Different Types of Balls?
 

Hi all,

So we're currently at the regional in Chesapeake, and we've noticed that FIRST is using two distinct types of foam balls: red inside (firm), and yellow inside (soft). This is wrecking havoc with many compression-based shooters, since the ball trajectory and total distance will change so much. We've been fine, since we have been able to shoot at the fender and minimize the variation, but many teams have had autonomous completely wrecked.

Does anybody know if these balls will be standardized sometime soon (by St. Louis at least)? I'm sure many other teams have this question too.

With a smile,
Tony

Re: Different Types of Balls?
 

All the balls were all made in the same batch. I have not seen this and we have 25+ balls at our practice field. Only different between them are how much they have been used and the different compression, which as been already documented in many threads.

Re: Different Types of Balls?
 

I have no idea what FIRST is thinking, but I would guess that they won't change because it is a interesting difficulty for teams to deal with.
*note: I don't know what they are thinking, this is just a personal opinion.

Re: Different Types of Balls?
 

Do you have any pictures documenting this discrepancy?

Our team heard of this issue and started this thread to discuss the problem.

Re: Different Types of Balls?
 

Our 30ish balls at home are also the same consistency, but at the regional there are very noticeable differences. I've felt them simply when I pick a ball up, since some are heavier and harder to squeeze.

Since there are some doubts, can some other team confirm if they noticed any differences? I may just be sleep deprived :(

Re: Different Types of Balls?
 

The whole stiffness of the different balls has been documented in other threads already. But when it comes to a red and yellow inside that hasn't been mentioned. Newer balls are gonna be that way. When they started to be used they even out a little, but that is a design challenge of this years game.

Re: Different Types of Balls?
 

Our experience had to do with wear. Once the ball's surface has been scuffed up a bit (enough that air can escape easily), the ball becomes far squishier.

In 2006, we had alliance partners asking to cherry-pick from all of our bins (that year, each alliance could load ten). Might be something to consider if you're quick about it.

Re: Different Types of Balls?
 

After comparing game pieces to each other when practicing last weekend, we were shown a significant weight difference in two balls that were being used and actually came like that right out of the bag. Obviously, if game pieces were not regulated before the event, any lower or higher weighted ball would certainly be in play. However, I do believe that there was only some slight differences in terms of scoring. If there is an odd man out, I would try and score it as quick as possible and if possible as well as not using it for autonomous/hybrid if your routine is hindered with the slightest amount of difference.

Re: Different Types of Balls?
 

Field reset point of view:

I specifically looked at Waterford after reading this Friday night, and I didn't see any balls with a yellow inside - just red/pinkish/orangeish (depending on the lighting) ones. What you may have been seeing is the yellow foam that is directly under the orange outer material of the ball - it is a very thin cushion similar to the material under the fabric of 2009's orbit balls. Occasionally the orange coating would be scraped off and some yellow would show, but any chunks out of the ball should show the pink.

New balls are definitely more firm than old balls.

Re: Different Types of Balls?
 

From what I saw at Lake Superior regional the only difference in the balls were that some were beat up and torn a bit and some were basically new. Our team really did not mind at all since the only times our robot contacts the balls are at the start when we take 2 just to keep them off the CO-OP bridge and when we bump into them randomly since we are strictly defense/balance.

Re: Different Types of Balls?
 

Don't let new balls get you down:

http://youtu.be/GxsalSrmCto

Re: Different Types of Balls?
 

I wonder if that is Legal?

Re: Different Types of Balls?
 

The two refs watching it take place in front of them don't seem to mind. ;)

Re: Different Types of Balls?
 

Team 23 didn't look into it since there was nothing we could do about it to help our situation at the time, but we noticed that by the end of qualifiers in WPI almost none of the balls were the same size anymore. At the same time, however, there were some that still fit into our cannon like brand new despite being torn apart. Whether it be different balls or just being worn down at different rates we are not sure.

