Religious Conflicts
 

I am an Adventist and I worship on Saturdays and do not compete or work on my day of rest. I have been struggling with robotics events because they occur on Saturdays. Is it different elsewhere? Is there anyone out there that also has this problem? I don't mean to start a controversy or anything of that matter, but I would like to know if there are other people out there that struggle with this. I personally believe you should respect God on your day of worship.

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

The Israel regional is on a Monday and Tuesday because of this reason. Many Israeli teams that qualify for champs unfortunately don't compete on Saturdays.

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

I know there are some regionals that are Friday-Saturday, like San Diego this year. One of the jewish members of our team never makes it to the Saturdays of our competitions, but he says he gets to watch the webcast the next day, so he's fine about it. Not sure what else to say.

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

I know the Israel Regional is Monday, Tuesday for religious reasons. There is also a student on our team that cannot come to robotics meetings on Sundays for religious reasons. There was even a team from Israel that advanced to championships last year that posted on CD asking about a surrogate drive team for Saturday at Championships (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94505&highlight=surrogate+drive+t eam)! You're certainly not alone when it comes to respecting your religious commitments and beliefs, and the FIRST community understands and is here to support you if at all possible! Hope this helps!

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

I know of a few FLL events and an FRC event that occur on Sundays. I have seen teams pass the events up for religious reasons and my personal conviction as a Christian is that I will not attend an event that occurs on a Sunday.

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

Idea! Are you allowed to "help" other people on your day of rest? If so, you can help your team mates in the pits, or help other teams in the pits. Maybe even volunteer, so you can still be at the event, and see the action!

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

I'm not that strict since my church has Monday night services, but even if it didn't, I would still be "[letting] my light shine before men, so that may see [my] good deeds and praise [my] father in heaven" by attending, so I consider it a non-issue. Especially since we won't make it back by Sunday morning if we go to Championship.

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

This was before my time but I have heard stories where the MOE drive team drove an Israeli robot for one of the days at nationals because the team could not. It seems like this would be a recurring problem, do they usually just not compete that day?

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

There is a FIRST Adventist League, but I believe they only run FLL and FTC events at this time. Perhaps you could contact them about the possibility of hosting an FRC event.

http://www.adventistroboticsleague.net/

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

As a Jew, I have always encountered this problem. In the past, I have stayed in a hotel by the regional. Of course, you do need to make compromises. I don't know much about Adventist practices, though, so this may not remedy much.

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

It depends on your conviction, but I know that I personally view my work in FIRST as a way of honoring God. I don't do it in benefit of man, but I see the events as a way to worship, and I thank God for giving me that day to meet with my fellow man and enjoy the life God gave to me.

Just my two cents, I know certain religions have stricter specifications regarding how you worship on certain days.

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

Last year at Championship there were several teams helping team 3358 (Y.T.P.T. JETS) Friday night to Saturday at Championship -- MOE added a minibot deploy, 357's Michael Crane took the lead mentor role, Danielle Sisk (Dean's List Finalist from 2493) was student team leader, and we served as drivers and pit crew.

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

Wow, this is an interesting thread. As a Christian* I suppose I would make an exception for a big event on Sunday. But, for example, while traveling home from a regional, I would try to bring a Bible or devotional to study so that the day has an aspect of reverence.

I also have faith-based reasons for participating in FIRST Robotics. I firmly believe that God has given me gifts and opportunities for pursuing a career and livelihood in engineering, so I want to thank him, utilize those gifts, and ultimately make his glorification the focus of my work. I think it is amazing that when he made this universe he created the means and structure for intellectual ideas and mechanisms that we can create, use for good, and appreciate.



*Evangelical, i.e. Baptist, etc.

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

There have been instances of people organizing a Seder for people from various teams when Passover fell during the Championships. We tried very hard to accommodate the dietary restrictions of one of our Jewish team members.

However, FIRST does not mesh very well with strict religious observances. They try; as was noted, the Israel regional avoids both the Jewish and Muslim observances.

