Elitist Teams
 

A lot of people have been discussing lately the negative remarks that are said about really good teams just because they get blue banners. But I want to explore a different side of the argument.

My team has never been a first super power, and highly doubt we will be soon. We put gracious professionalism at our forefront, instead of looking for ways to win matches, we look for ways to help rookies. So when I recently competed with a team that had an elitist "we're better than you" attitude it left a bad taste in my mouth.

This team is completely unapproachable in their pits, I tried to talk strategy with them, and they denied me even though they had anything better to do.

Then once we got to the cue, they showed up and I tried to to talk to them again, instead of a discussion, they told us what we were going to do the whole match as if it wasn't disputable, as if we didn't have a say. I was mad, but I figured we'll get the win and the qualification points so it's no biggie.

Then once the match starts, the team has a perfect autonomous, and we're against 3 robots that really needed some help mechanically so the score was 36-0 ish in our alliances favor. We drive to our alliance bridge to prep it for balancing like this team told us to, but they apparently wants the balls on that bridge and we're in the way. instead of driving around us or asking us to move, their driver rams into us and shouts at the top of his lungs, "470 get out of the way!" as if them getting those two balls were going to win or lose the match.

That's when I was ready to drop the controls and tell them what I really thought, but Gracious Professionalism prevailed.

Scenarios like this have happened with many other big name teams in our area at competitions before, and I don't want this to smear the pristine FIM image, but does anyone else have these problems?

Is it possible that people make the negative remarks because some teams treat others negatively?

Would this team have acted the same way if Mr. Kamen was in the discussion and behind the driver station with them?

Re: Elitist Teams
 

Unfortunately I have had similar experiences. With this year's game, there is nothing more important than having everyone on the same page and communicating effectively. With those elitist teams, what I noticed being on the field with them was that the heart of the problem was not the students, but the adults around them. From what little I was able to interact with those teams' students, they were very nice and gracious people, but their mentors/coaches were less than stellar.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

I'm fairly sure that your team can gather up the students, mentors, and resources and make yourself a superpower in a few short years. When it comes down to it, you really need to strive for excellence and always keep making modifications to your robot. That does come from the drive and excellence within the team though so inspiration and motivation will have to be great.

I'm not trying to be rude or negative but Elite teams are fairly certain what needs to happen on the field. Nothing against 470, I'm sure that you guys had great plans for pre-match strategy and I feel bad that the team didn't listen to them before coming to a conclusion. However, try and make sure that you do focus in for the benefit of your alliance.

This would have been one of the worst decisions. A great way to piss off a potential alliance captain selecting you would be to drop the controls mid match and give up. Just even the thought is slightly disturbing. I'd personally be making sure that I wouldn't lose the match, and you should be doing the same.

This specifically happened to me a number of times while competing in 2010 and 2011. However, I really embraced what they were saying and the team did the best we could to help the alliance win the match. I know it's not the strategy that you planned or wanted but it should still be a $@#$@#$@#$@# good one if it's coming from the team I believe your mentioning.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

To me, it sounds like the team in question should have been reported to the referees for a [G15] watchlist. Uncivil behavior during a match is a potential red card. (Or the judges for removal from consideration from some of the awards--that sort of behavior would probably merit removal from consideration from the GP award and the Chairman's at a minimum.)

It also sounds like a team whose sole goal is to win a robotics competition, no matter who is in their way. This is unfortunate. Some time ago, I believe it was Dean had something to say at Kickoff, something to the effect of "Sometime, you are going to think that you are in a robot competition. Then you're in trouble."

If the team a powerhouse, they've presumably been around a while, long enough to have heard that. Long enough to have forgotten that. Long enough to lose sight of the bigger picture.

Negative treatment isn't confined to the top teams. Witness the many threads on how the top teams have mentors build their robots. And negativity breeds more negativity. It's possible that negative remarks come because a team is being negative, or perceived as such. However, I think teams like the one mentioned are a minority.


If I were in your shoes when they rammed you, I might have tipped the bridge, possibly the other way, and told them later, "You guys set the strategy, and we're sticking to it. There wasn't anything in there about you guys grabbing the balls off the bridge." (Or I might have just dropped the controls and sat there the rest of the match. They keep ramming, see the first paragraph in this post.)

Re: Elitist Teams
 

Hello...

I've seen this before also...We are an average little small town team that luckly has done somewhat well. We've gone against and with
teams that have lots of resources and have done just as well. For some teams its all about winning matches and awards. For some teams its about showing the students what First is all about and sharing that with others. Teams that
have a "elitist attitude" or "better than thou" attitude are a turn off and
i generally ignore it while at competition unless something happens that is clearly way out of line. There is a old saying that what
goes around comes around and this sometimes happens to some of these
teams. To give a example at the Virginia regional this year on thursday and a couple matches friday morning our robot would'nt connect with the feild. A couple other teams made fun of us saying things like our robot was a piece of junk and such. Then after we were able to connect to the field and as friday afternoon and then saturday came and went we did very well (we went as far as the semi finals) and those who had made fun of us and mocked us fell silent. Some teams are humbled and learn and some never get it. Its unfortunate that this happens in a program that values cooperation and professionalism.

First is about teaching students about Science, Math, Engineering and
Technology and how it can apply to a students future and how it applies in the real world. In the real business world you have to learn to cooperate to advance and survive. I work for a large defense contractor (BAE)
who partners with other companies to do business. Sure there is a little
competition and one upman ship, but in the end we all cooperate. We have to. Don't let what other teams do discourage you from the goals you and your team are trying to reach.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

While what the other team did is not acceptable, I would view this as passive aggression and also not in the spirit of GP. I'd wait till the end of the match and try to digress with the team, noting what went good and what didn't go too well.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

Sometimes, peoples' passion comes out as aggressive -- they often don't realize how aggressive and boorish they're being, and while that doesn't make it excusable it at least can be understandable. That's one reason why it's important to have a drive coach (whether student or mentor) who is confident enough to gently but firmly call them on it -- and mention it to their mentors later.

On the flip side, if you get chosen for an alliance it's because the alliance captain has a plan, and they've chosen you to fill a particular role in that plan. In that situation I think it's important to keep in mind that they're the captain by right of placement, and you've got a duty to inform their plan but ultimately abide by it.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

I know that, this team is my heart and soul, I made the remark because of a possible (and in my opinion likely) consolidation between our school and 66's.

Where's the GP man? At what point do you realize FIRST is not about winning, it's "For Inspirations and Recognition of Science and Technology." Stop skipping Dean's Saturday morning sermon and understand his intentions! I love the competition aspect, but it's gotta have it's limits.
Love before Money
Gracious Professionalism before Victory!

Re: Elitist Teams
 

I do have a lot of gracious professionalism, that's something I'm not really worried about losing. One thing, however, is that I am highly, highly competitive when it comes to FIRST. There are no limits to competition unless they are negative towards other teams. Elites love to win and they fuel the inspiration for other teams and students to become better teams on the robot side of the spectrum. So even though you had a bad run in with this team, give them a second chance. I'm sure they would love to play with you guys again.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

Right. That's why I don't like this method. But, it is something I personally might do if I was already annoyed with said team.

At the end of the match, though, that's something that probably won't work. Remember, they didn't listen at all before the match (and that's not acceptable). Why should they listen at the end?

That's why the first thing I suggested was that someone should have informed the refs. And leaving the robot there (subject to the other team's ramming) would almost certainly draw a [G15] on somebody. But talking to the refs would put them on extra alert whenever that particular team was playing--they'd be bound to either clean up their act or get a red card or two.


With respect to alliance captains, if an alliance with that team on it were to pick me, I'd decline, which I can do for any reason, and after selection inform a trusted competition official or two along with the leadership for any team already on that alliance that the reason didn't have to do with either team's robot capabilities, but that I didn't think we could work together based on their attitude during quals. I don't think anyone's ever declined based on a team's attitude, at least publicly, so that would hopefully get them to do some soul-searching as a team.

Do I not get into eliminations? Probably. Does my action in that case benefit my team and other teams? Probably--not necessarily in the short term, but in the long term.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

Incidents like the one you describe Joel are one of the things that irritates me about FIRST competitions. (That said, incidents like that irritate me at work, they irritate me as a track coach, the irritate me when my kids are in activities. It is not unique to FIRST.) These types of incidents are one reason we have almost always had a mentor as coach instead of a student. Our students will not behave like you described, at least not more than once and not without an apology.

This is not to say that mentors don't exhibit this type of behavior. I agree with moogboy that most of the time I have experienced this type of behavior in FIRST it has been from mentors. But a respected mentor can tell a student to stop bad behavior and it will stop. This isn't always true with student coaches. In the last 9 years we have played many matches, and had only four different coaches. Our current coach is in his 4th season and has coached every match but one (I coached that one so he could watch from up high) in that time. He is good at the technical aspects of coaching, but his best attribute is his amazing ability to work with anyone.

As for the elite teams knowing what they are doing, I have found that this type of behavior often occurs when a great robot masks on the field strategy faults. But that is irrelevant. If a team needs you to change strategy, they should politely say "Hey, can you move over a little so we can pick up those balls? Thanks." It is not only more polite but more effective and leads to better cooperation and teamwork.

As a sports team coach as well as a robotics coach, I think that the biggest mistake people make in evaluating alliance partners is over-focusing on how well the robot works and not focusing enough on how well the team interacts with its teammates. We had a year when we were allied with 48, at their first regional of the year and they were without a fully functional robot. But they played the game so well, and complimented our strengths and weaknesses so well, that we won a match against the two best robots that we had no business winning. Their coach that year was calmly walking between all three teams suggesting actions that worked really well. As a coach, it was probably my most thrilling game ever. That feeling of everyone being on the same page, everything clicking. We absolutely would have picked them as alliance partners, but for the fact that one of those two top teams picked them first.

