town don't count us out!

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

Team 1241 will be competing at the Greater Toronto East Regional next week. Good luck to all teams attending! :)

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

Welcome to Toronto, you guys will have a blast.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

He's not wrong :cool:

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

Anyone know where the webcast will be for this event?

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

http://www.theredalliance.com/

Every week 2 regional and district event should be there.

Good luck to all teams participating, and I better get some sleep now for the big day, my first FIRST regional!!!

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

I'm webcasting it with my mentor, it will be on http://watchfirstnow.com starting Friday.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

I'm super excited to watch this from Kansas. The team stack up is HUGE, and I'm just as antsy to see Simbotics as the next FIRST-aholic

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

*Ahem* You mean welcome to Oshawa!

Although none of my teams are going, as a UOIT grad I'll definitely be there cheering on some favorites. I pushed (more like harassed) the UOIT administration all through university to get them to host a regional so I'm not missing this! (unless one of my teams needs my help... *gives evil eye*) I hope to make it for part of the day Friday if I can get off work early and set some land-speed records from London, if not, definitely for Saturday!

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

Anybody know when GTR East will start webcasting? They've currently got Match 003 on loop and I've analyzed it as much as humanly possible.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

Go to the alternate GTR-East stream on WatchFirstNow.com. The original got taken down by ustream, presumably for restreaming the DJ content.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

Thank you. I've been using MadStream from Team 1323. I like the scale it does and watchfirstnow was being mean to me and overlapping and other problems.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

Same thing on that website.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

ON GTR EAST is back up on watchfirstnow.com you will have to refresh the page. We got banned by ustream for copyright infringement.

We have removed the music feed from the stream and added a ambient mic to comply with ustreams policies.

Very sorry for the minor down time, We will continue to post archived matches to youtube at

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...E&feature=plcp

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

Okay, I can understand refusal of the coopertition bridge for strategic reasons, but it looked as if there was a team that was (intentionally?) ramming the bridge to prevent another team from getting coopertition points after they were already balanced. I hate using the GP card, but how is that at all Graciously Professional? Obviously the alliance should've made the decision not to balance instead of one member taking it upon themselves to make the balance points void after the decision had already been made.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

I agree, I feel like there should be a penalty or rule... Of course if I were a top 8 team the team that wasn't competing graciously and professionally I would scratch them off my pick list.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

I saw the same thing and couldn't believe it.

If a team on your alliance has chosen to work with a team on the opposing alliance and go for the co-op balance, it is ridiculous to try and intentionally try and de-balance that bridge.

You have the right to say no and not participate, I don't believe you have the right to try and knock robots off the co-op bridge once they have balanced successfully.

If this continues at other events with other top ranked teams, it should be an interesting season.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

There's video for the match in question here.

A lot of (presumably) unintended consequences of the Coopertition Bridge have been manifesting at this regional. It's not pretty.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

I have a feeling tuesdays update will address this in the wake of GTRE.

Probably, strategies aimed at debalancing a balanced coop bridhe will be made a red card offence

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

The robot that targeted the bridge seemed to have been assigned to play defense on 1114, and for most of the match they did it right--get in the way, knock them away from their shooting spot, that sort of thing.

Once 1114 went onto the coopertition bridge, however, they should have backed off. The only thing you can really do there is damage yourself on the bridge, or maybe deny both yourself and your opponent (and your partners) those coopertition points. Maybe if you get really lucky (or unlucky), you get both knocked off and/or damaged--but then you might get into strategies intended to X, and that's risky. Continuing contact like that is not smart.

The blacklist suggestion--well, I probably would, but it wouldn't work on this team. They made it to the top 8.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

Is there a direct link to the Ustream address to watch the webcast? Watch First Now and the red alliance isn't working for me.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

What issues are you having with Watch FIRST Now? In either case,

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/frc-gtr-east

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

I'm having issues with all three with the feed stopping every few seconds, and it's the only webcast I'm having the issue with.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

I am watching on a censored network and the proxy I'm using just completely screw up the sight.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_dOh...POCJEP6KoJs%3D

If you watch at 2:15, it looks like the red alliance robot that is balancing with 1114 is actually adjusting their robot's position in order to maintain the balance. Very interesting.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

I can assure you that from the other side of the field it did not look like that.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

If thy were trying to not let them balance then why wouldnt the robot that is balanced with 1114 just move to makethe bridge not balance??