But then, there are a lot of other events, such as sports, that do not make it easy to follow your religious practices. As with the rest of life, you have to choose what things you can do and still be true to your beliefs.

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

Being part of a Conservative, Jewish High School is hard for our team. We don't have meetings on fridays or saturdays, so we lose 2/7ths of the days other teams have. We have to make exceptions for competition, though the school still has problems with us going to competitions. Usually, we have to have one of our Rabbi's come in, so that we can make preparations to still remember the sabbath, even in the heat of competition. Still, there are advantages to being a Jewish team. At finals last year, we sent over people to talk to the Israeli teams in Hebrew. Also, we were the first US team to go to an Israeli regional.

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

For what it's worth our VEX league this year we had a Sunday session at the Jewish High School in Philadelphia. They wanted to have the finals at their school, but the teams from the Christian Schools didn't want to come on a Sunday.

So we waited until 1 hour after sundown on Saturday night and held the first Night-time VEX tournament. Upside, everyone played. Downside, we didn't get done until 11PM.

So a little creativity goes a long way.

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

The NYC Regional is Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Some advantages are that teams only miss 1 day of school, not 2 and that people who worship on Saturday or Sunday, can participate 1 day.

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

Thank you!

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

Sorry but that isn't even allowed. :/ My "holy day" is kind of like my date with God. I focus my attention on him.

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

Thank you everyone for all of your wonderful insights and opinions. Feel free to continue on posting. My team won the Traverse City District Competition yesterday and this is their second year in the FRC. I am praising God for allowing this. I am disappointed I didn't receive a medal, but at the same time I know that God wanted me to be at home resting and worshiping him.

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

Congratulations to your team on the win. Everyone on the team should get a medal. Ask your coach. We always get extras for the members who cannot be at an event for one reason or another.

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

I am not one to practice religion, so I am not any kind of expert. The way I look at it, volunteering is a form of "REST" for me. Maybe I do not see it as a vice, or a job, or anything else but relaxation. As has been posted, you have to decide for yourselves what route you want to take in life. FIRST is not about government or about religion. It is about " For inspiration and recognition of Science & Technology". FIRST does its best to accommodate on the large scale. It has to appease the majority, not minority.

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

I think of FIRST as a method of improving the world around me. Although I am not particularily religious, I do have my own sense of spirituality. Under this pretense of giving to my community, educating others and improving the world around me, it is my belief that FIRST is a good thing. To mentor a FIRST team of students to better perpare them for their future is one of the least selfish things you can do. I believe god would approve of my efforts to do good for those around me and hence I don't think he would think less of me for trying to make the world he created a better place. Even if that keeps me busy 24-7.

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

Lizzy,
I hope your team took a medal for you. You certainly deserve one.
Al

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

Lizzy is my nickname. My real name is Anna

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

Perhaps I'm just missing something, but I don't see how a Friday -> Sunday regional would be an improvement... For those who worship on Saturdays, you still miss one day of competition. For those who worship on Sundays, you now miss one day instead of none! From that perspective it's clearly not an improvement.

But, as you said, it means most people need only miss one day of school and one day of work... While it is good to minimize the amount of days missed from school or work, comparing one day at school/work to one day at competition isn't comparing apples to oranges.

It's fairly easy to take a day off of school to go to a co-curricular event and employers are usually quite understanding about taking a day off to work with your team at a Robotics event! Extremely few people are omitted from a Thursday -> Saturday event for employment/education reasons. By contrast, those that have their day of worship on Saturday or Sunday are asked to put a day of a competition above worshiping God... Some teams, as a result, are not able to attend competition on either the second day or on the third day, which clearly puts you out of the running for success on the field.

While this definitely has been true, it seems hard to say this would remain true if more regionals switch to a Friday -> Sunday schedule, where people of almost any religion are asked to skip worshiping God that weekend.

