Chief Delphi - Importance of Scouting for ALL TEAMS

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Chief Delphi (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/index.php)

- Scouting (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=36)

- - Importance of Scouting for ALL TEAMS (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104748)

kjohnson

18-03-2012 17:52

Re: Importance of Scouting for ALL TEAMS

Send your team captain to alliance selection with something to write with so they can keep up with who has already been picked (or just turn around and look at the screen). Second only to picking a team not at your event, nothing is more embarrassing than choosing a team who is already a member of another alliance.

Siri	19-03-2012 12:26

Re: Importance of Scouting for ALL TEAMS

Quick tip for anyone who doesn't have the resources (people/manhours, passion, something) to do major scouting at events. There's no replacement for good match scouting, but for later events, consider pre-event scouting. I try to at least get full OPR (overall, hybrid, teleop, bridge, CCWM, etc) data for all the teams at my event who've played before, and often watch many match videos, in addition to our scouting. Realize that teams do change a lot between competitions though, especially their first and second (and districts with 6hr unbag time), though the videos can help you get a better sense of who.

Also, even if you only have 1 dedicated person, coach them on what to look for (dunkers, defense, special hybrid and balancing/etc) and talk to them regularly. It's not as strong as objective data (unless of course that person really knows their game), but it's something.

After you struggle through an event or two doing this--setup scouting!

marccenter

19-03-2012 13:01

Re: Importance of Scouting for ALL TEAMS

Scouting of course is valuable for ALL TEAMS. One major challenge for a rookie or sophomore team coach/mentor is help the students understand the importance of scouting when they are a very small team (4-6 active students) who are happy to get their robot to function (spending all their valuable time/talent to make just that happen) and they have never been in an alliance captain position to select others. This was the position we finally found sophomore, FRC Team 3548 in at the Waterford district tournament this year. I have been on other rookie teams where the scouting students determined that their efforts appeared to be in vain (why scout when we will never be an alliance captain?) and lost any interest in gathering meaningful scouting information for the team.

It was also challenging because being the first tournament for many teams, the databases on Chief Delphi (3548) are not populated with historic data before the event, thus scouting during the tournament event itself becomes more important.

Thanks to Dr Ed Law of the Bionic Barons and others who put effort into making the data available for smaller teams - we will be using this data for our upcoming MI District Event at Troy along with the Michigan District rankings sheet on the FIRST in Michigan website.

Clinton Bolinger

19-03-2012 13:24

Re: Importance of Scouting for ALL TEAMS

1 Attachment(s)

This year FIRST gives us a lot of data that can be used to make smarter selections even if you don't have a full time scouting team.

By viewing the data from the event standing page (http://frclinks.com/e/r/dt) it can show who (most likely) has the best Hybrid, Bridge, or Teleop.

Just copy the data from the web site and past into Excel. Then sort by the appropriate column that you want to look at.

Personally, I adjust the point values given to the CP (CP*10=Adj. CP). To get an overall performance ranking for teams use the following equation: HP+BP+TP+Adj. CP = Total Points.

This data can also be useful to pre-scout the teams attending your next event.

I have attached the Detroit Data as an example.

Total Points:

Code:

Team        Sum of Points

51        542

1023        514

469        472

314        470

326        440

217        369

3538        362

3547        342

453        340

1504        334

2591        333

123        329

2960        324

201        315

1701        307

2224        304

815        303

2620        294

2611        276

3096        275

280        273

3175        269

313        265

1189        260

818        257

519        239

2832        237

2676        227

3115        219

3632        219

4380        215

3619        208

3605        194

3002        193

322        187

2673        180

3769        166

94        142

4002        126

3706        91

Hybrid Points:

Code:

Team        HP

51        134

1023        127

469        121

1504        116

314        111

201        110

453        106

123        95

217        93

2960        88

2591        86

326        80

818        73

3619        70

2620        67

2611        65

3002        65

815        63

2224        62

3769        62

519        61

3538        59

1701        59

2676        57

94        57

280        56

3547        55

3175        53

1189        52

2832        52

2673        51

3632        46

313        40

4380        40

322        40

3115        39

3096        38

4002        36

3706        22

3605        6

Teleop Points:

Code:

Team        TP

469        231

1023        207

51        168

326        130

123        124

314        119

1504        118

3605        118

2620        117

2960        116

201        115

815        100

2591        97

3538        93

3619        88

280        87

3547        87

217        86

313        85

2676        80

519        78

3096        77

4380        75

453        74

1189        68

94        65

3632        63

2224        62

3115        60

2673        59

1701        58

3175        56

2832        55

2611        51

4002        50

322        47

818        44

3002        38

3769        34

3706        19

Bridge Points (Sorted by Sum of Bridge -> Adj. CP -> BP):