Regarding the webcast, all three different sights are freezing and skipping on me every few seconds...

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

TRIPLE!

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

I was getting excited when I saw this happening without a special mechanism

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

Also Proving that even if you get a triple balance it is not a definite win...

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

In that case, you just don't balance that bridge. I think this was just a "rogue team" move. Great way to end up on blacklists of good teams, with a note of "not a team player".

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

I think 4107 had there ramp thing, interlocked into 1075.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

But that triple still shows just how much they're worth. With the triple, they closed a huge margin and made it a much closer game for them to head out with.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

Triple balance just happened in a QF match, watch here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYyrLQlU2gA&feature=plcp&context=C4f26e6cV DvjVQa1PpcFOFFrMEVEWd4KDSvw0vZOXoPOCJEP6KoJs%3D

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

I didnt know you could call 88-52 close....

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

Well, closer than the 88-12 it would have been...

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

Yeah, you can see it here, http://youtu.be/AYyrLQlU2gA?t=1m53s.
I was saying without something like 148 and I beelieve (ha see what i did there?) the killer bee's had something similar, to stabilize the bridge.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

67 has something similar to, check it out at the Waterford contest.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

Thanks, I didn't see HOT was competing this weekend. Must've missed them when I was looking at the events

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

http://www.coderedrobotics.com/webca...t-Competition/

They just pulled off a triple and 103 points.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

I pulled it up just in time

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

wow 1114 and 2056 lost!!!!!!!!!!!????

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

And Semi Match 1 is a huge upset...wow, matching each other point for point, then pulling away with a balance. Finals here are going to be intense.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

SF 1-1 up on YouTube, just processing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRHGO...ure=plpp_video

EDIT: Above YouTube link was changed due to an issue processing.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

This is quite possibly the worst display of sportsmanship I've ever witnessed in FIRST.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

Wow, this is a long wait for results! Has to have been 10 minutes... and in the finals, too!

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

CONGRATULATIONS to 1114, 2056, and 1219!

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

There ought to have been an explanation. The closest I can come up with is they were checking video for a [G25], because it looked like someone came pretty close, but that can't be right under [T13]... Real-time scoring, plus a balanced bridge versus a non-balanced bridge, should have made it pretty obvious who won. (I have no knowledge of what they were doing, other than "reviewing the match".)

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

I was thinking something similar. The only think I can think of is that there was contact, the refs discussed but couldn't ultimately agree on whether it was a [G25] or not, and they ultimately called up FIRST to check... And there definitely should have been an immediate explanation. Imagine if there had been a 10-minute review in football or something, and then they never explained what they were reviewing!

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

I can clear up the delay after F2.

As the MC was finishing the F2 intros, myself and at least one ref, and at least one robot inspector noticed that 1219 had added a tabletop vice and 2 bags of chain to their robot as ballast. They did not report this change to the inspectors, nor did they get reinspected afterward.

The inspection sheet with weights confirmed that they very well could have been overweight during that match.

The delay was while the LRI and several of the event organizers decided what to do about it.

Additionally, there was some debate over whether 2056 touched the blue bridge while the 188/610/3360 alliance was balancing, and how to call it. (techfoul, or techfoul+interfering with balancing)

Personally, I don't like how the calls played out, but I'm not sure the alternative is any better.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

So was the robot weighed after the match, or what? That should have cleared everything up, and I have no idea why they wouldn't have done that...

I don't remember any technical fouls ultimately being called in that match at all, but I could have been mistaken... are there any replays?

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

It was not weighed, and the techfoul was not called. Video of F2 should be available on youtube from @WatchFIRSTNow.

I don't know the full details of the decisions beyond that.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

Sure is, all 12 minutes of it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3oej...1&feature=plcp

IIRC this is the only video YouTube has flagged as not viewable outside of Canada, we're going to get this fixed but for now you're stuck.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

Aside from the possible weight issue, IMO this is a Red Card.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

The question is, how far back does the red card go? If they added it only for that last match, single red card. If it was added during quals, then that messes up all of the rankings. If it's added for elims, then that alliance is out in QFs (or whenever they added it).

