By the book: wifi-less scouting?
 

...so if we want to comply fully with the rules (Section 4.15 states "Do not arrange for Internet access or phone lines on the site or attempt to connect to the Internet."), we should refrain from using 'hot-spot' technology to enable our scouting team to hit the internet - right?

That puts us in the position of counting on the venue's wifi if we want to use a scouting tool that's internet-based. If that fails, we can certainly fall back to a paper-based system, but that's less than ideal.

Has someone already developed a bluetooth-based scouting app? Or something that provides a similar real-time aggregation of scoring information?

Thanks!

Re: By the book: wifi-less scouting?
 

I know some teams rely on the cell networks with smart phones and tablets. My current plan is to use cow scout and the students can use their phones (and their data plans) if they have them or use paper and someone else can input it afterwards.

Re: By the book: wifi-less scouting?
 

I used a Pocket PC and laptop system with bluetooth connection in 2008 when I was on 234. The Pocket PCs created individual Excel workbooks for each team in each match, then that data was sent to the laptop to process the data in a larger Excel workbook.

Re: By the book: wifi-less scouting?
 

Wired network in the stands

>.<

Re: By the book: wifi-less scouting?
 

I'm currently working on a program that will be compatible with texting in data and will also allow users to retrieve team information / OPR rankings through text in real time. Should be ready in a few weeks.

Re: By the book: wifi-less scouting?
 

Right.

Do you really need the whole Internet? Or just a little piece of it? If the latter, how about bringing your own little Internet in with you?

In other words (and as dellagd wrote), use a wired Ethernet connection to your own server. It works great for us.

For what it is worth: Bluetooth is a communications technology, like Ethernet or CB Radio. One doesn't really write "apps" for it, unless you are intending to implement parts of the ISO 7-layer OSI model. Any "app" should be able to use whatever data pipe is available.

Re: By the book: wifi-less scouting?
 

We've built our scouting system on Google docs. Also, in the stands, we will be recording and uploading each match to Youtube. I see a great need for data (and video) from the stands to be available in the pits in a short amount of time, without having to rely on the sneaker-net. There is sometimes also a need for general-purpose internet usage on occasion.

In Long Beach, we have the wonderful fortune of having a Clear 4G WiMax tower literally right in the parking lot. Speeds outside are great; it remains to be seen if the same is true inside.

So, we're getting two Clear USB WiMax adapters and accounts, and two Cradlepoint 3G/4G routers. We'll send these into some regular 'ol network switches, and run wired LAN in both the pits and the stands.

Honestly, it's much easier to do it this way and use 3rd party servers rather than trying to build and run a local server, and we'll have the whole internet if we want it.

We'll have about $250 into the network connectivity to do this setup, using switches we already had.

Re: By the book: wifi-less scouting?
 

MOREnet has provided a public wireless network the past few years at our regional. That is as long as you knew the password. This year it was pi to the ninth digit.

Although when we used to scout we preferred to do it the old fashioned way. Pen and paper then organized by match number so we could go pull a teams match if we were considering them.

Re: By the book: wifi-less scouting?
 

I'm feeling very redundant saying this, because I've suggested it so many times, but the .exe on this link uses a computer but is not internet based.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...hlight=myscout

Re: By the book: wifi-less scouting?
 

Sneakernet works for us. We have tablets that we can pass a flash drive down the line to transfer data then run it to the pits. We're looking into Bluetooth, but that isn't going to reach the pits.

Re: By the book: wifi-less scouting?
 

Anyone ever try a 900MHz ethernet link? They aren't cheap.

Re: By the book: wifi-less scouting?
 

What we have done in the past is have a computer running a web server and laptops connected to it via ethernet through router and switch. However, ethernet cables break quite often and they get tangled up and you also have to run power which is a chore every morning and that uses duct tape and it's just a mess.

This year, I wrote a mobile optimized website because many people now own smartphones esp. those on robotics teams. It worked like a charm. Used a robot battery and power inverter to charge phones when they needed it. Other than that, no wires. Website is about a 100k load and then uses ajax to submit results which is only a couple of kb per match. Also, it has the added benefit of "knowing" the current match by reading twitter feed from FMS.

Also, with the way I did it this year, it was much easier than previous years to get data to the pits, they just looked at it on their phones. Before, you'd have to print/write information on each match and have someone run it down before the drive team left which took awhile, now they have up to date results when they want them.

