Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

...someone gave the kid negative rep. for this? Really?

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

It seems like the only reliable way to get negative rep here, aside from blatantly breaking the rules, is to suggest that students should do more and mentors should do less.

Anyway, after watching some drive teams from the field reset position, I've changed my opinion slightly. If a team comes together, as a team, and decides that it would be best if one of the mentors on the team should be the drive coach, well, that's great. Really, I have no problem with that. But when the same mentor is the one that decides the strategy, and turns the robot on, and stands next to their driver in the question box, and works with the FTA, and basically looks like they'd drive if they were allowed to, well, I certainly don't think that's a good sign. When adults are trying to affect as much as possible the one job on the team the rules reserve for students, what does that say about the rest of the team?

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

Dude, where have you been??? It was was great seeing you this past weekend!

I have to agree with that point, to a certain extent.

I understand this as well. However, my firm belief is that this is entirely about the students. My job as a mentor is to make sure that I have taught them all I can about the game and objectives, and then it's up to them to do the rest. Kind of like raising your children. You can only teach and show them so much, and then it's up to them to make the right decisions.

But in reality, it's up to each team to decide who the coach will be. I do see a lot of mentors on the field.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

After many years in FIRST as a volunteer and mentor, in roles that kept me mostly out of the field lights, I was asked by my rookie team last year to serve as field coach in their first-ever competition. I was reluctant, but did coach a few matches before handing off the role -- it was filled by two other adults before the team persuaded one of the seniors to take it on. The senior coach was a much better fit for our drive team than I or either of the other adults had been. He coached about half the matches at that event, and all of the matches for the rest of our rookie season. 30+ matches in all.

This year, my team has gone almost exclusively with student coaches. It seems to work best for us.

Drive team is emphatically NOT my idea of the "full FIRST experience". The OP's comments to that effect simply reflect his perspective on FIRST -- how can experienced adult FIRSTers find fault with that? I was seventeen and thought I knew everything once, too.

If I don't see his rep turn green again in a few minutes, I will fix it myself.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

I am a "mentor" drive coach.

I turned the robot on almost every match, because our students were busy lining the robot up, finding good balls to pre load, or plugging in the controls. Flipping the power switch is a rather trivial task.

I used to stand near our driver in the question box so that I can hear what he says, and help him communicate his point more clearly the next time. I no longer do this, as I know he knows what he is doing.

I work with the FTA because our drive team students consist of all mechanical people. If there was any type of mechanical problem on the field, I can assure you that they would be the ones to fix it, I would probably just make it worse.

Our entire team knows that if I could drive the robot again, I would because it is so much fun. I think the same could be said about any former driver.

Many times this season, I wasn't a part of the pre match strategy discussions. Our driver and human player would take care of it, and then fill me in. I would then do a quick chat in the queue line with the rest of the teams to make sure everyone is on the same page.

Please don't make snap judgements of a team when you see them do things a little differently than you.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

I want to pick up on something Richard said earlier in this thread: drive team is definately NOT the be-all-end-all of the FIRST experience. We have had many students come to us with one purpose: to drive the robot. Some, when they realize that this will not happen immediately for them, leave us. Others stick around. Some of those end up on the drive team; others, for whatever reason, do not. This does not make their FIRST experience less, valuable, or less memorable, for them.

Two of our students in particular come to mind. One was on the drive team his sophomore year as a human player, but was not selected for the drive team his junior year. Although initially disappointed, he agreed to be part of our Chairmain's committee, working on both the written and oral presentations. I will never forget the elation he showed after our team's oral presentation. He came flying down the escalators, he and the other presenters felt that they had done so well. I asked him if that experience was on par with the feeling he got on the drive team, and he said unequivocally that it was. And when we ended up winning Engineering Inspiration, he knew that it was partly due to the impact they had made on the judging panel.

This year, we had a student come to us with the primary purpose of being on the drive team and/or pit crew. Instead, he ended up on our scouting team. Instead of leaving the team or bemoaning his role, he embraced it and ended up to be our lead scout, working closely with not only our scouting crew but with the other team we agreed to co-scout with. He enjoyed himself immensely, learned so much about the game and strategy, and made many new friends from our scouting partners. Not only that, his willingness to serve the team's needs bodes well for him being rewarded in the future by getting one of the roles he so desires.

Finally, we are one of the teams who uses a mentor coach. We are also, however, one of the teams who believes strongly that the students do a large percentage of the work building and repairing the robot. In our pit, students work alongside the mentors. It's the same on the field. We tried having a student drive coach; it just didn't work for us. This year I feel that we had the optimal situation; a drive coach who had been a FIRST student for four years in high school and a mentor for his four years of college. Being a little closer to the students age, he related to them extremely well and knew how to help them strategize without completely taking over. He was also excellent at keeping them loose on the field and having fun with them. It worked well for us this year, and I don't see that changing any time in the future for us.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

you have mentors for each sub team in your team right? just think of the drive coach as the mentor for the drive team

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

And that's why the students want to do it. Once I graduate this June, I know I'm not going yo be driving a robot again. But even if I could, there is no way I would come back and take it away from next year's team.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

Definitely an intriguing question from the OP.