I think it is worthwhile to approach a team mentor after an incident like that and calmly, politely explain how their team's actions made your team feel. One year, after much reflection, I told another team's lead mentor that we did not pick them for an alliance partner because of the behavior of one of their mentors, who was their drive team coach. We respected the team, and I didn't want them thinking it was something we had against them. But this mentor was their coach and made our drive team very unhappy when we were paired with them during qualification. Enough that they decided they would rather play with someone else even if it meant decreasing our chance of victory. The head mentor thanked me for coming and talking to them.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

In other words, the team should turn the other cheek or, in this case, let their robot get rammed from the other side?

Jane

Re: Elitist Teams
 

After a blue alliance search I am extremely confident that I know what team you are talking about. All I can say that in all my experiences with this team I have never seen them do any of the things you described and that the people I've met on their team are very nice and always willing to explain their robot or talk pre-match strategy. In-match gameplay is very intense, they were almost certainly yelling to get your attention, not because they are mad at you or anything.

Also, you should always play to win your matches. To do anything less is a disservice to your alliance.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

Joe,

Thank you for bringing this to our attention. I am pretty sure the team in question is mine, since we played together this weekend in match 64 @ Northville.

I apologize for not being more open to discussion about strategy before the match. I typically try to let the other teams tell me what they'd like to do during the match and as long as it doesn't put the match at risk I try to be open to letting them show of what they can do.

In this case, I do not remember the discussions we had before the match...so I cannot comment on how open or un-open I was to your strategy suggestions.

In most cases, we have a pretty set strategy that we run during each match. After Hybrid, we try to grab the balls off the alliance bridge since they are an easy source of balls and clears them away from the bridge to help eliminate balls from jamming under the bridge when our partners are balancing. Again, since I don't specifically remember the discussions... I can't say if we discussed us performing that task or not.

I will apologize for my driver. As a drive team we tend to be very focused and aggressive on the task at hand when a match starts. This match was very important to us, since we had a chance to clinch the #1 seed. Not that it is a reason to be non-gracious or un-professional. We teach our drivers to do exactly what I say, when I say it....so if I told them to get the balls off the alliance bridge, thats what they were focused on. Since there was some confusion about who was going to the bridge...I am sure they were just frustrated they could not accomplish that task. I know that he was not trying to ram into you, it was just an accident. I remember him yelling for you to move and I believe I told scoled him to relax and stop yelling. What I didn't do and should have is come and apologize after the match.

We worked with your team multiple times this season (Waterford and Northville), both as Alliance partners and Cooperative partners. I have talked to your drivers many times discussing strategy and coop plans. I was under the impression that we worked together pretty well.

With regard to attempting to talk strategy to our people in the pits. They have no control over what happens on the field, so they usually direct teams to come find me. Since there is plenty of time during queuing to do all the strategy discussions, thats typically when I start talking to our partners.

I would strongly disagree with your statement that our pit is unapproachable. We have students available at all times to discuss our robot and mentors there to help them if there are questions they can't answer. Unless the robot is completely damaged and needs work, I have never seen anyone "blown off" if they needed help or had questions.

Our team agrees 100% with your statement about helping rookies and any other team that needs help. We had students and mentors all over the pits helping teams with whatever they needed. Since our team is large enough we can do both perform on the field and help others.

Are we "elitist", I don't believe so. Are we aggressive, focused, and driven? Yes! We believe we have a very good robot this year, capable of meeting our expectations for this year...if we continue to work hard and improve every single match.

Again, I apologize for not being open to your strategy suggestions and for our actions during the match. I will keep this in mind during furture strategy discussions with teams and will try to keep both mine and my driver's emotions in check during the match.

I wish you would have come talk to me yesterday after this incident. 470 was on our list of potential partners and we came very close to selecting you with the 24th pick.

Sorry,
Adam

Re: Elitist Teams
 

I've been in a match or two similar to your story. However, the teams we were with weren't elitist teams. They were average, like us at the time.

I'll cut to the chase. In the match, this team was the primary scorer. They were really good at putting up tubes, though they weren't a top-tier team. Our other alliance member was supposed to play defense, and we were told to herd tubes over, which worked for us, since our arm was broken.

Anywho, as soon as autonomous ended, we started herding tubes over, the scoring team was scoring, and the defensive bot was getting in other team's ways, like it was told to. Around the last 50 seconds or so of the match, the scoring team started yelling at us saying "256! get out of our way!". And while we were close to them, we weren't anywhere near their path, so we backed away a little. Then, their coach yelled at us asking why we were messing around. The drivers kept yelling at us. Then, at the 15 second mark, the scoring team went for the minibot poles. Our defensive robot was on one, and we were on the other. The scoring robot went over to the defensive robot, pushed it out of the way, almost to a tipping point, and deployed its own minibot....3 seconds before the timer was at 10 seconds (deploying time).

So what happened here? Let's see:
-When the scoring team was yelling at us to get out of the way, it was really the defensive team they were looking at, who was preventing the opponents from getting a tube, and the scoring team wanted to go where the pushing match was. Their coach, not hearing them, sees us trying to back away for some reason, and yells at us for goofing off.

-As for the minibot poles, it was agreed early on since the scoring team wasn't sure their minibot would deploy that the defensive bot and us would deploy our minibots. For some reason, they change their mind during the endgame, believing their minibot was faster than the defensive bots (ours was the slowest, yet they didn't go for us :confused: ), and instead of sticking to the plan they made up, decided the defensive robot didn't need to deploy, and pushed them out of the way, only to deploy early and make the tower not count.

We lost the match, and of course, the first thing the scoring team did was blame us, and the defensive team, for not following directions.

IMO, there were two big factors playing into this mess:
1. The team wasn't very GP. This is partially it, since they were kinda mean, but the biggest reason is #2.
2. No communication between the teams. The scoring team told us both that we shouldn't talk mid-match, since it would make us (them) loose our (their) focus. So not only did we as teams not talk, but apparently their coach didn't listen to them as well. That just messed up the whole match right there. Furthermore, from what I saw, their driver and operator didn't know what each other was doing. I could hear them arguing amongst themselves, saying "I thought you were going to do this" and "Why would I do that", and many other things that obviously showed they weren't prepared. Even worse, their coach didn't know the rules of the game, and told us to steal tubes from the opponent's lane. :|


In the end, we all get matches with teams we think are being elitist, but sometimes it's a little more than that, and you have to look it over to see what the problem really is. They may have a reason for doing what they did. Talk to them. It's almost always a misunderstanding of some sort.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

I certainly don't want to pile on the OP...but I don't think this quote can be stressed enough. Let's talk to each other in person, at the event (wait some time after a match for people to calm down if you want) instead of waiting to come on here and posting it...

I promise you that a calm approach to the mentors of the team you are upset about will yield a much better experience and outcome.

We are all in this because we care... I don't think there are any bad or mean people in FIRST. I'm sure 99.75% of the time it's really a misunderstanding...

Re: Elitist Teams
 

The saddest thing about this incident is that I knew exactly which competition this was, I was there, and I knew exactly which team you were referring to without checking the match schedule or reading what Adam Freeman had to say. I haven't been in an alliance station driving with them, but from seeing them around the stands and elsewhere at competitions (both of ours this year), they have come off as slightly above everyone else. I can't speak to the merit of the individuals on the team in a vacuum, but as a whole I was less than thrilled. I have little doubt that the people themselves are are class individuals.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

Don, why would 470 feel inclined to try to approach the team after being snubbed and ignored when they approached them before the match? The ball was in Adam's court, not the other way around.

Jane

Re: Elitist Teams
 

How would Adam know that the other team felt "snubbed and ignored" when they followed a SOP (that doesn't sound offensive to me at all) that has apparently served them well for a long while?

(insert reasonbly astute observer joke here)

Re: Elitist Teams
 

I'm pretty sure that if a team rams a robot intentionally, the apology and explanation should come from the team that does the ramming.

Jane

Re: Elitist Teams
 

Yes, in an ideal world, the OP would have gone back to the pits, talked with the team, and everything would have been cleared up. On the other hand, if your perception is that you've already been dismissed by said teams in their pits, and pre-match in queue, why would you want to go a third round at talking to a team that apparently has no interest in talking to you?

So while you're right that this was likely a misunderstanding, I don't think the OP is at fault for not wanting to wade further into what he perceived as a bad situation. Fact of the matter is, if your team is coming off like that to someone, then your team probably needs to work a bit on its public relations. Which is going to necessarily involve feedback like this from other teams, since you can't judge the public's perception of your organization from inside your organization. So if you want other teams to see you as inclusive and willing to work with them, then you should see criticism like this as an opportunity for improvement.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

I apologize that I must have skimmed over the word "ram", but the verbs "snubbed and ignored" to me sounded like they were referring to the verbal communication pre-match.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

Jane, Yes I agree 100%...although I did not think of it as an issue at the time. In retrospect, I should have been more proactive to ensure the issue was cleared up.

Just to put some additional details out there, we needed 4pts to wrap up the #1 seed. We had a mishap on the Coopertition bridge, where we somehow got team 3536 onto the bridge while not straight, so when we started driving up behind them they got one wheel shoved over the edge. We were unable to do our traditional process of Coop balancing so we tried to different method and failed....ending up with 3536 flipped over.

After the match, I was discussing the details of the coop balance with my driver and other mentors so we could be prepared for that issue in the future. My attention was not on the previous issue with 470.

I honestly didn't know it was an issue...or I would have found 470 and apologized to them.

I have sent an email to all of the HOT Team to review the comments in this thread and strive to not come off as "elitist" and display gracious professionalism at all times.