It's not as easy as a single red card. That's why it's unclear whether the alternative is any better.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

I believe the change was made in semifinals, but I cant corroborate that. I also agree it should have been a red card for red in F2, according to the quoted rules, followed by a reinspection before F3.

I believe it was further complicated by the inspection station having already been packed away.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

Thanks to everyone for opening up their regional to the Americans. Special thanks to 1075 and 4307 for being great alliance partners and having the best lost ever.

Also to answer some questions about the triple we pulled off, 4307 lowered their bridge manipulator into 1075 to hook in. We followed in the back and pushed all 3 robots up the bridge. We were chosen to go last due to our lack of bridge space needed and our low gear. It was a lot of fun to pull this together during lunch.

On behalf of all Robostangs, I just wanted to thank all the teams for showing their Canadian hospitality.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

Good match everyone... wish we could have gotten into the quarter finals...We were so close...
Congratulations to Team 1219,2056,and 1114!

I still cannot believe that team 1114 lost :o in that semi match...


EDIT: Our drivers were complaining about how team 1114 was pushing our robot wile we were trying to make some shots....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhnOasQtW5I&t=0m26s
In the future, should our robot try to clear away so that other teams that can shoot... should shoot?
Right now, we dont have a good aiming system...Hopefully that will change at Hershey's...

We tried our best to climb the bridge, at practice we were able to balance our robot. But it seems as if each time we try to balance, our partner or us messes up somehow...

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

The only thing that will stop that behavior is red cards.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

Actually, on the field, we did not know about the weight of 1219. That is not what we were questioning the referees about. However, I saw Steve Warren, the lead robot inspector, talking with the head ref a lot, so I am sure that it was part of the discussion. After the match, several people on our alliance drive teams thought that 2056 hit our alliance bridge. We looked at a video that a teammate took, and it appeared as if 2056 might have hit the 610/188/3360 bridge as they were preparing to balance. (NOT accusing them) If you recall the Alamo Regional, that would have been a 49 point penalty, and a match DQ. We tried to show the video to the referees, but they did not accept our video. As human player, I saw the head referee looking right at 2056, and I was watching them as well. If the head referee did not call it, since he was watching, I respect the call, or lack there of. We had a hard fought, exciting finals. Lots of fun. Congrats to 1114, 2056, and 1219 for a great played finals, and tournament, and for taking home the gold.

-Michael

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

A couple of questions:
* What was the official reason for replaying QF 3-2? The youtube posts show the "we mis-scored a basket" reason for the change in the score of the original match, but why replay? I'm guessing it was a "we would have tried to score more if we'd known we were actually behind" protest, but I'm curious if that was it or not.
* What's connecting the two arms of 188's appendage once it's outside of the frame perimeter? The video isn't clear enough for me to tell.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

The offical reason that QF 3-2 was replayed was that all three members of our alliance (610, 188, 3360) had experienced errors with our controls, causing a significant lag time between when we gave the robot a command to when it responded (about three seconds). That made it very difficult for us to make shots and impossible to balance. The referees thought that the best course of action was to replay the match.

188's appendage was connected by a retractable wire that would pull itself tight when outside the frame perimeter.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

Not that that needed to happen... but the refs' call is final, eh?

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

QF 3-2 was replayed because a ball, that had been jammed in the chute, was unintentionally re-entered back onto the field as a volunteer attempted to free the jam. Such an event calls for a replay - our alliance had no issues with this. (All three teams on the alliance did in fact experience lag, but I do not believe that this was the reason for the replay.)

I think this weekend was interesting to say the least. The intentions of the teams at the event were very clear all regional long which made the feat of 1114 seeding first all the more impressive. Regardless of what transpired, 1114, 2056, and 1219 pulled off a regional win and I congratulate them for their performance.

Irrespective of whether [T03] or [G25] should have been called, had our alliance been able to execute on the match plan that we had run for three consecutive matches prior to the finals, whether the calls were made or not would have been moot. That said, I want to take nothing away from our fantastic partners: 610 (we both know that the time is nigh for us to walk away with a regional win) and 3360 - you were a pleasure to work with!

I think that the events that transpired this weekend have exposed some of the intrinsic flaws built into this game owing to the GDC's decision to include an element of "coopetition." I'm intrigued to see how the rest of the competition season plays out.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

I wish I would say we had an amazing time at the GTR East regional, but that is simply not the case.

