IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

IRI 2012 is July 20 - 21. Same location as 2011.
Details on timing for applications, invitations, fees, etc. will be coming soon.

For now - what ideas for rule / play adjustments do you have?

Remember, the goal of the IRI is to maintain the primary focus of the FIRST game, but sometimes make tweaks to rules or game play based on the benefit of seeing multiple events and how the game has played out. So, we won't make major changes or radical departures form the game teams have designed robots to play.

As thought starters, here are a few ideas i have heard -

1. Less value on co-op bridge (1 point vs. 2).
2. Use a "money ball" at the end that has extra bonus value if scored (option to help offset 40 point triple balance).
3. Longer Autonomous to encourage the use of Kinect.
4. Longer Teleop to allow for strategies to play out differently (3 minutes?).

This probably wouldn't fit in IRI, but it would be pretty awesome to see a "hybrid" that was a minute long, where balls got returned.

Co-op balances with 1QP for every team past 1 and allow sketchier balancing devices.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

If you want to drive Kinect use, allow a Kinect driven robot to ignore the backcourt violation.

Wetzel

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

One thing I've been thinking about all season is maybe changing the rules involving hanging on the bridge. I don't know if this would be considered too "radical," but basically allowing structures like 118's original bridge hanging device from their initial reveal video to be used without incurring penalty.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

Instead of altering timing (which I'm a bit leery of, given how longer runs get our CIMs way too hot on last year's robot), how about this: A Kinect-using robot can pre-load a third ball.

A money ball could be fun to fight over--say that the ref puts it in the corral of the alliance that "won" the hybrid period at 30 seconds (at the train whistle). If there's a tie, put one in both corrals. With the right point value (+10 over the basket's value? 15?), it could open up a lot of new strategies (both offensive and defensive).

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

Dump the Kinect. Waste of floor space.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

I vote for this. Totally agreed.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

Couldn't you then use a Kinect, but not do anything with it?

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

Last minute "hail marry" shots should be worth the hybrid period points (4, 5, and 6 points per basket, respectively).

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

I could go for that. That's one heck of a shot to hit those.
I finally hit one last weekend in DC after getting the field up and nearly threw out my elbow doing it. Kudos to those who hit it often.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

I'd love to see a change in the penalty for contacting an opposing alliance's bridge; it would be nice to see no penalty for this unless you contact the bridge while the opposing alliance is. This would get rid of the 9 pt fouls and also introduce the possibility of snatching 2 extra balls if you are careful.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

I hit three shots :D
I also upvote the human player bonus idea :cool:


Here's my idea:
In eliminations, the co-opertition bridge can still be used. If a robot is balanced on that bridge, it receives 10 points. In other words, in elims a triple balance is worth 40 points, and a double and single balance gets you 30 points.
Now the actual "having control of the co-op bridge" is the real problem. I haven't picked a really nice solution yet, but maybe the money ball mentioned earlier could be used for this purpose of securing the co-op bridge to one alliance.

-Duke

P.S. I wholeheartedly upvote the CP bridge balance being worth just one seeding point (or maybe get rid of it altogether? Then apply my elims rule to all matches?)

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

How about making the autonomous pre-loads 6 balls per alliance instead of 2 per robot. (so one robot could have 6 pre-loads)

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

Good suggestion, but IRI is supposed to make the game more user-intuitive, but also a bit harder.

How about: Each robot can start with a maximum of 1 ball, and the remaining 12 are placed randomly on the 3 bridges.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

I don't really agree with you on this point. IRI is not supposed to be harder (the teams that come make it harder, but the game is not changed to be more difficult) it's supposed to take the rules that people don't necessarily like and remove them, or add ones to make the game more fun.

I would prefer having 6 balls that can be distributed any way among your alliance rather than taking away balls from them and putting them on the bridges.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

Agreed, prefect example is last year. Ubertubes could be scored in teleop, and the value of a minibot was depreciated. Didn't make it harder, just made the rules more fun and more agreeable.

-Duke

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

Whichever way works. :) I haven't been to IRI yet, so I've only heard it's harder.

Note to self: Go to IRI sometime.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

It's harder because every team there is really really good.
Even if your team can't go, you should go to watch. It's amazing.

-Duke

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

or how about giving bonuses to shots made with the Kinect station and give bonuses to shots made while balanced on the bridges. You could also then say that any ball made while on the co-op bridge in the quals those points go towards both alliances' QS ranking score.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

What if you decreased the point value of two robots on the coopertition bridge and had a special value if three robots are on the coopertition bridge.