We have much to improve on both on and off the field.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

Am I the only person who feels that this would have made a better private e-mail than forum thread?

Re: Elitist Teams
 

I've been telling people for a few weeks now, since the incidents at Toronto, that I was glad to be in Michigan. Glad because I thought we were above all this. I thought that we were all competing together trying to better each other, avoiding petty conflict.

Now I see that I was wrong. Threads like this make me sad. Why try to call someone else out on a public forum? That is what isn't GP. You may think you were being anonymous and concealing the team's identity, but it took me about 30 seconds to guess which team it was and then look up matches to confirm it. That's what isn't GP, trying to garner sympathy for yourself while also tearing another team down.

I'm not saying their actions were entirely acceptable, if that's really what happened, I feel you may be exaggerating a little, but that's neither here nor there. But I will say this, their actions were no different from tons of other drive teams/coaches that I see all the time. I've refereed four events this year (including Northville) and there are a lot of teams that are WAY less GP than the team in question. I see coaches yelling and screaming and running over to yell at other people all the time. And this is good teams, bad teams, average teams, simply put everyone.

If this is HOT, which I will not say for certain because the OP hasn't confirmed this, I can tell you this. They are some of the best people to work with in all of FIRST. I have several very good friends on the team, and as a whole we have always worked very well with them. Are they focused on winning? Yes. Does that make them not GP? No. As long as they don't gloat or belittle others with their success. Which I have never seen them do.

Just my opinion on this issue.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

You're right. If a team feels slighted and hurt by a veteran team, it's much much better for them to suck it up and pretend nothing happened. Much better to let the other team continue to believe they have an untarnished image in public than to bring up uncomfortable concerns with their public image. If it's HOT, well they think they're supportive and inclusive of other teams, so clearly 470 is wrong in feeling hurt and snubbed here. Because that's not what HOT intended.

Sorry, but I don't think that's the correct approach here. I think Adam's post above is highly laudable and correct in accepting the criticism and looking to improve from it. This doesn't mean Adam thinks his team is universally evil and horrible. It simply means he's recognizing that someone had a negative interaction with his team, and he want to address the issue to reduce such interactions in the future. THAT is the kind of GP response I'd expect from a team of HOT's caliber. Not shrugging the issue off and lamenting that someone had the gall to bring it up in a public forum. Huge kudos to HOT for looking to improve their team at all times like this.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

I've had few interactions with HOT, but they were a class act every time. The response to this thread is no exception.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

Maybe, but personally, I think the conduct and posts HOT made are pretty inspiring, so I'm glad this thread was public.

There are two ways to deal with criticism - get defensive and ignore it, or listen and try and figure out why the critic is saying what they are and work to improve from it. The latter is generally much more healthy, even if you don't agree with what they are literally saying, or see things differently.

That a team like HOT listens to a post indirectly calling them out for perceived actions, then provides their side of the story while being apologetic and understanding is the definition of a class act to me.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

Anyone who knows Adam knows he is a class act, on and off the FRC playing field. I have had the pleasure in coaching with him, against him, and hanging out after events. He is an inspiration to both students and mentors alike. He posts on this forum in response to the criticism are spot on and appropriate.

Unfortunately, incidents like the one the OP mentioned will happen and the more we communicate about it, the less misunderstanding we will have.

I am glad the OP brought this up so everyone could see what many of us in Michigan already see: Adam Freeman is a class act that we can all learn from.

Paul

Re: Elitist Teams
 

As a driver last year in our team's first ever Championship appearance, I was extremely surprised at how many teams were "elitist". As a small team without a lot of funding, we only go to the Utah regional each year, admittedly one of the smaller regionals without a lot of "superpower" teams. Last year we did fairly well and made it to the semifinals, losing to the winning alliance, and qualified to Championships through the Regional Chairman's Award. Though everyone was highly competitive, even the top teams were easy to work with/against and we all had a lot of fun. At Curie field, however, there were numerous occasions where we were simply told what to do without anyone allowing our input on strategy. Another problem was that as a student, our field coach was frequently pushed aside in strategy discussions by mentor coaches. I'm sure that no one actively tries to do this, but at some point younger or weaker teams get the impression that the top teams are the elite and the rest of us are simply annoyances that must be dealt with in quals.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

As a former driver and as a coach on two different teams, I don't think this is ungracious to yell. Most drivers get a form of tunnel vision and neglect the rest of the field; actually this is what I tell my drivers to do. Their only focus is our robot and what ever their task is. I take care of the score and strategy changes on the fly. Yes, sometimes this means yelling. However, with teams crowding behind the driver station to cheer and the music and everything else, it gets rather loud on the field. The only way to communicate is to yell. To get a better perspective on the field or an issue, yes I move back and forth between teams and open areas. In my opinion, a good coach has to keep up with their alliance members. You never know when something will break or some other failure. Yes, through scouting we usually have a good understanding of what we 'believe' the other alliance is going to do. However, we are wrong at times; and have to adjust on the fly.

I have a checklist of things to check at different time intervals and make changes depending on those outcomes. Yes I yell! I try not to yell at students other those on my own team. For any other changes, I try to tell their coach. This is for two reasons: 1) I tell my drivers/human player not to listen to anyone other than me. 2) Their coach should know the best way to get their point across.

I give my drive team the same speech before every Regional. The main points are: what happens is going to happen, so you might as well have fun doing it; and I am going to yell, but not because I am mad. I am yelling because I was once a driver and know how tunnel vision works and how loud it gets.

I always end with something positive to our alliance as the alliance is leaving the driver station. If the robot is damaged/broke I always try and offer our assistance to get them back up and running. If I feel like I did upset someone I try and talk to them while be accompanied with their coach/or another mentor.

So I have to say screaming and pacing back and forth is part of the game.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

I can't speak to the specific issue the OP brings up, but want to share an incident that we had in a previous season. I standing off to the side off the pits, involved in a very sensitive personel issue, when a member of a drive team member walked up to me to discuss an upcoming match. He walked into the circle of mentors involved in a discussion that was not appropriate for public consumption. I asked if we could have this discussion in a little while, and that I would head over to their pits for a discussion later. He continued to stand there, until I said, "I'm sorry, but this is a private discussion, and I need you to give us some privacy." He stormed off, and began to tell everyone at the competition that our team was headed up by a bunch of ******. My point is, a single data point does not a trend make. There may be times when a team appears to act "snobbish" or whatever to someone outside of the team, when there maybe some issue that is going on that others are not aware of. The "elite" teams are under the microscope during the whole competition, and those issues may look more magnified than if it occurred by another team. I would encourage teams who expect others act with Gracious Professionalism, that perhaps they may need to show some Grace as well.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

As a drive coach, and someone who can get very emotionally-charged in matches and in the pit at both ends of the spectrum, I go out of my way to moderate myself with other teams. At Virginia, we were allied with a team that was just as good as ours, and ended up losing to us in the quarters, and a team that, bless them, was a brave little toaster.

The coach of the good team was very frustrated with the BLTs, and I knew I was at their late arrival to the competition and their lack of good communication skills, but I didn't let it get to me. If I get frustrated at that team, it's reflecting poorly on a lot more people than myself. I know my drivers looked at the non-BLT team differently for the rest of the day after watching their coach get visibly frustrated.

This year, more than ever, teams need to communicate if they want a snowball's chance in hell of winning all of their matches. Our drivers met with both our teams and our opposing alliance in the pits for every match possible (except for the times FMS had us getting in queue 1 match after we got out...) Personally witnessing great robots lose more than they should have in VA, strategy is key, even if you are playing with the bottom teams in the rankings.

I may be a senior in high school, but I'm the drive coach because the mentors know I'm not going to let other teams give my guys any crap. We all butt our robots together in the same key in the same bumper colors and stand next to each other. We are, for 135 seconds, a team. I don't care if your robot could eat ours for breakfast, or vice-versa. The 12 of us and our 3 robots should be focusing on beating the team on the other side of the glass. This isn't your party, it's everyone's party.

Primary and Secondary drivers live in their own world, as they should. They use some weird in-game telepathy to accomplish what the alliance needs. As a coach, I will be darting up and down the coaches' zone behind the driver boxes to shake other coaches and YELL, yes yell, at them. It gets loud on the field, people. I need your attention to relay vital information. It's not about me, it's about us. Drive coaches are ambassadors to the other teams on the alliance; it's our job to relay information between the coaches to our drivers. I play nice, but I also play to win. Our team believes that the pursuit of winning is the greatest inspiration. I won't judge you for your team's mission if you don't dog on ours.

On another note, I have gone out of my way to not make brash, wild assumptions of an organization of dozens of talented, well-meaning individuals based on one experience. It has yet to disappoint me, at least in the realm of FRC. Even so, keep this in mind: my mentors say that that we aren't tested until we are down for the count on the field, but we are tested, fairly or not, on every square foot of the venue over the weekend. Try to keep that thought stuck on the filter between your brain and your mouth.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

I tell this to everyone I can: the majority of contention and anger come as a result of a mismatch of expectations at a given situation. I mean this for all of life - not just FIRST. For example, if person A expects person B to do something at 4 p.m. and person B expects they're supposed to do it at 4:30. Person A finally gets angry at 4:15 since person isn't doing what they're supposed to do, so A does B's job and gets angry. Then person B gets angry at person A for not allowing them to do what they were supposed to do. They both walk away upset with each other.

My point is that some teams expect certain things (like strategy discussions, how to handle mid-match strategy / interaction changes, etc.) to be done one way, while other teams expect it a different way. If two teams' expectations match, everything is great. If they each have their own way of how they think it's supposed to be handled, then the other team is (insert your negative statement here).