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

mom1155, you appear to be a planner of this regional. It's interesting to have you participate in this discussion and see your reasoning for this plan, thank you. You said that people who worship on Saturday or Sunday can participate 1 day. But they would be able to participate 2 days each, Fri and Sun or Fri and Sat. Could you clarify more what you meant, and how this is an advantage?

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

It absolutely depends on each individual's own relationship with God, and whatever happens is between you and Him. I do miss Mass on Sunday competitions, but I always find quiet time to reflect on the gifts that God has given me and how I am doing His will by using those gifts to help teams at a competition.

Although my belief is that God sees my actions in a kindly light, I won't know in this world whether he is as forgiving as they say. We are all sinners, and the best we can do is try our best to improve our ways.

TechLizzy16, if that means you miss a day or whole competitions, you need to evaluate what is more important in this life - robots or God. (Note which of those two names always uses uppercase...)

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

Stay true to your beliefs. That makes you a more valuable person then someone that chooses to follow the path of others instead of their own. You would make a fine addition to our team because you follow your own ideals. When one is honest with themselves they can be trusted to be honest with others.

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

I do not mean to come off as sounding ignorant, but i feel that everyone regardless of religion should be able to justify attending all of the regional.

Im quite frankly shocked that a team requested a surrogate drive team for this reason!

I truly do learn something new every day.

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

Although I have never missed a competition day, there have been points throughout the build season over a few years (usually around the last weekend) where I have to argue around allowing time for attending mass (Roman-Catholic). These arguments have gotten intense (to the point of me almost dropping robotics over dropping my religion) and usually end with someone pointing out that the team is formed under a Jesuit-run school, so the members should be allowed time to attend religious services. Although sometimes frustrating to some members (since I am the lead programmer/ team captain), people have admitted that my resolve to not drop my religious convictions when conflicts arise has proven why I am the leader (courageous enough to stand up to the whole team to argue for why I will not be in early on a Sunday, and willing to change my Sunday schedule to attend both mass and robotics).

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

Thankfully the one day my Teacher sponsor will not plan a meeting is Sunday, otherwise There would be some conflict. I do not consider Robotics work, not that I stick to that rule in the first place.

In the event we did have a Sunday Meeting. I would go, but not until I went to mass and had communion first. Otherwise I would feel very shamed.

I fully understand your stance, and agree that your beliefs should come first.

My view as an Episcopalian.

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

When you're an Orthodox Jew, it's not exactly a choice, to the best of my knowledge. You're resting during that 24-hour period. It kind of depends on exactly how strict you are in observance of the Sabbath, too. I'm out of my depth if I go any farther than that with explanation, so I'll stop there.

Admittedly, I'm a Protestant, and I have been known to miss church services due to traveling home from an away competition.

On the other hand, almost all of 330's students and their families have also been known to show up at the same service at our home church during build season, coming straight from the shop. (Saturday night service, at the time; Sunday morning seemed to be preferred when competing.) Then there was the time when we "dropped in" en masse on a church whose pastor had recently transferred from our home church... before heading home from an away regional.

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

I am really enjoying hearing about these different religions and beliefs. I come from a very conservative family that thinks it is a bad idea to meet people of other religions. I disagree because whether you are atheist, adventist, protestant, catholic, or a jew we are all sons and daughters of God. Now some of you may disagree but this is just my opinion. I care for everyone living thing on this earth no matter what happens. I have not been scared to share my faith with my team members and they really appreciate my kindness, caring, sweet spirit.

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

I am happy to see there is a strong group of religious people in FIRST. I agree that we need to learn and understand everyone's religious philosophy and respect it. It was great to see other teams helping those in need at regionals and championship, because of their religious beliefs. God would like us to learn tolerance and wisdom in dealing with others. It starts with respecting others philosophies. Stay true to your beliefs.

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

One of my beliefs is that I should always question my beliefs, and discard any that don't accurately reflect how the world works.

One consequence of this belief is that I can play with robots any day of the week.

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

How can you change a culture if you only believe in the principle upon which the current culture is based?