Just a thought I think it would be cool.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

It's harder because 85% of the 70-robot field is the caliber of 254 and 971. Not because the rules are harder. (The other 15% wants to be at that caliber.)

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

WOW. :ahh: That's tough! I'll need to watch the webcast this year for sure!

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

Aw man, I saw EricH was the last one to post and I was really excited to see his suggestion for rule changes. No such luck. :(

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

It's like shaving the cream that has risen to the top of each championship division putting them into a blender and serving the concoction up to the FIRST community for dessert.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

9 points for incidental contact on the opponent's bridge, including contact that doesn't affect the game at all, is way too much of a penalty. Aside from that, I can't really think of anything that needs to be changed right now - it would probably be a good idea to wait for Championships to see what really high-level competition looks like.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

Co-op bridge: Most (if not all) of the teams at IRI will be able to double balance with reasonable reliability. I worry that deciding the point at which you stop scoring and go to the bridge will create a sort of prisoner's dilemma. (Delaying 10 seconds from an agreed balance time is good for winning an individual match but bad for earning other teams' trust.) However, I feel like removing its functionality altogether would take away a core aspect of the game. I like the idea of getting three robots on a bridge in teleop, but we don't want to be unfair to the team using two robots on the co-op bridge. Given all of this, how about the following?

• Normal co-op balances are worth 1 QP. Maybe co-op non-balances are worth .5 QP, maybe they're worth nothing.
• Triple co-op balances are worth 2 QP and 10+n points to the alliance with two robots on the bridge to cover the opportunity cost, where 0 ≤ n ≤ 5. If the triple balance rate were 100%, n would be 0, but the maneuver carries with it a relatively large risk; it'd be nice to at least throw a tiebreaker the way of the team taking it.
  EDIT: Upon further reflection, n should probably be 0... we don't want any co-op balances sabotaged, and this reduces the chance of that.

Human player shots: They're cool, but I want to see robots doing things. If I want to see humans playing basketball I can watch TV :P. Only very slightly more seriously, 6 points is too much of a swing for such a luck-based event. On the other hand, giving bonus points to robots making shots from behind the barrier (not on the bridges, which give a height boost) would be pretty cool. However, it would be nontrivial to find the source of every shot without extra referees.

Bridge penalties: 9 points is too much. How about 3 points until there are 30 seconds left, then stock rules after that?

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

MSC and the MAR championship should be a real good indication of how IRI will play out.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

That coop bridge would get balanced 99% of the time. I say throw it out all together and use elimination bridge rules (much more fun). I don't like the idea of bonus points for shooting from far away because a lot of robots are not designed to shoot past the key. It would be fun with more balls on the field though maybe start 3 or 4 on each bridge instead of 2.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

How about Inbounders can only hold one ball rather than two? This would make ball control by the robots rather than the humans more important.

In general, I think the best rule changes for IRI are the ones that create new strategies for winning that are competitive with those already proven as winners.

I think a money ball, or actually two, one for each alliance, that can be entered in the last thirty seconds, but only through the Inbound slot would be interesting if it was worth 5 times a normal basket. This would make it a toss up as to whether or not to go for the triple balance or for the money ball. But some of the best might pull off both especially if you worked as a team!

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

I want to see the triple implemented on all three bridges in qualification matches. It will make teams have to decide where to balance, triple on your own to win, or try to double all three bridges and hope for the win and coop. If you think you will loose you're better off trying to triple on the coop bridge with two of your robots and one from the other alliance. Rarely at IRI would you have a team not on the bridge at the end since they will be worth so many points.

1 QP for double coop bridge and 2 for a triple like others have said. I am not sure about giving a score bonus to the team with 2 robots, I don't see that playing out very well.

There have been so many creative triple balance strategies (NYC anyone), I would love to see impromptu triple balances on the coop bridge.

I also think that at least one ball from each alliance bridge should be moved to the center bridge. The battle for the bridge in hybrid is going to be so important at Championship that making it have more balls will increase competitiveness. Do you shoot first or go to the bridge first and shoot once you have the balls on your side. It would be much harder to 5 ball if you can't shoot your two first, though I guess you could shoot them while moving back to the bridge.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

Perhaps alliance bridges (which should be cake to double balance at IRI) could be limited to use in the last 20 seconds. This makes you really work for those extra points. Penalties for early balancing would be similar to deploying a minibot early.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

Make the opposing alliance's bridge off limits for only the last 30 seconds of the match.