Here are some of my expectations that I have built up over my years of doing FIRST:

- If a team is vying for a top spot in the rankings, they control the strategy discussion during qualification matches. Let them know what makes your robot tick, and what makes it awful (in other words, what make you perform your best, and what really screws you up), but expect the top team to have a plan to give themselves the best chance to keep their top ranking. (We always defer strategy to other teams in this situation, because that's what we expect.)
- Yelling during a match is going to happen. Things are very loud and time is tight. Economy of words is a must. Don't take insult from a yelled, short statement.
- Coaches are going to talk (yell, really - but not in a negative way) at each other during a match. It shouldn't be unexpected for one coach to run to another team's coach and yell "get to the bridge! we need you at the bridge now!!" As I said, strategy changes are going to happen.
- Teams have a lot to do at the event, and not a lot of time to do it. If a team says, "we don't have time right now - let me know where I can meet you", it's not because they're jerks. I'm sure your team has been strapped for time at one point or another as well.
- Some teams like to talk strategy really early. Some teams wait until the queue. Try not to be angry if a team does it differently than what you do.
- Don't bother a team while their robot is on the field (or immediately afterward) unless it's REALLY important.

There are many more, but I can't think right now.


I'm sure many people read this and think what a jerk I am. Probably because they have different expectations than me.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

I think Adam has addressed this issue in a very thoughtful and fair manner. I'll echo the statements made by others about Team 67. They're behavior on and off the field has always been impeccable during the interactions I've had with them. Their students in the pit are always open to answer questions or even have random conversations.

As for a robot "ramming" its partner, in this year's game unintentional ramming between partners is going to happen often. There are 4 spots on each side of the playing field that are high traffic zones, and they're all within a tight proximity of each other. I've lost track of the number of times we've been rammed by our partners while setting up our shots in the key. Mildly frustrating, yes. Intentional? Absolutely not. It's just a case of two robots trying to get to two separate destinations, with paths that intersect. With robots moving as fast as they do nowadays, these types of collisions are unavoidable.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

I wonder if these so called "Elite" teams know how they are perceived by every student and mentor in FIRST. And I mean EVERY student and mentor. I'm not going to type here and say that everyone's own opinion on a team they have seen 'talked about' is invalid; I think it's at least arguable to say it is insufficient.

Work with me for a bit - 174, the team I mentor, is having the best statistical year ever so far. And if you go back in our history, you could say we are reaching "High Tier" status. Not in any way reaching the Elite Tier of 1114 or 148 or 217 or 67 (to use examples), but I hope to think that our number and team is getting out there. Then I ask myself - what do I mean by 174 being "out there" in the FIRST public view. How are we perceived I wonder to myself. Are we the annoying team, the high caliber team? Do teams fear to face us, or call us overrated? And while I can go to each of my buddies from other teams and ask, getting mixed results most likely; unless I asked every student in FIRST how 174 stacks up, I'll never actually know if we are an approachable team, a kind team, a GP team or the best team.

I love 340. They are the biggest name in Rochester, and one of those teams I root for. 340 is one of those teams that I just became inspired by and I talk about 340 with a bunch of 174 students. But then one or two students in 174 can't stand me talking about 340 because they think 340 is just too good, too win-more, too celebrity. The question is this a fault of mine as as a leader to inspire a student, the fault of the student's false perceptions and misgivings, or the fault of 340's outward personality to a specific student. I can't tell.

I think this is the FIRST issue of the year - that some are overlooking opinions and perceptions because their own are just too strong to let go of. I get the feeling that the feeling of being inspired by these Elite Tier teams is becoming more of a personal event by fewer and fewer students and mentors as years go on, and replacing that lack of inspiration is a flow of resentment and bad blood (for lack of a better term.)

Re: Elitist Teams
 

To see an uncomfortable situation, become a lesson to learn for those that are reading this is great.

From hearing Adam address the situation, he isnt blaming the other team, nor directly saying its entirely their fault. Its just a miscommunication on both parties. He accepts responsibility for his team in terms of making sure they address it and handling it in a professional way.
I agree with others that Adam and HOT are approachable, and outright down to earth.

As for Chris, I think he is right on!
Its not demeaning in any way for yelling to occur. Teams are passionate about themselves, their alliance, and how they specifically want to contribute. In a game where the music is loud, the crowd is cheering and the drive teams are excited, emotions play a huge part and so is yelling, without being a jerk.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

I have only been involved in FIRST since 2009 I see this program as a great learning experience for the students. Thing like this as unpleasant as they are at the time, are good lessons for the students. Especially when someone like Adam steps up like he did to address the situation. In my short time in FIRST I have overheard things from adults in team shirts, that I do not feel represent the views of most people directly involved with FIRST. The few interactions I have had with HOT, I have come away impressed with them as a team. They have always been willing to not only show what they have done but explain how it works.
I think this will turn out to be a bad situation with a good lesson for all involved

Re: Elitist Teams
 

I can tell your for a fact everyone of the mentors and students on "those big elitist powerhouse teams" know exactly how "all" the other teams view them.

What I would ask you, is do you know how at least a few of the other teams view them? Most of these teams are RCA or Hall of Fame teams. They didn't earn those for nothing nor over night, more than a few teams are aware of that fact.

Every year our mentors and students are a under a microscope and bad behavior is remembered a very long time, by FIRST, while good behavior is somehow easier to forget when it comes to those powerhouses. None of us are perfect and during a stressful weekend, its not hard to catch people at a bad moment. That is not an excuse, but it is a matter of fact, think how many students/parents/mentors/ect go to their pits the chances that one of a couple hundred catches the wrong person at the wrong time is pretty good. However I agree that in many cases writing the team an email first is good first move over just going to CD

Re: Elitist Teams
 

Before competition this year I told the students on my team that when they go to competition they may meet teams that are very driven, and sometimes that drive can come off as rude. You will see this in any competition you go to. It's good to be the better person and the one thing I make sure they hear is that No one person is better than you and vise versa.

I think this kind of thing really stems out of simple jealousy. I really feel that some teams "don't like" other teams because they do so well. In all honesty, when I was a student I was very jealous of some other teams simply because they do so well. When I met one of these teams the weekend of ship this year. I was blown away at how nice, welcoming, and helpful they were. I was expecting them to be rude and very isolated. The one thing I hadn't done was actually meet them and get to know them.

So if you feel that a team isn't nice, really just get to know them! Plus like Mc Kenna said Competition can be very stressful and we all have some random tendency to catch people in bad moments and we only remember those moments, not the good ones where they help us...

Re: Elitist Teams
 

I posted this on CD for a reason, yea I was frustrated with the team in question, but this was not meant to tarnish their image, If it was I wouldn't be here taking responsibility for my words.

I posted because I want to address the issue overall. As shown by the replies, this isn't an isolated incident. Adam showed how awesome he is with his apology and I really don't like to hold grudges, so I hope we can continue a successful relationship in the future, but this is just one experience. What about all the rest that get swept under the carpet?

At the end of the day we both got what we wanted. HOT won the comp, and we won the judges award, but their is still a goal yet to be obtained, and that is spreading the knowledge of how to handle these situations, and helping big name teams become more aware of how they come off to other teams.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

I don't know how many teams do it, but since last year, we have had a student act as an image consultant alongside some mentors. We want to project a positive image to teams during competition, so we use this student to police others on FIRST values throughout any event we participate in.

This is a direct result of things that are discussed to death on these boards: mentor-built hate speech, casting a dark shadow on an entire team over one heated comment, how to handle teams of varying calibers, how to not scare away potential alliance partners, and the like.

It's something I've been running out of the PR branch like how the build team runs safety out of their branch. Make inter-team activity during those 3 days as strong as the intra-team activity you have built up over at least 45 days. Make being friendly, considerate, aware, and open a priority like you do safety (Though safety clearly takes precedence. People who are bleeding due to unsafe actions probably won't be very friendly at all)

Sure, people can get a little testy and you have to be standing gingerly on your toes when the competition environment is breaking your back. That's just real-life lesson #64,350 you learn in FRC.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

I would just like to add my opinion of HoT team and this whole discussion.

Sometimes it takes an adult to say to kids that are upset with "elitist teams" -- Have you considered the amount of work they do? Do you think they put in as much if not more time than you do? Do you think they care about their robot, their community, their schools? Do you think they care about FIRST, etc.
I think we are all here for the same reason. I think we all work hard, students, adults, volunteers... I think we need to stop and think about what this discussion does to our unity.

HoT - You, along with many other teams, have been an inspiration to my team. You have helped us grow and have given us a high bar to reach. We strive to be at the level of these amazing teams. I know students and mentors on HoT and I can tell you they would bend over backwards to help any team that asked (and many that don't ask). Maybe we ought to stop calling these people "elitists" as the name itself is a putdown. I really think we need to strive to be better by being better and not tearing down those that are setting strong solid examples.

I love FIRST, and I've been on all sides of it at many levels. Let's encourage our teams to strive to be better, and respect those that may be better. Let's try to look for the positives and congratulate their hard work. In-fighting and resentment only tear programs down! Let's keep FIRST unified and strong! :)

Re: Elitist Teams
 

I have been coaching FRC for 15 years, which probably equates to 1000 or more matches. There have occasionally been incidents our team has been involved in where alliance members are upset by words or actions which occurred during the match. We have been on both the giving and receiving end of this. If I look back, I can put all of these situations into 4 catagories:

1. All members of the alliance did not discuss and understand the strategy for the match before it began.

2. One or more of the alliance members made a major deviation from the previously agreed upon strategy.

3. The agreed upon strategy was weak, and once the match began the strategy had to be changed mid-match to try to salvage the match.