Code:

Team        BP        Adj. CP        Sum of Bridge

51        60        180        240

314        80        160        240

326        70        160        230

3538        90        120        210

3547        80        120        200

217        50        140        190

1701        70        120        190

1023        60        120        180

2224        100        80        180

3096        40        120        160

453        60        100        160

3175        60        100        160

2611        60        100        160

2591        10        140        150

818        20        120        140

313        40        100        140

1189        40        100        140

815        60        80        140

2832        50        80        130

280        70        60        130

2960        20        100        120

3115        20        100        120

469        40        80        120

3632        10        100        110

2620        30        80        110

123        50        60        110

4380        20        80        100

1504        40        60        100

519        40        60        100

322        40        60        100

2676        10        80        90

201        30        60        90

3002        30        60        90

2673        10        60        70

3605        30        40        70

3769        30        40        70

3619        10        40        50

3706        10        40        50

4002        20        20        40

94        20        0        20

Tom Line

19-03-2012 19:56

Re: Importance of Scouting for ALL TEAMS

We make scouting mandatory for every member of the team. There is a schedule, and they fill out a questionaire as the team plays on the field. It's fairly simple. With a smart scouting sheet, you really only need 2 students scouting each match.

Sure, some students don't want to. I'm sure many of the athletes in sports don't like working out all the time either, but they'll never win unless they do.

Grim Tuesday

19-03-2012 23:18

Re: Importance of Scouting for ALL TEAMS

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Line (Post 1146359)

The easy part is filling out sheets. The hard part is making decisions about an alliance based on those sheets.

Tom Line

20-03-2012 01:23

Re: Importance of Scouting for ALL TEAMS

We rarely if ever have problems with the decision portion. It's all driven by weightings in an excel spread sheet, and if there are any that are too close to call a quick check of OPR gives us a good tie breaker.

Debbie

20-03-2012 11:02

Re: Importance of Scouting for ALL TEAMS

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clinton Bolinger (Post 1146140)

So you are ranking teams based on the alliance score in this example? If you are using alliance stats, you aren't getting a true picture of individual robots. Your posted ranks vary greatly from our individually scouted ranks. Some teams are carried by alliances, and some are hurt by alliances, which is why individual scouting is needed. (IMHO) :)

Clinton Bolinger

20-03-2012 12:49

Re: Importance of Scouting for ALL TEAMS

Quote:

Originally Posted by Debbie (Post 1146661)

Absolutely ... trust me our team does individual scouting at the events we attend. However, the method described above is a simple way to look at events you are not at. This is also helpful when forecasting or looking forward to the next event you attend.

Also I feel that the first few picks of the draft can be determined by the above ranking. The first pick is easy, but the 24th pick is the hardest pick of the draft.

This was just a suggestion for teams that don't have the resources or man power to do full comprehensive scouting system.

If anyone is interested in how we scout at an event feel free to stop by our pits and ask.

-Clinton-

Debbie

20-03-2012 13:25

Re: Importance of Scouting for ALL TEAMS

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clinton Bolinger (Post 1146703)

Ahh ok.. because this is certainly not the order we picked in, but I guess if you are looking at events you haven't been at, it can be helpful. It can also be a little misleading in that there are still teams that are floating up there that you would not pick as a top pick (and some down low that you would want to pick) but if a team isn't doing individual scouting, then I guess that would help! I figured you guys were scouting individual robots, just was wondering when you posted that because we were there and it does not match our data. :)

Ben Martin

20-03-2012 13:43

Re: Importance of Scouting for ALL TEAMS

I agree, having a strong knowledge of the teams at an event for draft-list making and match preparation is extremely important. I've had this mindset ever since a mentor in 2006 yelled at us for giving him bad scouting data. We buckled down and got better, and the match results improved as the scouting data improved.

At our last event, for making a pick list, we ordered the teams by coopertition bridge-adjusted OPR and cross referenced it to our scouted data.

We also like to print papers with our scouting comments and averaged data on it for theoretical 3-vs-3 match-ups. This helps when we discuss strategy during qualifications as a way to show that we know what we're doing.

junefish

01-04-2012 19:32

Re: Importance of Scouting for ALL TEAMS

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Line (Post 1146359)

With a smart scouting sheet, you really only need 2 students scouting each match.