I would go for the midway point where your coach is picked to best fit the needs of your team.

For us, our drive team consisted of
Human Player: excels in athletics and mechanical
Driver: excels in mechanical and communication (judges, alliances).
Operator: excels in programming and design

For us, the best addition to our team would be someone who excelled in strategy. This way, he/she could coordinate with our alliance partners, and give the drive team high level instructions to maximize our [alliances'] score.

Our best pick was a college freshman, who had been a long standing member of our team as a designer, presenter, driver, coach (yup, we are short-staffed) in previous years. He had come back this year to help us with mechanical engineering stuffs, but since he was also well-versed in rules and strategy, we asked him if he would be our coach.

If there had been a better choice (student or mentor) at the end of the build season, we would have gone for him/her.

In the end, we had a great time, and I felt like our team had an outstanding performance. And I definitely didn't hear anyone complaining that they didn't get the FIRST experience they deserved. Why? Our team made the decision together, in the mind of what would best suit our team.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

Will,

If you have the time, I would suggest going back and re-reading the archived threads on this topic. Although they invariably crash and burn at the end, many valid points supporting both points of view are presented in those threads. That said I am fine with new discussion on the topic.

Our team has used mostly student coaches from 2000-2008, and mostly an adult coach from 2009-2012 (as you should know well by now :)). We have had some great seasons with both arrangements. There are numerous reasons for the shift, and I would love to talk to you about them at the MAR Championship. Suffice to say, for us, putting an adult in the booth has as much (if not more) to do with interacting with alliance partners as it does for our own robot's coaching.

Jared

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

Considering that he has not been inflammatory in the least bit he certainly doesn't deserve negative rep. Pointing him in the direction of previous threads is the most severe reaction from his inquiry if for nothing else so he can get the answers he seek from some of the best FIRST has to offer on their perspective on the subject.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

It's pretty clear that things can go any which-way on this topic.
Mentors, students... Teams with either as a coach have had great success. You can't attribute success to mentor coaches like 111, 33, 217, etc. when teams many great teams have all used student coaches to great effect. Coaches should be decided by the best person for the job. If it's a student, or a mentor, then that's that.

I'm personally of the opinion it should be a student. This organization is about inspiring the students, and I understand that that comes with the mentors being the ones who try their best to inspire, and thus having a mentor coach seems to fit the ideal of FIRST perfectly (The mentor instructs, the students act), but it just seems right to me that a student coordinates the creation on the field. As someone who is looking into mentoring new teams soon, I'd love the opporunity to coach a team. But my rule for myself is, should I be asked to coach, I won't coach a match unless there is no student willing to do the job.

That's just my 2 cents. In the end, whatever everyone agrees on and whatever makes everyone happy is the best decision.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

Leeland, I think you meant "unless there is no student willing to do so"

I would tend to agree with you on that one. I personally am in favor of the student side. In this case, I do prefer the student side but I understand and support the mentor side as well. It truly does depend on the team. I would love to keep coaching after I leave, but I also feel like doing it as a student makes it more meaningful to me because I may not get the opportunity again. I am in no way the perfect coach, nor do I claim to know everything. I do, however, work as hard as I can to become the best I can be, and some of the great mentor coaches have inspired me to do so. I have to say this thread has been pretty excellent in keeping discussion civil, as this topic usually gets out of hand.

There are valid points on either side, which is what the debate usually boils down to. The best comment on the thread was "live and let live." Each team has their own system and their reasons for it. You can disagree if you want, just dont accuse them of "doing it wrong" (not that anyone is yet, just, for future reference)

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

Just for clarification, 148 and 1114 have mentor coaches not student coaches, although Ricky Q and Commander probably will thank you for thinking they are still high school students.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

This season is my first season participating in FIRST. Prior to FIRST, I'd been involved with BattleBots, where it was nearly unheard of to see a mentor as a Coach.

Our team chose to allow a senior to take on the role of Coach. It seems that the person who took on the responsibility - and the drive team, for that matter - were up for the responsibility.

Personally, I didn't want to drive or coach. I'd be terrified. Despite not driving, I feel as though I had an extremely fulfilling experience. I can't wait again for next year.

I believe that this decision is up to each team to make. I would assume that the decision of each team depends greatly on that team's dynamics. On Team 23, a small group of students worked day in and day out, closely with mentors to get the job done. This led to the decision to have a student coach.

Dom.