4. One of the robots died, flipped, or otherwise proved incapable of fulfilling its role, and the strategy had to be changed mid-match to try to salvage the match.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The first two scenarios are very avoidable if everyone just talks to each other and is honest about what they can do (and cannot do). This discussion must always involve all the drivers, human players and coaches. Always make sure this is done. Many teams do not actively ensure this is done, but the best teams always do.

The second two situations are much more difficult. These always involve split second decisions and there is no time for discussion or negotiation. Some amount of yelling in inevitiable when this happens, if for no other reason that to make sure that instructions are heard over the music. (Remember that we coaches are always talking to the backs of the drivers' heads). Veteran coaches will always try to take immediate action in these cases.

If you are in this for the long haul, you need to have a thick skin. I have personally been yelled at, lied to, and insulted many times over the years. I have also been accused of being overly aggressive and insulting to others at times. While all these incidents are regrettable, many are the result of simple misunderstandings and difference in personality types. Communication is the key. I hold no grudges and I hope no one else does either. Everyone in the FRC is deserving of respect.

One thing I have observed over the years is that veteran coaches of successful teams always have a very commanding approach to strategy discussions. This comes from experience. After you have done this several hundred times, you can pretty much see the obvious strategy for almost every match. Good teams have solid scouting data, so we usually know exactly what to expect from both our partners and our opponents. As such, some experienced coaches just simply tell the other two members what the plan is, making it more of a directive than a negotiation. Some may consider this to be arrogance or elitisim, but in reality it is just simple efficiency: When there is really only one solution, why bother discussing other options? When time is short, this is likely to occur....if it is mid-match, it is almost certain. The reason the 'Elite' teams are where they are is because they understand how to succeed at this sport. Trust their judgement when they tell you what to do, even if it is as blunt as "Get out of the way!".

If you disagree with any strategy you are presented with, always speak up and voice your concerns, providing there is time to do so. For me the absolute worst thing in the competition experience is when a team agrees to the strategy (or doesn't disagree) and then does something else once the match begins. Failures of the machine or drivers are excusable, but deliberate deception is not.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

I can't agree more. This is word of wisdom. It is the kind of unwritten rules that everybody needs to know. Even in qualifying rounds, the strongest team that is ranked the highest should be the one who control the strategy. They should certainly listen to the other two teams' ideas but they should be in charge because the they have more at stake than the other teams.

I have had bad experience with teams with adult mentors that think that they know everything and started telling everyone what to do when their robot is not even ranked above average. We have very detail scouting data about every team so we know what to expect and what strategy to use to increase our chance of winning a match. Some teams only care about showing off what their robot's strengths are and not cooperate to win. There is nothing wrong with trying to win on the field as long as there is no cheating and lying. FIRST never said winning is not important. It is afterall called FIRST Robotics Competition and FIRST is trying to model after sports to appeal to a wider audience. It is not called FIRST Robotics Exhibition or FIRST Robotics Fair. What is important is we cooperate and help each other get better off the field to beyond what is normally just good sportsmanship, but we compete fiercely on the field, using the best strategy as an alliance to win.

We also had bad experience with alliance partners who blamed us for not scoring more when we were scoring most of the points and they were hardly scoring and sometimes even got in our way and slowed us down. For these type of teams, we have a special place for them in our alliance selection list.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

I'm really glad you brought this up. This is by and far the WORST year for gracious professionalism by several teams. Too many years in first? Maybe. We've been at it for 8 years now. We ran into the same thing at one of the regionals this year. One of the lower numbered teams came to us and said "this is what you are going to do." I don't know about you, but as a mentor I spent time undoing what this does to a drive team when drivers from another team come over and TELL YOU what your team is going to do in a match. This is as bad as a team that purely lies that they can do something and then can't in the match.

Shall I go on? How about the team that completely took over one part of the stands that our team had saved for the mentors and pit crew to come up in the stands to watch the matchs? Some of these parents are so rude that we ended up GRACIOUSLY giving up ALL of our seats to this team. Not one word of thanks, although they continued to talk about us as we went upstairs to film. Yeah snotty mom, we could hear you bad mouthing us. We were standing directly above you and could hear everything!

How about more. The next regional we went to, we had one team sitting in front of us and we were against them during this round. I knew that they would be excited and jumping up and down, so I went up stairs to the "media" table to film and one of the teams who were not only taking up the whole top row, but decided that they 'owned' the media table at the top of the stands for their scouting. When I asked if I could use the corner of the table ( for you geeks my mono pod base is 3/4" diameter) to put my mono pod on to film I get this attittude, "we need this area to scout. I am talking to these people, ( he points to the people in the top row)". Wow that was gracious. I was going to use the media area... for media. I graciously just moved somewhere else.

Let's continue. OK so the refs tell us that we have to fix our broken bumpers after we lost a wheel during competition and broke one of the bumpers trying to go over the hump with a lost wheel. We have a flurry of activity and we HAD to do some work across from our pits on the bumpers. Did it occur to the people on one of the teams that drove over my already broken toe with their robot to say I'm sorry when the saw me writhing in pain in the floor, nope. All I got from the last team member was, " you shouldn't have been in the isle". BTW this is the same team that pushed us out of stands at the other regional.

Frankly this type of stuff should cause a few of these teams to be immediately disqualified, period. NO discussion, pack up your crap and leave. Loose your qualifiying points, ban them from further competition for the year. Once a few of these teams get banned from a regional I think they will learn that gracious professionalism is part of First. If you can't handle it, First is going to penalize you.

Is this really the level that first has deteriorated too? I know some of us are really getting tired of this attitude and something needs to be done to address it in the PITS. Not tomorrow, not after some discussion on the off season, but right now, and at the next regional or state competition. Wake up First your plan is falling apart and being tarnished by these teams.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

This.....this....

Re: Elitist Teams
 

Joe,

No offense taken. I will be honest the first time I read your OP, I was upset that you were imbellishing the issue. But, it took only a few minutes of thinking back on the issue to realize that we actually do a lot of the things you stated. And, most of it comes from me not communicating enough with my alliance partners. After that, I quickly decided that this was an excellent opportunity for learning for everyone.

I think both Chris and Ed have touched on an excellent topic....Qualification Alliance Strategy Meeting Etiquette. Who controls the strategy meeting? How do you approach teams with your strategy ideas? What happens when there are conflicting strategies?

I have been coaching HOT full time since 2009, and I can only remember 1 or 2 times where strategy discussions got really heated and I had to pull out the scouting data and say..."listen, you are not capable of doing what you are proposing". Other than that I like to think I stay open to teams being able to both complete the tasks we ask them to do and show off the skills of their machine. At least, I think that is the case, maybe not....

Maybe that should be a topic for a new thread. Anyway, just like Paul stated above....99% of these issues with high performing teams stem from miscommunication. The more we continue to talk to each other the better our FIRST community will be.

Thank you Joe for elevating this issue to all our attention.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

I admittedly haven't been to a competition since 2010 but some of this stuff is ridiculous.

First, I don't know what regional or districts you compete at but I have never been to a competition that had extra seats in good locations to watch matches and have never been to one that did not clearly state that there is no saving of seats. I have been on the pit crew for many different teams at many different events and have often got to thae stands expecting to sit with my team only to find those seats taken. It isn't fun but there is no reserved seating so you just have to deal with it, find a seat (usually you can find a good one recently vacated by another teams pit crew), enjoy the match then back to work. As for the rude mother, their ar rude people every where, and every one with a team represents the team, that said I always urge people not to judge a team based on the family in the stands.

As for the second occurance. I agree, a simple I'm sorry would have been nice. That said you really should never be working in an area where there is robot traffic. The rules say all work should take place in your pit but I know that isn't always possible. When you need more space it is you're responsibility to ensure that you are out of the way of every one else. Again I don't know what regional you were at, and I definitely wasn't there but you really should have found an empty space, depending on your regional there are usually areas near the mobile machine shop (if available), near the practice field, or in the areas of the stands that cannot see the field (in stadium/arena venues).

I understand your frustration, regionals are stressful and running into rude people really can set you off, often against their whole team. That said in both your complaints against this team you were directly violating FIRST rules/guidelines (saving seats and working outside your pit) I know that both these things are common practice and I belive you guys were not doing it to hurt anyone else but if you want to make the other teams pack up their crap and leave and ban them from further competition you should probably take a close look at what your team is or isn't doing that is against the rules.

This sucks, I know, I have bounced through quite a few high numbered teams, and it is not unheard of or even uncommon for a team to tell a team that is in their opinion less competitive what to do. However I have neve been in a situation where the other coach wouldn't atleast discuss. Two examples both while I was working with 3280 (I'll even give team numbers) 157 at WPI in 2010 the coach told me the strategy, justified using it because he "had more experience than our entire drive team" (he didn't) long story short, I convinced him we could win with defense while still allowing a lot of scoring. He finally gave in, we won, he apologized, we ended up picking them for eliminations and teamed up at another regional as well as two off seasons. The other was with 69, they told us their plan, they just wanted us to stay in the first zone and clean up balls, but not hang. Our mechanism was broken at WPI, the last they saw it, however we were confident we had fixed it and felt it was important for us to demonstrate it, they gave in, we hung, the next day they picked us first overall in alliance selections.

Some times the big teams will pusk you around a little but you need to see it from their perspective. I can;t tell you how many times in FRC and FTC I have been on a high seeded team and had another team explain their strategy or promise they could do something only to have it come out that they couldn't. If I am in a competitive position and you aren't than I fully expect to be allowed to make my own decisions.