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

I know, right? It's incredibly difficult to try to change a culture that takes moral relativism as a given, and refuses to entertain the possibility that it makes no sense whatsoever. :yikes:

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

Well, I feel convicted (and that's a good thing). I am a Christian, and serious about my faith, but I haven't done a good job of letting my team know it. True, I don't schedule any meetings for Sunday mornings, nor will I skip church to attend a Sunday meeting that someone else schedules. But I need to do a better job of letting people know why. "Let your light so shine before others..."

Thank you, everyone, for the respect you are showing to people of different faiths. I can't expect everyone to agree with me, but I do expect to be respected for my beliefs, so I owe the same to others.

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

I do think other teams may drive and repair the bot for them on those days at Nationals so they can still get the appropriate participation and keep their beliefs.

Im Roman Catholic and I'd go to a regional instead of church, I think that me helping a team get their robot on the field pleases God just as much as me going to church (besides I can just go to a different church at a later time) But that's just me, every one worships differently and you should never do anything you feel goes agents you beliefs.

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

I understand the desire to keep Sunday off in Thursday-->Saturday events for reducing religious overlap, but at least in my experience missing Thursday for school/work is incredibly common. Even when we were based in a specific school (not religious), only the essential crew was allowed to miss Thursday. Many frown upon the number of missed days required in an FRC season. Many, even most, of our mentors perennially missed all or most of Thursday. It's a serious trade-off and quite a bit of time to miss, especially from non-sponsoring employers and universities.

Anecdotally, but it's just as common if not more for or members to miss for work/school as for religion. I believe the regional and district events moving towards limiting weekdays are just trying to balance this for their students, mentors, volunteers, venues, VIPs, etc. Having some of both seems to be a good compromise.

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

Who wants to try to implement a sabbath mode on their robot?

On a less hilarious note, here's an example of the downside of letting religion become too central to a fundamentally areligious pastime.

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

Many teams already do. It is called "Autonomous Mode" by some.

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

I was actually thinking about the implications of such a thing after I wrote that, and it turns out that halachic authorities have (sort of) attempted to solve these problems. Behold, a proposal for a sabbath-compliant electric wheelchair. They actually talk about sabbath-compliant control schemes.

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

I checked with God and he says it's okay to compete on the Sabbath, as long as you embrace Gracious Professionalism.

From now on, event arenas will be considered Churches or Temples and the Judges are your Ministers. The Head Ref will hear your confession...

But seriously, once again, FIRST gives it's participants a taste of the real-world, exposing them to challenges and dilemmas they will face once they enter the job market. This is an opportunity to do some soul-searching and address this problem in a way that fits your personal beliefs.

And they are called beliefs because they are something you accept without proof. They can't be proven or dis-proven. They aren't right or wrong. Either are those who believe the opposite.

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

Great idea. LOL :) :]

Re: Religious Conflicts
 

My team never had meetings on Sundays, and to my knowledge no one's Sabbath on our team was on a Saturday so this worked out well. We had a rule about how many meetings you could miss (to try to prevent people from joining to just show up when you felt like it) but i am sure that would have been relaxed for religious reasons. Robotics is great, but if you have a religious conviction (which i do) its just a matter of where you priorities are. To each there own, but for me, a robotics competition isn't worth going against my beliefs.

With that said, its unfortunate competitions interfere with peoples religious observance, but as others have mentioned its the real world. Learn to draw the line now, if you can skip the robotics competition now, you can tell your future employer about your religious adherence and you will be better off for it. It's not that FIRST is a bad activity (obviously we all know its great and can be very inspiring) but rather its the principle. So whether its okay with you to miss your Sabbath in the traditional sense for a week or if you would rather miss a competition, its up to you. We won't judge you either way, but one thing is for sure, as you get older making the choice will be harder and harder if you chose to miss out on certain activities for religious observance. This is especially true when you can rationalize saying "well I missed before, its okay if i do it again." I would say that where ever you stand its good to act on it now to develop the good habit of doing what you believe (whatever that may be).