Increase the number of balls on the field, 6 more would be nice.

Make the key penalties 1 pt instead of 3.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

Technical fouls are worth 5 points.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

I like this idea, for incidental contact. But I'm not sure you should be able to drive over the other alliance's bridge, for example.


My idea for an off-season addition would be to add two balls to each bridge at the start.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

The removal of alleys. Makes it quite difficult to defend against the triple balance if all 3 enter from that side.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

I really don't see the purpose of having alleys anyway. Seems like a useless penaltymaker - I know why they were put there when the game was conceptual, but in actual gameplay they're just not good.

Get rid of the G28-G40 goofiness. Once again, makes sense in theory, but in practice it just invites negativity. Also puts some onus on the referees unnecessarily.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

I remember an off season last year (Battlecry if memory serves me correctly) got really lenient with the zone incursion rules and teams abused the lanes all day long to get tubes they would not have been allowed to get during the season. You may not like the rules guys but they are there to stop teams from going crazy on the playing field and stopping all those awesome plays that gets everyone talking.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

Idea #1 - Bridge Points alterations:

Qualifying: 10 points for one robot on your alliance bridge, 20 points for two. 1 Bonus qualifying point instead of 2.
Elimination: 10 points for one robot on your alliance bridge, 20 points for two, 40 for three. Bonus 9 points for the first alliance to balance their bridge first during the last 30 seconds of the match - so long as the bridge remains balanced till the end of the match. If the "first bridge" that was balanced becomes unbalanced, the bonus is not scored to any alliance. If both bridges were balanced at the time the 30 seconds begins, both alliances 'qualify' for the bonus, and if a team unbalances, the bonus is lost to them, but still available for the other.


Idea #2a though #2c - Rule Edits:

a) No "more than 3 balls" foul called during Hybrid mode. 5 second grace period after end of hybrid mode to clear out any extra balls before fouls are called.

b) Add two additional basketballs to the game, starting one on each alliance bridge.

c) Robots in Hybrid Mode get 15 seconds of autonomous use, and a robot controlled by the Kinect gets an additional 10 seconds. (aka, you can't just have one person stand in front of the kinect station and have 10 additional seconds of autonomous play, it has to be controlled via kinect.)


Idea #3 - Play the fourth robot

You aren't really supposed to like or want this idea, but if there was ever a year to have four robots on the field, this would be the year to give it a shot.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

How about just taking the ball holding cap off all together? I know most robots this year are designed specifically to only hold 3 balls, but it would make for interesting starvation play...do you shoot and give your opponents the ball or do you wait and starve them of the balls you possess?

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

I don't know if they're actually able to do this, as this requires going down into the actual software and changing things, which I know is fairly difficult if not impossible.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

I would like to see <G28> changed to something like robots may not contact an opponent when breaking the plane of the opponents key or lane. It seems like teams have too much protection and it keeps teams from entering those high risk areas to take balls from their opponents. It also seems like refs are having a hard time with the <G28> <G44> <G45> combination. I would like to see that go away.

I like this idea. Allows for more open play on the offensive half of the court as well.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

We spent an entire regional playing defense, gathering balls and mucking up traffic for the opposing alliance while only gathering 1 foul and winning the regional. It is not as hard to do as many seem to think.

Wetzel

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

I think the game is pretty near perfect as it is. Perfect point balance between bridges and shooting balls, and the coopertition bridge is an awesome aspect. And if everyone is balancing it as people have suggested, it wouldn't matter anyways. But why eliminate the incentive to work together with the other alliance? It's awesome to see two teams battle fiercely throughout the match, and then turn around and work together to balance that bridge in the last 30 seconds.

The one swing and a miss was the Kinect (as many of us were saying from the start). And given the extremely tight space at IRI, it would make a lot of sense to eliminate it, given that nearly no one uses it anyway.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

I've got 2,

1) Every alliance gets one redo and/or time out.
The redo can only be used if the alliance looses a match due to; one robot breaking (like an obvious break (arm falls off, etc)), robot dies during the match (either unforeseen battery issue or loss of com), or something highly unexpected happens that causes the alliance to not get get as many points. Red cards may invalidate this redo... may not...