The best example of this was at Championships in 2010, we were a very good first zone bot and hanger, we were seeded high from the beginning and in all strategy discussions said we would be the front bot, even if there was some one else who wanted to do it. If we knew we were best then we were doing it. We gave in only once and ended up having to climb the bumps to get to the front zone and clean up after the other team to win. In our experience the teams who gave us the least grief about being the first bot were the vetrans as they always came with the same analysis of how we play best. By the time we got to the end of the season we ended up picking 359 and 71 (two teams I would consider elite) in our division and they were both very receptive to our strategy ideas.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

I'm a little late in reading this thread, but I would like to make a couple of comments.

inspiring, Recognizing, Changing the culture, Gracious Professionalism, cooperation: All phrases in the FIRST mantra.

FIRST is not an efficient program to TEACH skills or engineering or math knowledge. I don’t know anyone who gets college credit for FIRST participation or is allowed to skip Engineering 101 or Calculus 101. FIRST is about students working with positive adults who may (or may not) have engineering backgrounds, and as a result, more students realistically appreciate and perhaps enter a STEM field. That is the strength of FIRST. FIRST is uniquely effective in creating potential technological leaders who are persistant, ethical, competent, and positive role models. Mentors have a far grater responsibility then teacing tech skills.

The FIRST values are emphasized with FIRST’s highest award, the Chairman’s Award. The robot building and competing is just an activity to learn, appreciate and demonstrate the goals and values of FIRST. Being elite has little to do with winning the elimination rounds. Rather the character of the team. We all know fantastic teams who are very active in FIRST and have never won a regional competition. They are "changing the culture" and are the teams to emulate.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

Parents who stick with FIRST teams are an odd problem. They obviously care about their kid and the team they are associated with but more opften than not do not care one bit about other teams. I do not think they realize the damage they cause the team's reputation with their territorial behavior but it's awkward to tell guest how to behave at an event when they are there for support and have not been around the team all season to understand how FIRST works. Maybe the team could make shirts for people who support the team without actually coming across as a member of the team so they cannot affect the team's public perception because it does matter.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

I completely agree and I would add that modeling gracious behavior in a highly competitive environment is an important characteristic of a coach. No one is perfect; however, it has been my experience that the coaches from teams which are consistently highly competitive on the field have also consistently modeled gracious behavior.

I recall my first year coaching in 2005 at the Boilermaker Regional. We had the opportunity to be paired with a couple of the consistently successful teams. Our team leader advised me to ask those coaches what they needed us to do and to be honest about our capabilities. Without exception, their response was what can you do? They also communicated any particular needs or constraints which they had.

As has been stated already, communication is what is important – and I would qualify that as active listening. It goes both ways.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

As a first time driver, I would just like to talk a little bit about my experiences at Midwest playing with powerhouse teams.

Our 2nd match of the day was with 148 Robowranglers. I'm glad we ended up playing with them as early as we did because our drive team learned a ton about strategy, and how to plan out a match. Their coach was extremely approachable, and was a pleasure to work with. He knew a bit about each team, and what they had done in their previous matches, making strategy planning a breeze (they must have a great scouting team). Everybody stuck to the plan, everybody contributed to the match, and we ended up winning handily. I would love to see them return to Midwest next year.

The same goes for pretty much every other team we worked with over the weekend (including 16 Bomb Squad, and 2949 Pwnage).

But long story short, you can't label all powerhouse teams as 'elitist'. This certainly isn't true for most teams.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

I'd like to take a moment to thank everyone who has posted in this thread and helped to peel back the layers of what happens with coaches and drive teams and what some of the reasons are behind their thinking and decisions.

Realizing that many of the coaches of these teams are engineering types and don't always find that balance needed (see what I did there? :) ) in good communication, I especially appreciate the fact that many of you are taking the time to peel those layers back for the CD community. I think Adam set the tone for this to happen.

Jane

Re: Elitist Teams
 

This has been a great thread and I have posted it on our teams Facebook page for our team members to read.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

I've been at this for a while now. I started my FIRST "career" back in '97 -'98 as the lead mentor and coach of Team 64 - The Gila Monsters. I've been at many competitions pitted next to teams 68 - Truck Town Thunder, 67 - The HOT Team, 66 - The Flyers (although I don't remember them going by that name back them - I recall them having a Route 66 theme), and 65 - The Huskie Brigade and knew them all well.

Upon reading this thread I first though that Joel had (1) hit on a great topic and (2) plenty of guts to bring it up for discussion. After noticing he was from Ypsilanti, (I hate to admit it) but my initial thought was "it was the HOT Team" without any further inquiry. I admit I was initially a little biased but as it turned out, after the post by Adam (my compliments to you for your response) , I was correct.

The HOT Team is a great team and have been for a long time. They have the history to back up my assertion. Their accomplishments are impressive and I applaud their record. However, they also (and always have) acted as if they knew it. This is not a new impression for anyone who has been around a long time and was readily apparent from this fellow GM sponsored team member from a facility with close business relationships with the one sponsoring the HOT Team.

President Theodore Roosevelt made the proverb "Speak softly and carry a big stick" notable during the first part of the 20th century. I suggest those words are just as poignant today... Let your record be your (really) big stick and your actions on and off the field speak softly.

I hope this thread and my admission of a long time impression of The HOT Team will help them to try to put forth a more softly spoken impression of themselves.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

I like them HOT, as opposed to Lukewarm. ;)

Re: Elitist Teams
 

I would like to mention that this is not the opinion of T3 at all. As team leader of FIRST Team 68, I found HOT an excellent alliance partner as well as an excellent opponent to cooperate with. They were gracious to us in situations during the day and we appreciate the level of focus and aggressiveness they bring to competition. They are an example to other teams as to how to be graciously professional as well as extremely competitive at the same time. I believe they exemplify the true meaning of the FIRST Robotics Competition and we look forward to competing with and against them in the future. They were even patient with our team when we tried to but a wrench in their strategy. We were impressed in their ability to see this coming.

It is the nature of competitiveness to try to beat the number one seed. We appreciate what HOT brings to the field.

Thank you Adam for addressing all of these issues on the topic and we look forward to competing with and against you again. Our team shares a common philosophy that with other teams: "When you lose, you say nothing. when you win you say even less." I plan to use HOT as a great example of this for my team at our meeting tomorrow.

By the way, did you guys find a button on your toolbox? We left you a souvenir.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

Mike,

I can asure you that, at least since I started on the HOT team in 2005, that our intention was always to "speak softly and carry a big stick". I am not sure what happened before that, but I know we (mentors) stress to the students before every competition that they need to be on their best behavior, help anyone that needs it, cheer wildly for all teams, stand and clap during awards, etc...

As discussed previously, sometime our perception of reality is not alway the same as someone elses. So we will take this information and continue to improve.

Thank you! I was a little surprised to see that comment from a student from Truck Town, but I never thought it represented the entire team. I know we have always had a close relationship between the mentors, since we are always right next to each other in the pits. I was hoping that we hadn't done something to hurt that relationship.

Actually, out of all the teams HOT currently has such an incredible link to 68, 548, and 3098 between family members and former mentors and/or students... it's awesome to attend events when these teams are also attending. It's like a family reunion at some of these FiM events.

Anyways, I know we kind of stepped on each others toes during practice matches, with both of us trying to get our Hybrid modes working. I was hoping that wasn't an issue.

I had no problem with the stuff about the Coopertition bridge. I understand the strategy and why your alliance would have wanted you guys to continue to score and balance. My biggest worry is if teams start to not want to coop balance with us at all.

Thank you to everyone that has commented and supported our team. We really appreciate it.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

Our experiences with 67, both as partners and opponents, have always been positive.

There have been a lot of good points made in this thread. I particularly agree with Adam Freeman about the need for a separate thread about Qualification Match etiquette vs. Elimination Round etiquette. I have a rather strong opinion about elimination rounds - the captain has final say on strategy and tactics. For qualifications rounds I'm still not quite sure what the proper etiquette is. We try to come in with a well reasoned plan, and usually our alliance partners go along. When there are different opinions, I'm never sure how hard I should push, or when I should shut up and agree to something I'm not fully on-board with. A lot of it depends on who you are talking to, and sometimes you have different ways of looking at things or different short term priorities. Regardless, we always do our best to start with some plan and follow it as best we can (say what you'll do and do what you say).

Also, its a different world behind the glass. I urge everbody to take any perceived insult or perceived intentional deviations from the plan with a grain of salt.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

If there are too many things on a coach's mind, then really it may boil down to a simple lack of focus rather than an affront by a so-called 'eilite' team. If Adam is spread thin and unable to focus on what he's good at during events, he needs to learn to delegate more ;).

Re: Elitist Teams
 

1519 has been fortunate enough to play both with and against the HOT team several times in the past. I have nothing but good memories of doing both. As an alliance partner, they are knowledgable, constructive and co-operative and a lot of fun to play with. Adam's response to this thread seems typical of a classy team. We look forward to more matches with 67, especially the chance to be at the same end of the field :)

Noel

Re: Elitist Teams
 

I would like to apologize for some of the things I said previously. I was upset about some other things, and I made some comments that I regret. I don't have a sufficient sample size to draw any conclusions, so I am sorry if I offended anyone, especially Adam Freeman, who has been very honorable in standing up to this situation.

I would like to apologize again and note that this is not my personal opinion either, but something that came out of anger from a mental lapse from an unrelated incident, and I am very sorry that I may have hurt the perception of Truck Town in the eyes of HOT. I can assure you that our view of you has not been tainted by a recent occurrence.

So, once again, for what it's worth, I am very sorry about my comments and any and all drama or misunderstandings brought about by them. I fully understand if you do not feel like you can accept my apology.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

I will put this out there for everyone. We are by no means perfect. At times during a competition watching matches and evaluating teams, we make comments that are not always positive. We are obviously always evaluating teams on their performance and ability to execute a logical strategy.