From an event stand point, it was very well run. The ref's, FTA,FTAA, Field Crew, Announcer, MC, Queing, and Pit Admin were all spot on.

However, the conduct of a few select teams have tarnished this event. Throughout the course of the event, we heard increasingly disturbing remarks from multiple teams.

We had numerous partners tell us that they had been approached by a team, and asked to intentionally take fouls and cause us to lose.

We had our opponents approach us, and tell us that they had been told not to coopertate with us by their partners, and if they tried, their partners would block the bridge, and that the entire regional would be mad at them if they did coopertate with us.

We had a team come to us late on Saturday and explain that they had been blocked from their own alliance bridge by their partner, so that they would lose a match that directly affected the top of the standings.

This is not the FIRST we know and love. The actions we saw from certain teams at this event were despicable, and defy Gracious Professionalism in every way. To see actions like this, especially from well-respected veteran teams was simply astonishing. I don't even know how we got to this point. I understand wanting to win, and doing everything within reason to win, but what we saw this weekend was over the line.

I'd like to thank teams (This list obviously isn't full inclusive, just the teams who talked us about the specific issues.) 188, 548, 781, 865 ,1114, 1219, 1241, 1547, 2852, and 3386 who rose above the garbage, and competed with honestly and integrity. It seems to be in short supply these days.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

I had heard rumor of this occurring and if that is the case then FIRST needs to step in and put a stop to this kind of behavior immediately. It's unacceptable , period.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

Does the element of Coopertition create intrinsic flaws or does it create golden opportunities?

FRC continually raises the bar for the participants to make choices and decisions that require honesty and integrity. Yes, the GDC can come in and address what happened, curtailing these ugly behaviors/decisions. It's a shame that they would have to. In my opinion, it slows down the whole culture changing process and, in some cases, bogs it way down. It's good to know that so many teams rose above the garbage and competed with honesty and integrity, keeping it classy.

Jane

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

I would like to share my thoughts and experiences from the GTR-E regional in thorough detail here on CD.

It will take me some time to process everything that has happened, and so I cannot post immediately.

However, it was no secret that I spoke with teams throughout the tournament about the rules governing coopertition points, and how they could affect the rankings.

There is certainly far more to the GTR-E coopertition points story than what can be seen on a webcast, read on CD or witnessed from the stands.

At this time, I ask you to be patient, and to keep the speculation and hearsay to a minimum. Many people have heard one person say another person has said or done this or that.

What I can say is that I know what I said and did, and will share that experience with you shortly.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

Should FIRST really step in on this?
I think every team that doesn't compete with integrity is putting themselves on the chopping block. I think FRC teams as a whole can govern this situation well enough...
You can't pretend sketchy practices such as this don't happen in the real world. We should learn how to be better people and work past them.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

I'm not sure if FIRST teams instituting "Frontier Justice" upon one another is the culture change Dean was looking for.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

I would think of it as more of a self-governing system.
It's about being graciously professional without a rule stating that we must be.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

Honestly, I'm not sure that the "don't coopertete with 1114/2056" strategy is that objectionable. Both 1114 and 2056 have excellent robots. If a team sees that by not cooperteting with them, they can cause a situation where they get split up for eliminations and thus weaken the powerhouse alliances in finals, it would be sub-optimal if they chose not to take that strategy. The team that was actually ramming the bridge to void 1114's CP points certainly crossed a line, but to say that the overall strategy of not cooperteting is morally wrong is vastly overstating it.

Example: In 1114's final match, 2852 chose to coopertete with them, which clinched the #1 seed for 1114. If they hadn't done that, 610 would have seeded first, split up the powerhouse 1114/2056 pairing, and finals would have been very different. 2852 had the power to make a decision either way, and they chose one way. Had they chosen to just camp on the threshold of the bridge, thus deciding the seeding for the regional in a different way, I'd hope nobody would think any less of them.

Maybe people were making non-GP comments this weekend that crossed the line, but I think making rational decisions about optimizing a team's chances of winning the competition overall shouldn't be anything to be ashamed of.

Note: I'm not defending any of the dirtier things that may have occurred (attempts to throw matches, ramming bridges, directing ire at top teams, etc), but I'm saying that a strategic level, sacrificing your alliance's own CP points because of a long-term strategy on the seeding table shouldn't be outlawed, and teams that pursue that strategy in a GP manner shouldn't be shunned.