2) After the hybrid period the game stops until the head ref gives the OK to start again.
This solves any issue of hybrid balls not being worth full points due to either going in after the bell or because of a jam. There have a few matches that have been stop and replayed mid match due to a jam that occurred in the hybrid period, again this solves that issue. The pause could also be just 5 seconds to keep the flow of the match going.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

Perhaps a physical modification can be done to reduce the jam occurrence as well. Either way, I like this.

Wetzel

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

You remember correctly about the rule change at Battlecry, but it wasn't just referee leniency and team abuse of the rules.

Last year, Battlecry made one of their official rule changes (for the 2011 game) to have the protected lanes end at the lane divider, instead of continuing to the tower. The change was an official rule change published and announced to all teams competing at the event, not just a leniency by the referees. Accordingly, it wasn't that the teams were abusing the rules -- they were just playing by the Battlecry-modified rules.

Actually, I think that Battlecry "shorter protected lanes" rule change was the best I saw all year for any of the off-season tournaments we attended -- it eliminated nearly all of the "accidental lane crossing" penalties. However, the rule change did tip the game balance a little more towards offense than defense.

Back to the theme of the original topic -- in general, I like rule changes (for IRI or other off-season tournaments) that are very minor tweaks that don't really affect the balance of the game but are instead to "fix" problems in the rules that weren't apparent before the game was really played but that are consistent with the original game design. I tend to like rules that get rid of "incidental" penalties that don't give a significant advantage/disadvantage to either team (this year's accidental touch of the other alliance's bridge for a 9-point penalty is a good example of a penalty that could be changed).

However, I really don't like rule changes that tip the balance to one kind of robot, as there are teams that designed their robots to play the original game, and changing the game rules often has the effect of essentially "playing favorites" to some types of robots.

For example, giving a 3-point bonus to all shots from the far side of the barrier would favor long-distance shooters over fender shooters, so I don't think such a rule change would be fair. Similarly, a rule change which gives more points for Kinect hybrid-scoring over non-Kinect hybrid-scoring wouldn't be fair to all teams, either. Add to that list rule changes that allow robots to hold more than 3 balls, or receive bonus points for balls scored from on top of a bridge, or

Part of the realization is that *any* rule change tends to favor some robots over others -- the trick is coming up with rule changes that really serve to help all teams!

Even rule changes that initially seem to help all teams equally are likely to favor some teams over others. For instance, increased match length will favor robots optimized for shooting rather than balancing, as increased match time gives more opportunities for teleop baskets, but doesn't give more opportunities for balance points. Longer matches would also favor teams which use less of their battery during a match -- however, those teams might have intentionally designed their robot to use most of their battery in a regulation-length match.

In sum, I tend to like rule changes which reduce annoyances in the penalties without affecting game play.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

I like this idea!

One of my pet peeves with the scoring system this year is seeing robots shoot balls right before the end of hybrid that end up being scored as teleop points because the balls didn't trigger the auto-counting system soon enough.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

Many previous games have had this in place - why not this one? Maybe the GDC just didn't realize how much autonomous scoring there would be... could they maybe implement it for championships?

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

Idea: There are 20 basketballs on the field. Yes, that's 2 more than normal. But those two extra basketballs are special. They're +3 if scored during either Hybrid or the end game. Each alliance starts with one. But...

They're NOT the normal basketballs. Either they've been given a funky covering, or they're actual basketballs (or you could just wrap a Poof ball in duct tape).


And, make more than 2 on the Coop bridge an extra bonus--1 Co-op point per extra balanced robot. If you really wanted to be devious, the Coop bridge also gives points based on how many robots are on it, at 10 for one, 20 for two, etc. If only one alliance is represented, that alliance gets all the points and no coop points. If both alliances are represented, each alliance gets the same amount of points (the highest possible) and coop points.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

It looks like things may actually work out and I may very well find myself n Indianapolis that weekend (summer classes are either all online, or end on Wednesday's).

I absolutely love the money ball idea. It sort of reminds me of the NBA's 3 point shooting contest. where the last ball on the rack is worth 2 points instead of one. Maybe inserting them at the 30 second mark and having them count for 2x the basket amount (2, 4 or 6 points). This could sort of have that super-cell endgame effect we saw in 2009.