When I see a match were six teams have no plan in place or any strategy to succeed, I tend to make comments about it to my teammates. When a team should single balance for the win, and instead messes around trying to double balance...I get upset.

Most of the time, there are other teams that can hear us. I am sure they are thinking that we are making these statements because we think we are better than the teams on the field.

I wish we could help every team get better both with their machine and strategy. This would make our job much easier in strategy discussions...and playing matches much more fun. Our team loves offense....so a 100 to 99 victory, would be (although extremely stressful) very awesome! This is why I love playing on Einstein and at IRI. The level of play is so high, it's amazing!

Anyway, I figure I should put those imperfections out there for everyone to balance all the positive comments...before someone else come on here and states that they have experienced us being elitists in some way.

One of my favorite things to do it to show up to competitions we are not at and try to help other teams with strategy tips or advice from what I have seen while watching matches. If a team wants my advice great, if not no problem either.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

Jesse,

Yeah I am pretty sure that may be the case. :)

I am pretty much a control freak... so even though we have good people working on scouting and pick list, I am still up the night before scouring through data and formulating my own list.

What I haven't brought up is, Saturday morning we were having a heated debate about which team we were going to select if we did indeed seed #1. So when I probably should have been discussing strategy in a timely manner for this match in question. I was in the stands watching the one or two of the top 4 teams on our list play their matches too.

Delegation is not my strong suit. Just ask the guys that work for me....

Re: Elitist Teams
 

As far as I know, it is the members of CD who have decided to use the term, Elitist. I don't know that it has been the teams calling themselves that. I'm not sure we're doing ourselves a favor by usually that term or by throwing it around in a casual manner. It does little to help us understand the caliber of the teams that are being called, Elitist.

I haven't finished thinking through that thought, myself, but I know there is a whole lot more to teams that are members of the Hall of Fame as well as robot competition Champions on a world class level. The direction that I'm headed with this line of thinking is towards the level of responsibility that goes with that incredible success, using Gracious Professionalism and Coopertition as guideposts. By using them as guideposts, it keeps all of us aware of who we are and what we are fighting for. Oh, ok... change fighting to striving: what we are striving for.

Jane

Re: Elitist Teams
 

No not at all, I need to better prepare my students and myself to advocate for what we need.

We would have never even considered it if the other team hadn't cooperated with you numerous times before. Any team would be crazy not to cooperate with your team this year.

Can't wait to compete with 67 soon.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

I'm a rookie on 470 but I've been on another team before. I've experience this with the same team and have seen them do it to other teams as well. They don't deserve a second chance, they deserve to be banned from FIRST or otherwise chastised for their blatant disregard of gracious professionalism.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

You think a Championship Chairman's winning team should be banned from FIRST?

I suggest you re-evaluate your position, as it is thoroughly untenable.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

Wayne

I agree that it can be hard to know how hard to push for "your" strategy in qualification matches, especially if you feel that your own strategy is more firmly anchored in good scouting, a realistic assessment of robot capabilities and how to play that year's game. One issue we ran into last year was that in our opinion the best way to maximize alliance score was to not have all three robots trying to score tubes, but of course everyone wants their team to see their robot scoring tubes. Working out how hard to push on this point was challenging. Especially when you think a match will be close, getting the balance right between the strategy most likely to give the alliance a win vs making everyone on the alliance happy about their robot's role on the field can be difficult.

It is indeed a different world behind the glass, both for coaches and students. We have two young ladies as driver and operator this year who are both going to be majoring in piano performance at college next year. I'm convinced that their experience of performing in front of other people is an asset to our drive team, something I hadn't really considered before they started driving.

Noel

Re: Elitist Teams
 

And you suggesting they be banned fits your definition of Gracious Professionalism? Did you not read any of this thread? Adam has apologized and explained his position in every way possible barring another language, and you still feel the need to talk trash about them?

Re: Elitist Teams
 

I didn't post anything in this thread because I've never had issues with elite teams, but dude you are out of line.

Adam's apology and responses in this thread have been amazing yet you turn around and spit this right back. Think before you post up again and actually read what he has to say. Don't just be mad and call it a day.

To the OP- thanks for this discussion
Adam- thanks for your extremely well thought out and worded responses, they were actually inspirational.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

I agree. Even though my earlier comments were critical but (hopefully) constructive, Adam took them and stated that his intention was to continuously improve... an admirable goal all around!

Re: Elitist Teams
 

I want to jump on the bandwagon a little with Adam here. I know I've said things on competition weekends that I've thought back on and tought to myself, "I wish I handled that differently". Almost always, the situation involves being pressed for time so I say something that in my mind is perfectly logical, but from someone else's perspective that is not in my mind and doesn't see my whole train of thought that lead to that statement, it probably sounds mean/rude/or something else negative.

A great example happened in Detroit last week. I think it was Saturday morning, but it might have been late Friday afternoon. Anyway, a lot of matches have been played by this point.

Our team needed to do an adjustment to the shooter on the practice field between matches. As always, time was tight and the practice field was busy. As soon as we got the adjustment done, the team needed to run to the match queue so I volunteered to clean up at the practice field and return things to the pits (ethernet cables, laptop, etc.).

As I was tidying up, a couple of students from a rookie team came up to me and asked "we're in an upcoming match with you. Can we balance the coopertition bridge?"

I said something like, "so, you're our opponents, right?" (As background, in all of the qulifying matches we've played this year (24 thus far) we've been the designated coop bridge balancer in all but one match. I assumed if someone was coming to us to talk about the coop bridge, it was an opponent.)

One of the students said, "no, we're your partner."

At this point I thought: if they're suggesting that they do the balancing, then they must be really good at it. Afterall, we had balanced successfully in all but one match at that competition. I thought "great - this will allow us to score a little more and balance the team bridge. It will help us get the 4 QPs."

With the above in mind, I said something like. "Cool. How many times have you done it, and how many times were you successful?"

The student then looked a little sheepish and said, "well, this will be the first time. In fact, our robot still hasn't really played yet."

To this I said something like, "Well, in that case, I'm sorry but I'd have to say no. We're ranked in the top 3 right now and the coopertition bridge is a key part of our strategy." And then I think I got up and left.

I can't remember if I said any more to soften the blow or not, but probably not. I remember being in a hurry since the reason I was alone on the practice field was that our team had to rush to the queue for a match and I really didn't want to miss the match. My mind was thinking of many different things at that time, and how to be tactful in a delicate situation was probably well down my mental priority list at that time. Just after it happened, I didn't think much of it. However, later on I thought back to it and I started thinking, "Maybe I didn't say the right things there. Did I come off as a jerk?" Unfortunately, my memory of the situation was a little blurry so there's a good chance I wasn't thinking straight and I didn't handle the situation very well.

Looking back on it, the students probably thought I was one of those veteran team jerks. To be honest, I wouldn't blame them if they thought that. I would like to think that most of the people that know me think I'm a pretty nice guy. But if I get wrapped up in something else while you're trying to get my attention, then I probably may not come off so well.

Unfortunately, you only get one chance to make a first impression. Hopefully, someone on a team gives you a bad first impression, give them another chance. A lot of times someone's mind is off in another place at a competition and they may not be their normal self at that time.

The only saving grace for me with that team is that I was helping them from Friday afternoon through Saturday morning getting parts of their robot working. Although, their team probably thinks I'm two different people. Something like, "Not all of those 51 guys are bad. That guy that helped us get the compressor going was nice - not like that jerk from the practice field that you told me about." :)

Re: Elitist Teams
 

So, a little off-topic, but something I want to address anyways:

The kid said they were a rookie. Cut them some slack. Instead of publicly shaming them, send them a message that isn't so harsh and explain to them why you think their post was uncalled for.

I'd hate to see someone be shunned and turned off to CD because they stuck their foot in their mouth (because then I'd be half the person I am now... the only reason I kept coming back is cause I'm stubborn).

EDIT: It has been brought to my attention that they have been on another team. Although they should know better, there are better ways to show them the error in their ways. I've said some dumb things before on this forum, some that I have been severely scolded for and other that have been handled in a less harsh manner. I know which ones I had grown more from, with clear understanding where I went wrong and why I should think differently.


****

HOT/Adam, very graceful replies. I hope that I one day can take criticism as gracefully as you.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

In all fairness he said he was a rookie on 470 but had been on another team before so rightfully should know better.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

Ayup, missed that part.

None the less, five people shaming someone doesn't solve the problem.

Back to the previous discussion...

Re: Elitist Teams
 

Have to agree with Katie. While his statement may have been with poor judgement, the response could have been a little bit softer. I too have said some ill-advised things on CD, and thankfully they were taken likely and I was given a second chance. It would be good to apply that here as well.

Glad to hear this, and thank you. Having been a member of our drive team before, I know how important it is to not only develop a good strategy for the coming match, but make sure all the teams are connected and agree on that strategy.

I can personally say that after attending the Midwest Regional for the last 3 years, I have encountered numerous "powerhouse" teams (16, 71, 111, 118, 148, 1625, 1732). All of these teams, while driven to win with what they think are their best strategies to win, are very welcoming and great to work with. They all have a lot of experience, and help to show why their strategy is the best one to win with, not just shove it down your throat. I have the up-most respect for these teams and they are some of the most gracious teams I have ever encountered.

Will you occasionally run into some one who thinks they know what's best and you don't? sure. Does that mean you should hate their team forever? Definitely not.

I suppose that's just my $0.02

-Nick

Re: Elitist Teams
 

This thread reminded me of something really rather disturbing that happened to several members of my team at Championships in 2010.

As you may/may not know, team 1868 is an all-girls team. We're nowhere near being a powerhouse team, but we usually do reasonably well and 2010 was a good year for us. A couple of team members went up to the drive team of an alliance member during queue to talk strategy.