Respectfully, I disagree. Especially given this year's game--that, theoretically, there can be an infinite number of balls scored, rather than just filling up a rack, like last year--it's very important to have each robot in a match given individual attention. If one person scouts just 2 robots at once the accuracy goes down about 40%--more if the 2 robots are high scorers. (In LA we had 6 people, and we still only got about 60% of the total possible data! :yikes:) It may be difficult to have 6 scouts in the stands at all times, but it really pays off during the picklist creation.

junefish

01-04-2012 19:35

Re: Importance of Scouting for ALL TEAMS

Quote:

Originally Posted by pfreivald (Post 1145602)

Scouting is even more critical than just making good picks (or avoiding embarrassing mistakes) during alliance selection -- it also helps you get there.

Before each match, your drive teams (or at least drive coaches) should be planning what each robot is expected to do -- that includes both alliance partners and opponents. The more you know about your opponents, the better you can plan how to handle them... and the more you know about your allies, the better you can make your plan.

Especially early in qualifications, teams tend to tell you what their robot was designed to do, not what it actually can do. As games pass and the evidence stacks up, teams tend to be more honest -- though you often get the "but it's fixed now... we think" line (which sometimes turns out and sometimes doesn't). Sometimes you'll be surprised when opponents suddenly come out with a new capability (because something was fixed or upgraded or what-have-you between matches). But understanding what each robot is capable of, and how it manages to accomplish those tasks, is very important to making plans before each and every qualification and elimination game.

So for example, if you know from your scouting data that one of your partners (or your own robot) can't score, and that two of your opponents score only from the fender, it makes perfect sense to send the non-scoring robot to the other side to play defense -- even if they can't stop all the scoring, they can likely slow them down, and this might be enough to give your alliance the edge. If your opponents are strong shooters or incapable of scoring altogether, maybe defense is not the best option and they should spend the entire game doing bridge-related tasks or feeding balls to your good scorers or playing counter-defense instead.

I completely agree--our drive team was really helped by the information that the scouts provided them, but we were still hampered by not having complete, accurate data on all teams. I honestly do not think we would have gone as far as we did in Los Angeles (Elimination--Finals) if we had not been able to use our data to predict the opposing alliances' strategies.

gyroscopeRaptor

01-04-2012 20:09

Re: Importance of Scouting for ALL TEAMS

Pit scouting is useful for all teams, whether you have a box-bot or a champion machine. We learned this firsthand. Last year, we had no scouting beyond notes.

This year, we made a form looking for details on all robots and scouted them all by 10 on Friday (62 team event, one group of 2 pit scouts) and had paper dossiers on each robot. Since our plan was mainly balancing, we learned after our second match (a 120 lb robot trying to balance with a 90 lb robot) that we needed to plan based on weight, form factor, and CoG to find the best alliance/co-op balance partner. We lined up perfectly in these aspects with the top teams in our event, and we would never have known this if it wasn't for pit scouting! We ended up balancing with the best.

vikesrock777

01-04-2012 21:11

Re: Importance of Scouting for ALL TEAMS

As the coach for Apple Pi through two events, I don't think I can stress the importance of scouting enough. It truly is important regardless of your team ranking, and I prefer to have some data before the first qualification match even starts.

At WPI, a smaller regional, it was often very rushed to create the match strategy for the next match. Any and all data I had from my scouting team helped expedite this process massively. Without a solid scouting team, I don't think we would have done so well and ended up seeded 2nd. As a picking alliance, the data was massively helpful. Without the data, I don't think we would have been able to win WPI (thanks 3205 and 190!)

At Connecticut regional, we had our pit scouting almost entirely filled out by the end of Thursday. Walking in Friday morning I already had a notebook filled out with a page for each match. I had written down each team and some of their basic information as given by pit scouting. I also included OPR's from Ed's thread (thanks so much for the data!) for teams that had already competed to aid in giving an evaluation of how the team was going to compete. Using this I was able to better plan for what we were up against every time. It didn't always work out the best in the end (we seeded something like 30th due to a very rough qualification schedule), but we always had a strategy going into the match. Going into Saturday, we had all of our match data compiled, which helped even more. We knew approximately how well each robot was performing which helped in the remaining qualifications. Going into elims, that data proved even more useful. We were able to use our data to very accurately predict our opponent's strategies, and make good counter-strategies. With this data we made it to the finals (thanks 558 and 1071!) Without this data, I don't think we would have done as well.

In summary, scouting helps all throughout the event. It is not exclusively for teams who are going to be in picking position. All teams can benefit from it throughout the event. It can help you in every qualification match. You never know, it may even aid you into being in a picking position, or it may be crucially helpful to your elimination alliance!

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