I also think changing the number of basketballs used per match could make the game more interesting, Lowering the number could create a game similar to breakaway where ball control was key, or increasing the number of basketballs could have a plentiful effect and make the game play out more like Aim High or Lunacy.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

I think that ALL the spare balls should go on the cooperation bridge at the begging of a match. At IRI almost everyone will put up a strong hybrid score, so incentives for a team to write code that beats every other robot there to the middle bridge would be cool. This would also make defense robot that cross the bump in hybrid important because they would have a reason to start the match between the opposing robots and the fender.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

Here are my rule change suggestions, I would not implement all of them, as some of them are contradictory, but each on their own should enhance the game in a different way. I really support the first one.

• make the co-op bridge be worth 10 pts for a balance in eliminations. This way it is still better off to triple but would only be a 10pt difference if you got a double + the coop. Also this would be really exciting action for 2 alliances that can't triple. fight over the bridge at the end or score those last few points.

• put more balls on the field, Increase the number of balls from 18 to 24-36, should increase the scores in the matches and will take away starvation choke hold strategies. You can accomplish this by either putting them on the bridges or allowing teams to pre-load 3.

• Allow triple balancing during the qualification rounds, if a team does it they get 1 extra coop point (3 total for the winners)

• Go back to the old ranking system where win-loss-tie determines the main ranking and then use co-op points as the tiebreaker.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

Lasts year's IRI rules trimmed down the mini-bot scores, and added emphasis to teleop play by adding more scoring with ubertubes. This year's huge point bonus for triple balance could be trimmed from 40 to 30. That's still big enough to justify doing it, but would not overwhelm the teleop scoring quite as much.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

Just make the co-op bridge the tie breaker as (IMO) it should be. Or alternatively implement some "king of the hill" battle for the middle bridge as part of the endgame. Getting rid of the lanes sounds fun as well.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

Well that would make for interesting strategy as teams would probably draft a "cannon fodder" bot to battle for those points "for the sake of the alliance" and save scorers from potential elimination participation ending damage from such battles or ignore going for such points altogether if it's not worth the trouble.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

I still don't know why people want to nerf the coop bridge. It's an awesome game feature in every way.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

What if the bridges lost their distinction of red/blue/coop, and at the end of a match teams had to race to the bridges and balance on any of bridges. The alliance with the most robots balanced across the three bridges would get a bonus.

In case of a tie, the alliance with the largest number of their own robots on a single bridge gets the bonus.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

Still going to edge on the three point line...

Gaffer's Tape in a semi-circle tangent to the top of the key like on a real college/high school/elementary court. Beyond that line, every ball shot has an additional 2 points added to the original score only in teleop.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

This just made me remember a "God Bot" strategy I was talking about a few days ago.

1. Build a robot with a intake that was tall enough and wide enough to cover the whole feeder station opening.

2. Have your alliance make 7+ shots in hybrid mode. These all have to go in; if they don't additional balls have to be shot in during Tele-Op.

3. Immediately park your robot in front of the opposing alliance's feeder station.

4. Continuously shoot 3 pointers.

Because of the 6 ball holding limit; the Inbounders would have to throw at least 1 ball into your robot, since they can't throw it any where else. Once you score that ball they have to throw another one into your robot. Thus creating a constant scoring machine, much like the one 469 had in Breakaway.

In a regular season event this strategy only works until the opposing alliance comes to your side of the field and hits you; as you are in their lane. However, if IRI announces that they are removing lanes, I'm going to force my team to redesign our robot :rolleyes: .


Great idea, although I'd prefer an additional 1 point.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

Another idea, to enhance "coopertition."

During qualification, bridges are worth no points except for coopertition. A balanced bridge with two robots on it is worth 1 point, a bonus point is awarded if there is one robot from each alliance, for a maximum of 6 points.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

Another +1 to that from me. At Boston, one team used it. I don't know how it was across the rest of FRC.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

I believe one team wanted to use it at Northville, but it was broken.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

There were three different teams that used it at some point at St. Louis, which is the most I've seen. At SVR, I believe 840 may have been the only one that tried...

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

Replays in eliminations for communication issues on the field.

I know it'll never happen, but a man can dream, right?

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Every year in recent memory, there has been something about the rules that really bugged me. Lane incursions, mini-bot point values, etc.....
But I really think that the GDC nailed this one. What about the crazy idea of leaving well enough alone?