Re: By the book: wifi-less scouting?
 

Beware of wanting to use venue supplied wi-fi. In KC the vendor could not keep up with all the ip requests. Cell phone reception is very limited at the GKG regional and everyone was linking onto the supplied wi-fi. At one point we had over 800 active ip addresses due to all the new apps. KC was able to handle this by adding more equipment twice during the comptetion.

Re: By the book: wifi-less scouting?
 

It didn't interfere with the FMS?

Re: By the book: wifi-less scouting?
 

No. we made sure the network was not on the same frequency as the game field.

Re: By the book: wifi-less scouting?
 

when 1126 tried to use internet-based scouting at FLR it was an absolute disaster, we constantly lost our wifi signal and we couldn't have all 6 scouters on at once, and then we had issues with being able to send our data to one common source. however, i don't recommend paper scouting, as it is very difficult to crunch numbers this way, and it tends to overall just be less reliable, because people don't feel as inclined to fill things out (my personal experience, coming from the kid that was walking around with a huge binder of scouting sheets at FLR)

Re: By the book: wifi-less scouting?
 

So does anyone know a way to set up a wireless network (completely local) that will not interfere with FMS (and vice versa)? Do we just run on a different frequency?

Re: By the book: wifi-less scouting?
 

If you read section 4.3.1 Robot Wireless Control in the rules, you will see that wireless networks are prohibited anyway.

This is probably made to prevent the wireless networks from interfering with the FMS, but could also be due to the fact that many arenas have vendor-supplied wifi and could have urged FIRST to make this rule. Either way, you shouldn't setup a wireless network at a event (unless it's a bluetooth PAN).

Because of this rule, our team has setup a completely wired network using a Apache2 server running on a laptop and a router to connect to other laptops which scouts use. However, we ran into issues with getting power at our last regional and needed to fall back on our paper system.

Re: By the book: wifi-less scouting?
 

That doesn't mean you can't connect to one of someone else's open networks (possibly from outside the arena) without internet access, and use it as a way to communicate between your scouts. That would be within the spirit of the rules right?

Re: By the book: wifi-less scouting?
 

If there is a Wifi wireless network that can be seen and/or connected in in the stands/arena/pits at a competition, it's in violation of the rules. It doesn't matter where the router is located, who set up the network, or whether it has access to the Internet.

If you really need to have a network connection for your scouting efforts, you will need to use 3G, 4G, or WiMAX networks.

Re: By the book: wifi-less scouting?
 

What? :eek: There's always more than a few stray wifi hotspots around the arena. The rules only prohibit teams from setting them up, not from using these wifi hotspots. Also, last few years, I remember there were competition officials advertising these hotspots (which you had to pay for). I doubt the intention of the rules (or wording) is to prohibit people from using wireless at all times.

Re: By the book: wifi-less scouting?
 

What i have developed is a printable google docs spreadsheet and a open office data base for scouting both in the pits and on the field

Re: By the book: wifi-less scouting?
 

Based on the discussion in this thread, there is no Wifi provided by the venue at Champs. Is there power? Our server system is a desktop; will we be able to get power for it?

Re: By the book: wifi-less scouting?
 

What I saw 1319 do: They have a scouting cart (just two wheels on it, like a small unpowered Segway with a T-handle) that holds a robot battery, a power inverter, and a network switch. Don't know if you'd want to extend that to a desktop, but it's a thought.

Re: By the book: wifi-less scouting?
 

It is true that in the past, the venues themselves have offered wireless connections. However, as Arthur accurately notes, you should bring your own connection if you expect to run a network-based scouting system. Not only is the venue connection not guaranteed, it may well be subpar and spotty.

The intention of the rules prohibiting connections is to ensure that no wireless connections interfere with the FMS. Given the prevalence of apparent FMS issues this year, and a noted correlation between FMS issues and numerous open networks, it is likely that this will be enforced more strictly than ever.

I think it would be more accurate to say that there's no reliable venue-based wireless. That being said, I don't recall there being power in the stands in the dome. What you may want to consider is bringing a DC power supply (e.g. a old FRC battery) and an inverter, much like those used in cars, to switch that into an AC power supply to run your computer. We use this system to charge our DS and facilitate our Chairman's presentation; I know that other teams use a similar method (1676 uses a boat battery, I believe).

If you do follow this method, just make sure you verify that your battery and inverter specs meet the demands of your desktop.