Maybe there could be a code of conduct for CP-strategizing:
-Don't coerce your alliance members into not doing the bridge. If they want/need the points, let them go for it
-Don't try to unscore or block the CP bridge if an alliance member wants to do it
-Don't throw matches (although throwing matches, if it is actually occurring, would have been a problem in past years too)

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

2852 would be borderline insane to have chosen to do that. It was the difference between them being an alliance captain and not seeding.

There are so few cases as to where it's plausible to not cooperate that it's almost not worth mentioning.

Apparently the only reason at GTR is malice, because the lengths certain teams have apparently gone to to spite 1114 and 2056 are ridiculous.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

I agree. Also, did any team that was approached report the incidents to the judges? I think that is something that the judges should know about. I'm glad that there were teams that took the high road and decided that being graciously professional was more important than targeting teams.

I would just like to say to the teams that are ungraciously targeting teams for being successful historically and currently. Imagine being in the shoes of the members on those teams, just because your team does well, and has a history of doing well, people are downright rude and inconsiderate to you, even though you did nothing to them personally. How would you like it? I don't imagine you would.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

I respectively disagree - 2852 was an extremely good robot (they had the highest OPR once the top 3 seeds of 610/1114/2056 were accounted for), and could be certain to get picked very early. There would have been 2-3 alliances (depends on whether 1114 or 2056 accepted 610's invite) with very strong captain robots in the 1st 3 spots: 610, 1114, and 2056. Surely one of those teams would have invited 2852, and they would have ended up on a very powerful alliance with a great chance at an overall victory.

Related: Here's the final OPRs after qualifications for GTR-east:

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

Unless I'm reading the box score wrong, 2852 ended up captaining their alliance...so if a handful of teams passed on them after 2056 and 188 went off the board, why would that not necessarily be the same deal if 610 had seeded first?

Same outcome, different order. 610 picks 1114 or 2056, the other picks 188, the alliances are just split. A team like 2852 could still be left in a precarious position if not in control of their own destiny.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

We have no objections with a team choosing not to coopertate with us for strategic reasons. For example, Team 188 chose not to coopertate with us in our last qualifying match. We then approached their partner, team 2626, who agreed to coopertate with us. While the attempt was ultimately unsuccessful, team 188 made no attempts persuade team 2626 not to, or made any attempts to block or otherwise interfere with our attempted coopertition balance. I can't make that statement for all of our matches though.

What I do have a problem with, is a team actively trying to sabotage the success of another on or off the field.

This could include manipulating another team into taking actions they would not normally commit. This could include manipulating a team into taking actions that would hurt their own alliance partners. This could include saying you will coopertate, then not show up at all. This could include saying you will coopertate, agreeing on a time to be at the bridge, and then continuing to score baskets and showing up late to coopertate. This could include intentionally loosing so that a member of the opposing alliance is guaranteed a win. This could include influencing the outcome of matches you aren’t even playing in for your own selfish gain.

I have no problem with playing to win, but playing to make someone lose?

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

If I remember correctly, they declined 1815's selection, and thus weren't available for other alliances to pick. I agree it would be precarious, but a scenario where 1114 and 2056 are on the same alliance isn't precarious at all: it has historically been a lock they'll win.

Even in your scenario, they would have been picked (remember, it was only a 36-robot regional and by at least one measure they were the 4th-best robot there), possibly right around the 6th alliance where they ended up, but they would have been playing in an elimination scenario where the talent is slightly less concentrated, and thus the best alliance is much more beatable.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

Anytime a team or alliance does not play to their potential they are damaging the rest of their team and all of the other teams at the event. Choosing to "not" cooperate with any one team also means "not" cooperating with their two alliance partners for that match, so it impacts the ranking and seeding throughout the team list.

Teams are risking damage to their own reputation and that of their sponsors.

The only valid reason I know to "not" cooperate with any team is if you need to continue other play (shooting or going to your own bridge) to secure the win.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

I personally side with Bongle on this one. As questionable as the strategy is, for a 2nd tier robot to have a snowballs chance of winning in Canada, splitting up 1114/2056 is not just a good idea, its all but required.

It became apparent at the end of the day on Friday that there was a very real possibility of that occurring, and the coopertition bridge makes ensuring it alot easier than in past years, barring moves like intentionally throwing matches.