Either way, we are hoping to go to IRI and get taken to the "wood shed" once again. Its a valuable, fun, and humbling experience. :)

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

1. Pre-load with 3 balls each; no bonus points for balls scored in hybrid; 10 point bonus for leading at the end of hybrid.
2. Choose to pre-load or place in your own ball corral.
3. In-bounders may throw over the wall the entire match.
4. Make the Key a box (current width and 48" deep); robots are protected only when fully inside the box.
5. Bridge points 5, 10, 20 in quals and elims
6. 10 points plus 2 coop points to each alliance when balanced on coop bridge; no points for not balanced.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

No changes is also a very good suggestion. Also hoping to attend again this year and would add that while it is humbling, it is also inspiring.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

what about some sort of tip off. 1 member of each alliance can start hybrid at the middle ramp instead and said "moneyball" is on the middle ramp. When auto starts, the two robots would both push on the bridge, and the stronger bridge pull down would get the ball...or something to the equivalent.

Also Im going to be like the 30th person to suggest the Co-op bridge be 1 pt instead of 2.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

Hey! I was FTAA at Northville. It was not broken. We had a bad 50ft USB cable that we had to swap out. It took 15-20mins to diagnose what was wrong. But the team (a rookie team at that) was able to use Kinect every time they wanted to.

Also at Livonia this past weekend, the host team Livonia Warriors FRC 2832 used Kinect in most of their qualifying matches.

I leave it to those teams to decide on how effective it was though...

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

Coopertition Bridge Points
- 2 Supported robots on un-balanced bridge: 0 pts (instead of 1)
- 2 Supported robots balanced on bridge: 1 pt (instead of 2)
- 3 Supported robots balanced on bridge: 2 pts
- 4 Supported robots balanced on bridge: 3 pts
- 5 Supported robots balanced on bridge: 4 pts
- 6 Supported robots balanced on bridge: 5 pts

I really don't see more than 4 robots balancing on a bridge, but it makes sense that if you're that good at balancing you should be rewarded... I think with the level of the field at IRI, 2 robot balances on the co-op bridge would practically be a given. Reducing the point value of 2 balanced robots and adding the opportunity for more robots to balance would keep the challenge in it while preventing the co-op bridge points from getting ridiculous.

Qualification Alliance Bridge Points
- 3 balanced robots are worth 40 pts (same as elims)

I don't see why you shouldn't be able to do this in quals... If you'd rather win the match at the expense of the most seeing points, go ahead. By requiring 40 bridge points (and three robots) to win, you've put the handicap of not being able to get more seeding points on yourself...

Hybrid Scoring
- Any balls shot in hybrid that score are awarded the hybrid bonus. As some have suggested, this could be achieved by pausing the match after hybrid.

I've found the fact that balls shot in hybrid often fail to be counted frustrating... It seems like if a robot shot the scoring ball under hybrid control, it should get hybrid points. None of this trying to see if the ball had passed through the rim of the hoop by the end of hybrid period...

Hybrid Period Duration
- Hybrid period lasts for 20 seconds, instead of 15. This would enable more teams to realistically attempt scoring balls off the alliance bridges in hybrid.

It seems like the limiting factor for (more) teams doing this is the time...

Alliance Bridge Foul
- Alliance Bridge Fouls only apply when either a robot of the appropriate alliance is contacting it or during the final 30 seconds of the match.

This would help minimize some of the "pointless" fouls, while retaining the purpose of the foul. It would become more like the key and the lanes, which are only protected when in use.

Contacting Bridge Stipulation for "Stacking"
- Repeal G30-1, which requires a stacking robots to be in contact with the bridge.

This move is hard enough as is... I don't see what the motivation for requiring contact with the bridge is beside making the maneuver more sketchy and dangerous.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

We could just go cold turkey and roll with the IFI equipment, right? We can loan out a few of those.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

OK, brilliance. The GDC themselves said that they could adjust the balance points in either direction at Championships, by 5-15 points per robot, if they wanted to. ([G40] blue box)

The IRI organizers should do the same thing. How is up to them.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

One really important rule change will need to be on the maximum amount of basketballs in the corral and with the human players during the teleop period.

Bolded is the rule change:
The idea behind this is for a situation where it's basically impossible to keep it under six basketballs. Most likely cause of this is a ton of scoring all at once, e.g, 2-3 basketballs per robot, robot A scores in left middle, robot B scores in right middle, robot C scores in top/bottom. While this rule kind of goes without saying, we definitely want to avoid someone complaining and claiming that there was a penalty on the opposing alliance after they score 9 basketballs in a matter of seconds. And since it's IRI, this very well could happen.