Unfortunately for our team, being driven by fan power on a shooter, that meant our scoring power was severely crippled. We went from being one of the best scorers in the early matches to being one of the worst by the end. Had it not been for our ability to balance, Team 23 would've been dead in the water.

Re: Different Types of Balls?
 

I never thought of that, I might have to do it at the St. Louis Reigonal. Looks like a good way to break in the balls!




A bit off topic but, I was honored to be the 48th viewer of this video! :D

Re: Different Types of Balls?
 

This may have been what happened to us in Oregon yesterday. we had been making hybrid baskets very consistently all through saturday up until the finals. In match 1 of the finals, nothing was different and our alliance scored 30 points in hybrid. Then suddenly in match 2 our hybrid shots flew clear over the backboard, and in match 3 it was the same. we lost finals matches 2 and 3 each by 9 points.

Re: Different Types of Balls?
 

At what level of wear have the refs been replacing the balls? We had problems powdering them when a jam occurs, how much wear is acceptable?

Re: Different Types of Balls?
 

In WPI's case, the balls were not replaced until the elimination matches(long enough for our robot to struggle enough to fall out of the top 8). Once the balls were replaced we started scoring well again.

PS I do not want this to come off as a rant. I enjoyed my time at WPI tremendously and would recommend it to anyone, im just providing seemingly relevant info

Re: Different Types of Balls?
 

I was told to replace balls with chunks missing from them. I believe that we also replaced a few that had evidently been through significant wear (lots of black streaks on the outside was a pretty good indicator). I'm sure that ball replacement standards will be different for every event, though, so take that with a grain of salt.

Re: Different Types of Balls?
 

At Chesapeake we replaced balls that had chunks taken out of them, but were hesitant to replace ones that only had scuff marks. We replaced all of the balls (regardless of level of wear and tear) for the elimination matches though. I would assume replacing the balls then is standard procedure, but I would love for someone else to back me up on that.

Re: Different Types of Balls?
 

There are some very different density balls out there! We have one at the build site we call the Wonderball because the first time 216 shot it, we almost took out a row of lights, 3 ceiling tiles and the rack of parts at the far end of our full length field!!!:ahh: The next one we fired only went to the other end, hardly scraping the far bumper. We marked it and hid it where it will NEVER be shot indoors again.... It really messes with a lot of shooters.

Re: Different Types of Balls?
 

That is both hilarious and clever. *Pictures seeing 6 people on the field doing that routine* :D

Edit: its actually really neat to look at the wear and tear on the field at the end of the regional... We should have a "most beat up bridge" competition (not purposely beat up the bridge, but see which one has the most visible wear on it)

Re: Different Types of Balls?
 

How long does it take to...average a ball to your liking?

Re: Different Types of Balls?
 

I do not believe this metric was ever scientifically determined. :cool:

Re: Different Types of Balls?
 

All 18 balls were replaced before the elims started and before the first finals match they swapped out any broken balls from the rest of the elims. Before the first match only the red alliance took the time to 'condition' the balls, the blue teams got the hint and took the time to do this for final 2.

Not all of them took it to this extreme but there was a lot of single knee pounding and 'cpr' done on the once fresh balls.

Re: Different Types of Balls?
 

Although I too sometimes get angry at balls that refuse to go in hoops, I would recommend that gentle persuasion and soft massages often are more persuasive than systematic crushing.

Re: Different Types of Balls?
 

He made up with the ball - didn't you see? He gently caressed it as he loaded it into the robot. Ball was happy.

Re: Different Types of Balls?
 

We noticed the coating on the balls on the field were different than the (brand new) balls we brought with us. The field balls were glossier and consistently shot over the backboard when our (brand new) original ball made shots on the practice field. Never got a look at whether they were yellow or orange though.

It's unfortunate that this switcharoo affected functionality. I would recommend that FIRST give a few field balls to the practice field for teams to re-calibrate.