Its a question of who you're cooperating with.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

It was actually a problem with all six robots on the field. Every robot suffered the same connection issue (with the field).

The ball accidentally being scored just happened to happen the same match, it was not the reasoning for the replayed match

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

Also, due to the days events, 1114 and 2056 probably both would have declined 610.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

I may be in the minority but I really don't care for the way the top 8 seeded teams are allowed to pick teams in the top 8. I really liked it the way it was.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

I'd like to take the opportunity to speak on behalf of 1114 and to add to what's been stated already by Tyler and 2056.

First we'd like to thank 2056 and 1219 for being tremendous alliance partners and to thank the volunteers and Regional Planning Committee for a well-run event. Additionally, we echo the sentiments of 2056 and thank those teams mentioned specifically by Tyler. Unfortunately, the actions of a few teams convincing other teams to not attempt to receive co-opertition points when playing in matches with 1114 and 2056 marred an otherwise fun event.

To add to the ongoing discussion, I agree with Tyler and Bongle that choosing not to co-opertate is a valid strategy, however, as Cory stated, there are very few occasions where I can see this as being beneficial to a team. The larger concern for us was that there were teams convincing other alliances that it was in their best interest to not co-opertate when that simply wasn't the case. One situation we encountered when discussing co-opertating with another team they told us their alliance would not allow them to attempt the bridge and that "it was best for the regional" to not perform this way. This team considered themselves a second round pick and wanted to demonstrate their ability to get on the bridge with us, however, we found out after the match that they were told if they tried to get on the bridge that another team would hold the bridge down or knock them off. The team who wanted to co-opertate approached us after the match asking to show their ability to get on the bridge with us on the practice field because they had wanted to show that all along. This doesn't sound like an instance when it was in that team's best interest to choose not to, they were simply bullied and coerced into doing what benefitted someone else.

We also heard from a rookie team that they were told if they were to balance with 2056 that every team at this regional would be mad at them and it wasn't the way they wanted to start off in FIRST. It's not fair to a rookie team that a situation like this occurs where they feel pressured to perform in a way other than what they want simply out of fear of being ostracized.

Obviously these stories are second hand, but the actions we witnessed on Friday and Saturday made it very clear these types of discussions were ongoing before all of our later matches and other incidents were directly witnessed by members of 1114 and 2056. All of this culminated in match 53, as discussed previously in this thread, when Team 2185 intentionally rammed the co-opertition bridge in an effort to unbalance the bridge and take away the co-opertition points from every team in that match. The team's lead mentor later acknowledged that this act was intentional and has apologized. His drive team disobeyed him and was acting under the instructions from other coaches. We'd like to thank 1219 for their attempts in co-opertating with us in this match despite intense pressure from other teams. This did no go unnoticed by 1114 and 2056 and was definitely a huge factor in our decision to select you for our alliance.

Regarding the discussions about whether 2852 should have chosen to co-opertate with us, we can look at how things might have gone without them receiving two co-opertition points in that match. If 610 seeded first and selected 1114 or 2056 and IF that team decided to accept, the remaining likely would have selected 188 based on how the picking occurred on Saturday afternoon. That leaves 1815 as the third alliance captain in a picking position to select 2852, only this time they wouldn't have been in a top 8 position able to decline. If we've decided to use "OPR" as a proxy for robot value, then 2852 would be forced to compete with the 22nd best robot in the competition as opposed to the 6th best robot as they were able to do by co-opertating. Obviously there are assumptions built into this hypothetical situation, but it simply demonstrates the risk any team puts upon themselves if they choose not to use the co-opertition bridge, thereby knocking themselves out of the top 8. Team 1114 would like to extend a thank you to 2852 (in addition to those mentioned by Tyler) for being able to rise above the spitefulness being shown at this event and choosing to play the game as it was designed.

However, to address what was stated by 1075guy above, 1114 definitely would have declined had 610 attempted to select us. Their robot was fantastic throughout the weekend, but due to the weekend's events, 1114 did not feel it was right to compete alongside a team who would act in such a way.