-Duke

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

In basketball, if the shot is released by the shooter prior to the buzzer sounding, it counts. It should be the same in Rebound Rumble.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

Ahhh, the law of unintended consequences... It'll bite you every time!

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

Agree. Other than a pause between Hybrid and Teleop, how could that be accomplished? Not opposed to a pause, just wondering what other ideas there are to ensure that all balls scored and only balls shot during hybrid were counted.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

-I will reitterate the no lanes idea. Lanes are silly, perhaps turn the lane into only a square in front of the inbounder.

-I would love to see a moneyball that started on the co-op bridge along side of/ instead of the balls already there. This ball would be worth 3 points in addition to the normal basket points when scored and would be easily interfaced with the scoring system using the real time fouls. With one ball that is worth two I can see a lot of possible stratigy without changing the game play significantly.

-I like the traditional win loss tie that has been the standard at IRI, perhaps make the co-op bridge 1 point. I do not like the triple balance for 2 co-op points because it will mean that there will be a lot less playing the game in quals in favor of the co-op points.

-I would consider making the key smaller (read: smaller safe area to shoot from.)

Looking Forward to IRI!
Regards, Bryan

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

I thought so too until this weekend. At the CT regional, the #2 seeded alliance employed a strategy where 177 and 228 were almost always in or around the key, and their alliance partner, 236 would go over the bridge and stay sitting in the alley doing nothing until they decided to attempt the triple balance. With all of the robots in protected areas for the vast majority of the match, it made their triple balance seemingly indefensible. Maybe it's still "silly" but it's not as though it isn't important strategically!

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

Its too easy to score in Hybrid. Start the match with the bots touching the barrier. Maybe even on the far side of the barrier. Then you either have to shoot a longer distance accurately or move closer before shooting in hybrid.

Allow each driver to decide when Hybrid ends for his bot via a button at the alliance station. Each ball scored in Hybrid gets the +3 bonus points. This would definitely encourage Kinect to control the robot so that it can scoop up and shoot more balls in Hybrid. Probably not practical though, since it requires someone to track who is still in hybrid and who is not -- might work if hybrid continued for an entire alliance until someone on the alliance ended for the entire alliance simultaneously. Then the automatic scoring is not dependent upon where the ball came from.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

Another thought - do something about the ball hoarding/corral. In most every event, none of the refs patrolled that rule. Either strip it away, or have an extra eye on following that rule.

Also, and this is probably the easiest rule addition for everyone - Any basketballs shot over the player station wall by robots are put into that player station's corral rather than returned to the field. Fouls/Technicals given for purposefully passing balls in that way. This way, any of your missed shots over the top of the wall become "rebounded" and at least controlled by the opposite alliance.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

Teleop balls scored from the key worth (3/2/1)+1 point. This gives key shooters a small advantage over the fender shot (when there is no defense at least :) )

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

As opposed to the (3/2/1)+3 for defense on the key?

Kinect - Not a waste
 

We use the driverstation kinect as an "e-stop" in hybrid. It actually saved our turret from twisting for 15 seconds in one instance (gyro issue). Later it saved our robot from ramming the co-op bridge which was being held up by an opposing team. The kinect may also be used to delay qualification match shots since most teams will be shooting two to four balls in hybrid at IRI. It only seems to be a waste if you try to actually drive your robot with it for 15 seconds.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

Add Minibot towers at the end of each alley against the drive station (on the side of the field where there isn't a human player chucking balls. Same rules as last year, must score in the last 15 seconds. Points are based off the order you score in. But you can also score in hybrid.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

You are evil. I like you.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

The GDC already covered this in January, didn't they?

Q: What is the definition of immediately? Suppose that 7 balls are scored in rapid succession. Each inbounder may hold 2 balls at a time, which means that the ball coral cannot be emptied immediately. So, how fast do the inbounders have to empty the coral to be considered "immediate"?
A: In that scenario, the Alliance would need to rectify the situation to be in compliance with all Game rules as quickly as [sic] safely as possible.


I like the idea of limiting the time in which you're allowed to balance, though at IRI I expect it will be largely self-limited. Still, some kind of bonus for shorter time to balance would be cool and probably make matches eve with more exciting. Not sure about scoring system implementation, though.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

Thanks!! I came up with the idea because over the weekend, a few vets and myself were discussing our favorite games and we all agreed on 2004 because there were so many ways to score. So, lets add some new ways to score!