To our astonishment, they point-blank refused to talk to us, saying that all-girls teams suck and that we should play defense while they scored. One person literally spat at my friend in the face when she started to say that actually we were a pretty good midfield team and that that might be a better role for us to play.

The girls in question unfortunately didn't tell any FIRST officials at the time, and I didn't even hear about it until that night at our pick-list meeting. I was astonished that this had happened in FIRST, which has always been an incredibly supportive environment even for people who don't fit the usual expectations of a "robotics nerd".

I know that this isn't the sort of elitist that was directly related to the topic of the thread, but I think it is important that the community know that incidents like this happen even in FIRST.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

While the OP was pointing out a single instance involving the HOT team, we can not and should not single them out. I've been around FIRST for a while now and these types of actions are not limited to the so called "Elitist" teams. Every team is out to win, every team wants to show off what they built, and every team has their moments of weakness. I've had a past life as a drive coach, so I'm well aware of what goes on during strategy development, on field actions, and the potential fallout of when things don't go as you want. Some times you see a matchup and want the alliance to know this is what has to be done to win, some times the matchup allows for a variety of options. Every match is different and everybody's willingness to go along with the set strategy may not always be equal. Having a solid strategy may sometimes come off as "we are telling you what to do," but in reality, they are just looking out for what's best for the alliance.

For those that have claimed that HOT is solely about winning and doesn't care about anything or anyone else, hopefully you will someday change your mind. I've heard this claim before, and I've been quick to try and diffuse that notion. Over the years I have worked with and built relationships many HOT team alumni. I've never met a group of people more passionate about FIRST and all that it stands for. Whether helping get new teams off the ground or joining a struggling veteran, people that have gone through the system that HOT has developed have proven to be extremely knowledgeable and helpful in all situations.

My team has unfortunately been elimated by HOT twice this year, first in the finals at Waterford, and most recently in the quarterfinals at Northville. There aren't any hard feelings, infact laughs and congratulatory words were shared by both in each instance. If nothing else, these experiences serve as an inspiration to keep improving.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

Obviously, we have plenty of issues ourselves, and NO ONE should ever be banned from FIRST. We live, we grow, teach and learn. Participation is a requirement for that to happen.

I will say, I'm proud of Joel for his effort to start the discussion as a generic topic. A couple years ago, it would have been easy for him to jump on a keyboard and fly off the handle. We all get a bit hot under the collar at times, especially in the heat of competition. (and sometimes during the build.) Hopefully we learn to cool off and look at situations objectively, before we do or say something to aggravate them. From what I've read here, I'd say the result has largely been a healthy discussion.

Thank You Adam, for your comments as well! Indeed, as was stated earlier, a "Class Act". I for one, would love to pick your brain on a number of subjects. Hope we get a chance to talk at MSC. The Students aren't the only ones in this to learn.

Steve Martin
Engineering Mentor - 470

Re: Elitist Teams
 

Great thread, good response by Adam.

It is an important issue to flesh out as I've had my moments in competition as a spectator and alumni commentator amongst FIRST friends (and these days, advising the Ypsi teams, more so 470).

Since I have joined FIRST in 2001 (FLL, older sister in FRC on the championship winning team (for those keeping notes at home: Penguins, post Mystery Machine)), I have had (way too much) time to think this over. But I really do not worry too much about it, as what we discuss here reflects fairly accurately on the real world (i.e. USA over the rest of the world, yet that is disappearing as we speak).

Thus, some thoughts:

1.) The "speak softly and carry a big stick quote" is important. For those of us who work hard on the "speak softly" part of this, the "carrying a big stick" part has a heck of a learning curve, and with teams (or generally large groups) this is a heck of a task... Same goes if you're working hard on carrying the big stick and need the speak softly bit.

2.) As an alumnus of 66, and having had the privilege to be partners with 67 back in 2005's GLR, I must admit that yes, it is great to be on a great team with a great robot, etc. etc. etc. But it is extremely good to keep the mind in check. As in asking yourself: OK, team's good, competition looking like it is going to be ours, are our partners in line with us? Did we miscommunicate something? How do things look from the less experienced or less capable teams and how can I work with them so that our alliance and/or the overall competition experience comes off well.

2a.) This goes for in real life too: prospects for college/career look good, family and friends online with you here? Any miscommunications need addressing? etc. Oh yeah, do I have some idea or a strategy with what I am doing in life? Build confidence on facts, credible claims, and solid skills. And even then, always be looking out for the next possible 'gotcha'. Keep on this and you'll have no time for grumbling against others.

I post this, apologizing for where I have screwed up (mightily) before (even this weekend).

On a side note: Joel made a small uttering of Ypsilanti and Willow Run School Districts consolidating. This will be put up to a vote, if it passes, there is a likelihood that 66/470 could pool resources, hopefully not merge, as having a couple teams in the area is good for many reasons. I anticipate any result to be awesome, but I will be monitoring closely to help things go smoothly... :/

Peace to all!

Re: Elitist Teams
 

There are some teams who act as if they are "better" than others, but if you look closely at it, they generally are. If I were in some great coincidence allianced with 67 in a match, I'd listen to them. They have much more experience and knowledge than I do, and if I listen to them, I'll learn a thing or two.

Now when I say these teams act "better" than others, I don't mean they are ignorant and snotty, as others have referred to them as. I mean they act like they know what they're doing, like the finals fields aren't new to them. These teams have much more experience than the average team, and in some cases, may know a better strategy than the average teams. As an average team, we (my team included) should not only look up to these teams, but learn from everything they tell us.

It's like talking with a college professor. The professor obviously knows more than you do, so instead of calling him an elitist, and saying he/she thinks he/she is better than you, try and take the opportunity to learn as much as you can from him/her.

These teams aren't elitists, but they sure are elite.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

I have coached/mentored an all female team for ten years in FIRST, and although this sort of thing has happened to us on occasion, it is very rare. Most of the teams that we have encountered base their perceptions of us on our performance, not on the fact that the only males on our team are some of the mentors. I make a point of telling my team that as females, there may be people out there who have doubts about their ability to design and build robots, but the best way to show them they are wrong is to prove it on the field or in the pits by succeeding themselves and helping others succeed. However, on the rare occasions this has happened, I made sure that I or another mentor would hear about it immediately so that we could go have a private chat with a mentor from that team afterward. Doing your best and trying to exhibit GP at all times pays off, and is the best way to answer those that look down on you. And, to get back to the topic of this thread, I have found that when we do this, those "Elite" teams take notice, and we have rarely had a problem being snubbed by the powerhouses.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

Well this got nasty really quickly. Seems like time for a thread closure.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

I meant to say this at the start of the thread. But experience does not equal the right to run a match how a team sees fit. If they want to lead the match, and the other teams are willing to follow, then so be it. But it in no way gives a team right to boss others around. I AM NOT saying that's what anyone was doing, I wasn't there. All the information I have it by this thread. So I won't make judgments. But a lot of people are saying that because a certain team is ludicrously amazing at building robots, and has a history of winning the highest, most prestigious and honorable awards in FIRST, that they should have been listened to, no matter what. I respectfully disagree.

-Leeland

Re: Elitist Teams
 

The OP can request that the thread be closed.
That said, as the OP for the thread, We Left The Boys At Home, the thread was closed, initially, at my request - and then reopened later, to my surprise. I think a mentor or two felt the discussion wasn't over and asked that it be reopened. I'm really glad that it was. It is one of my favorite threads in ChiefDelphi. This one is becoming another favorite and will be one that I refer to for any number of reasons.

I trust the moderators to be following this thread and they will determine if it is in need of closing. I also think the OP will know when enough is enough.

In the meantime, there are still lots of interesting posts that are contributing to a good discussion.

Jane

Re: Elitist Teams
 

Run like the Triplets or Martians instead of Wings of Fire? How Dare You! :p

In all seriousness, I think this thread is a really good wake-up call despite the tendency for verbal beat-downs, and should thus remain open for some time longer as its purpose is still present.

If you're an elite team, or are thought of as an elite team, it's an opportunity for self-reflection and an evaluation of how you come across. It's also an opportunity to reach out to other teams in the area on non-robot-related items--how do we come across? Do we come across as arrogant, elitist, entitled jerks, or do we come across as just another team that somehow happens to have multiple event wins and awards and wants everyone else to share in our knowledge?

And, if you're not in the elite class, what is YOUR attitude towards the teams that you consider to be in that class? Are you assuming that they are unapproachable, godlike, disdainful? Or are you making the attempt to talk to them? Learn from them? As the early discussion showed, sometimes the best of the best don't act the best. And sometimes it's on them to cross the gap and sometimes it's not.

Threads like this one sometimes have to be brought up. And quite often, proflict* produces the best results. These threads--and boy are there a lot this year!--serve a useful purpose. After all, if everything's going A-OK, then there just might be something horribly wrong...


*proflict: (n) Disagreement that is hashed out in a productive manner. Similar to conflict, but directed towards solving a problem, not attacking things that disagree with your methods/ideals/solutions.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

I agree. I think the this thread has not gotten nearly as out of hand as some of the other threads relating to this type of topic.

I think there are still some opportunities for people to express either their thoughts and impressions of different teams or experiences where issues may have come up and how they were handled.

One thing I did notice, is that I keep calling 470-RBTX, Joe, instead of Joel. This was not done on purpose. I just thought I read his name was Joe when I started my initial response and carried that through most of my posts. This was not done intentionally.

I am very excited to get to Troy this weekend, so I can experience some of these interactions with this new understanding. Hopefully, we can all have some good strategy discussions and have a great competition together.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

I think everything that needs to be said has been said and we've all left this thread a little smarter, a closure would be appreciated.

Re: Elitist Teams
 

Done and done.