To the teams that were trying to turn the regional against 2056 and 1114, I hope these actions don't continue at any other events you attend this year. To the teams who were convinced by those teams to do what you did, I hope you will be able to see from the discussion on this thread that you will not by any means be hated for your actions and I hope that you will be able to make your own decisions for what's best for your team, sponsors and school going forward.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

It was tried with top 8 not allowed to pick within the top 8. There were allegations of teams throwing matches to get out of the top 8 to get into a particular alliance. This lasted maybe one season. (I also recall something about there being a season where your first partner was assigned to you; my recall is very fuzzy on that.)

I'll take the lesser of two evils here. This year, the power gap between #1 and #8 alliances is much narrowed; I hope the GDC keeps something like this in future games.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

Reading this thread, I am astounded that a team would even consider ramming the coopertition bridge. An act like that, even if not done to our team, would earn a spot on our blacklist for years to come.

If any team is considering refusing to balance with a team on the Co-Op bridge, I would urge them to think of the ramifications for the future, not only at the competition, but for the entire image for your team.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

But if you're going to refuse, then say upfront that you're going to refuse, and please don't try to prevent others from going for it. (Convincing with words... well, depends on the words. Some of the examples mentioned in this thread are borderline or not good. Others words can be used pretty well.)

And yes, a team did ram the center bridge at GTR East while teams were balancing. I saw it on the webcast. I'm hoping that that can be addressed in the next update to be a minimum of a T-foul.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

I understand why much of the discussion regarding this regional surrounds the Coopertition Bridge, I find it surprising that there is not more concern (to put it mildly) that a robot that made major alterations was allowed to compete in the eliminations without re-inspection.

Either the inspection process is important, or it is just for show. Many teams loose opportunity to even participate in matches because they do not pass inspection - they spend hours at events trying to make weight or change their dimensions so they fit in the box. Out of respect for these teams, we need to make sure that these rules are applied evenly throughout the event.

If you make changes to your robot after inspection, you need to be reinspected. To do otherwise is the same as using an illegal motor, working outside of the Build Season, re-using mechanisms from previous years, or any other FRC rule.

So, how do we make sure this does not happen in the future? I think one major way is for all veteran teams to share their appropriate attitudes with other teams. Establishing a "this is the way we do it - to keep everything fair" culture will help teams comply with all of the rules.

Also, having an inspector watching matches can help. This is especially helpful for the "not harming the game pieces or field" rules. (In LA last year, we had an inspector watching robots that seemed to be popping game pieces and politely warning teams that they needed to make corrections - it worked well - teams were eager to fix things so they could continue playing.)

I do not wish to take anything away from anyone. I want to make sure that this sort of situation is avoided in the future. My greatest admiration and respect goes to the people at GTR-E who were gracious throughout the event - even in what seems to have been trying circumstances.

- Mr. Van
Coach, Robodox

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

I'd like to respectfully disagree with you. Sure, if your team wants to not cooperate, that's your strategy decision... but going around to every other team at the regional and telling them that the whole regional will be mad at them if they cooperate with one specific team? It's ungracious, unprofessional, and it's just ugly behavior. As Tyler said, that's not playing to win, that's playing to make someone else lose, by manipulating other teams for your own gain. And that is just plain wrong.

I've been following this discussion, as well as spoken to some people about it, and I can't see any side of this where a team intentionally going around the regional, convincing teams to collectively work against one or two specific teams is at all acceptable.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

Firstly, on behalf of FRC Team 1241 I would like to congratulate Teams 1114, 2056 and 1219 on their Regional victory and 1114 on another Chairman's Award. We will be rooting for you to take home the Chairman's Award at St Louis!

I was a Robot Inspector/Queuer at this regional event (my first time volunteering at an FRC Regional) and was very impressed by the teams and all the volunteers. I would also like to thank Karthik Kanagasabapathy (who, if my understanding is correct) was the regional coordinator. This was the first regional competition that was consistently running early (by approximately 15 minutes)! I started calling it the "Karthik effect" while asking teams to get ready for matches in the pits! ;) I would also like to thank Steve Warren for being a very dedicated FIRST Mentor and Volunteer. Within the 3 days of the regional, I was able to learn a lot from him.

The role of inspectors, as I understand it, is NOT to prevent teams from competing, but rather to ensure (as best as possible) that teams do NOT miss matches and are competing within the rules outlined in the game manual. From discussions with my fellow inspectors, we found all the teams were forthcoming with information about changes throughout the qualification matches. Due to my lack of experience, and the presence of many experienced inspectors, I was allowed to watch the Alliance Selections/Elimination matches and not inspect robots.