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

If you want minibots why not a mini-bridge with extra points if your minibot balances on the mini bridge :rolleyes:

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

My only rule change is this one. I would like to see a penalty for ANY balls in the player station greater than 6 (i.e. eliminate the "return as safely as possible clause). If a team wants to hold on to 6, then they should know they're playing with fire. If a team lines up to shoot, they better start inbounding. The only exception would be for the first 5 seconds of teleop (in case some alliance scores more than 6).

I think this would keep the offense flowing.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

Ah, i hadn't seen that. Thanks!

What i really intended this for was for situations where 7 basketballs were scored super duper quickly. But i agree completely with the "playing with fire" part.
-Duke

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

I'd say make those kickballs or dodgeballs. They fit almost perfectly in most systems.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

I think it would be really interesting if every robot was able to pre load 3 balls for autonomous.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

My Idea for Qualification balancing:

- Toss out the whole coopertition bit. Let's be honest; Coopertition has no place at IRI.
- Allow triple balances during Qualifications. I personally think having separate game rules during Eliminations vs Qualfications is stupid... They should be the same game.

Also, I think trolling and side-hanging (118) should be legalized... trolling is quite a feat and I think it presents a challenge worth points... since most troll bots couldn't do much with the balls*, its a reasonable trade off.

* At IRI, one could find a way...

Also, I think that it should be made legal to use the 6 Autonomus balls in any way the alliance sees fit, as long as no bot has more than 3 in the bot any given moment... so 3 + 3 + 0 and 1 + 3 + 2 would be legal configurations

I agree that hail mary shots deserve more credit... just not so much that they become like the supercells were in 2009.

I also agree that the kinect needs axed... Useless.

On a last note, I am not sure if it would fit in but I think it would be cool to revive "best play of the day"...

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

Yes. When I saw 118 at Alamo I thought "Yep. That's illegal but very very cool. IRI should allow them to do that. IT would be quite a show."

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

I hated the idea that a ball shot out of bounds was given back to the alliance that shot it. I like this idea.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

I really hope you don't mean that Coopertition is just a silly game element that can be pulled out of FIRST...

Perhaps you could make a case that the Coopertition Bridge is just a silly game element that doesn't belong at IRI; however, even that would make me wonder why you think it doesn't belong at IRI... About the only thing I could see is because you think that IRI (unlike everything else in FIRST) isn't about Coopertition... rather it's a no-holds-barred fight amongst the best robots to crown the champions. That simply isn't true. IRI seeks to invite the very best robots to play the FIRST game, achieving the highest level of play, while keeping in place the FIRST atmosphere.

Really though, I don't understand the antagonism against ranking teams better that can consistently work with their opponents to balance the center bridge. I think that at IRI (with the strong, deep field) Coopertition balances will be the norm, hence why I'm in favor of reducing the double Coop balance to 1 point, and allowing a triple Coop balance for 2 points. This ups the amount of skill and effort required to achieve the same boost in rankings. I wish that the norm I foresee at IRI (working together to accomplish a single goal) was so easily achieved by all...

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

I guess so do the regionals because both regionals my team attended(weeks 2 and 5) everytime a ball went out of bounds it was placed back in the field, not in the corral.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

Second on the "shot out of bounds goes into the corral" idea! Makes it very much more in keeping with "real" bball play.

Think that might tweaked to just be those that go out behind the endline, not those that fly out over a sideline for whatever reason. Harder to figure out whose ball it should be, and there aren't any inbounders on the sides. Keep the stock rule in play for the sidelines -- put it back on the field close to where it went out. Sort of like lacrosse... hmmm... game idea? :-)

Definitely an IRI flavor rule!

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

Also the field should be 68 teams- to stick with the basketball theme.

Re: IRI - Dates, Info and Rule Ideas
 

I think you meant "I don't like the Coopertition bridge."

Coopertition is not just a game element, it's not just a bridge, it's not just a ranking point. It's part of the core values of FIRST.

Coopertition is the teams who see their opponent in the finals is broken... and then walk over with the part they need.

It's the spirit of the FIRST Community. It's how we do things here.

If you don't like the Coopertition bridge, that's fine. Quite a few people don't. However, Coopertition itself should certainly have a place at all FIRST events.