Upon reading this thread however, I am confused. I always believed (as a student, and now as a mentor, on FRC Team 1241) that it was a teams "duty" or obligation to get re-inspected when they made any changes to the robot. Where the penalty of not doing so was a DQ from a match and potentially even future matches.

If someone would be able to clarify my understanding about the matter in the last paragraph, I (and I'm sure many others) will be very grateful.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

The role of inspector is to make sure that all teams are safe and legal to compete. If you're not legal to compete, then you should not be allowed to compete.

If a team makes changes, they are supposed to go call an inspector and say "we did X and Y, check for legality please". That didn't happen in this case; the inspectors spotted it. That should be a DQ, if you can prove it illegal. With the scale "not available", then it's more of a "somebody call HQ" problem; it can take a bit to get the scale out, up, and calibrated.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

Prior to eliminations, our alliance had removed 1219's shooter to lower their CofG and allow them to balance on the bridge easier. After QF1-1, 1219 commented that their robot was not driving as well as it had before, so we added a vice and two bags of chain to return some of the weight that was removed with the shooter. An alliance member was sent to the pits to inquire about re-weighing only to find the inspection station, including the scale had been packed. The shooter that was removed was approximately 25lbs, and the vice and chain that were added were approximately 12lbs combined, so we were not concerned that 1219 was over weight and did not pursue the issue further. Had the LRI requested 1219 to be reweighed, we are fully confident they would have passed.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

Indeed. The issue with hardline "reinspect or DQ" stance is that it's nearly impossible to get reinspected quickly when you need it. If there was an inspector at the scoring tables that you could just ask to take a look at changes, it would be trivial to get reinspected, but when it's a major task just to get weighed, it's a giant barrier to innovation.

If a team has the option to either improve their robot against regulations*, or play with the same sucky (relative) robot, I don't see how it's such a problem to work on their robot. That's what we're all here to do.

That said, so long as inspection isn't available at the time, it would probably be a good plan to get inspected or at least weighed after anyway to reassure everyone that no undue advantage was gained. Remember, inspection's role is to make sure everybody is safe and nobody is unfairly favored. If a team can prove that that happened without inspection, I see no foul. So 1114 & co. should have made public that proof.


*note that there is no "improvement + inspection" option, because of stated lack of facilities. The basis for this post is invalidated if there is such an option.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

I wasn't at the competition either, but I've had the honor of spending some time with both teams at other events. I've spoken to their students, as well as their mentors.

How DARE you say something like that. I'm continuously impressed by both 1114 and 2056, and most of that is from my interactions with their students- in fact, I'm not even sure I've spoken with any mentors from 2056.

Before you start talking trash, think about the fact that you're criticizing teams for their 'un-GP behavior' by calling them out on something that's not even true on a public forum.

I think it's incredibly unfair that these two outstanding, role model teams are being punished for their success by people with terrible attitudes, both at the regional, and on Chief Delphi.

Yeah, they have incredible technical resources... and? That doesn't mean you can go crying 'mentor-built!'. I'm not even going to touch the mentor/student balance discussion, but I'm only going to say that there is no right or wrong here: if you're not on that team, it's not your business. However the kids get inspired is just fine by me.

Have you even talked to the Simbots, ever? They have a program called Big Simbot, Little Simbot. They have enough mentors that each student has their own individual coach- it's a family. Is that wrong? To me, that's ideal. I only wish the team I mentor had enough mentors to be able to work so closely with our kids and be able to guide and inspire them like 1114 does.

Your bad attitude is very obvious, and I'm sorry your team didn't have the resources those two do. But that doesn't EVER give you the right to trash on another team for working hard.

Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
 

I really don't think it is appropriate to be making such accusations (i.e. that 1114 and 2056 students don't build the robot), they are extremely hurtful and completely takes away from the hard work those students put in all season. The students on 1114 and 2056 work just as hard as every other student in the FIRST organization. It is very inappropriate to make such a comment, those students are extremely dedicated and deserve the victories they receive.
Also, if you were not at the regional I don't think you should be commenting on that either.
Both 1114 and 2056 show gracious professionalism and coopertation on a regular basis. They are always willing to help other teams in the pit, starting up new rookie teams, and volunteering at regionals.