Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

As a member of FIRST Team 1218 for the past four seasons and our driver for the last two, the experience that I have had with FIRST has inspired me to pursue a career as an engineer. This program has gripped me like no other activity I've been involved with because being on the drive team has given me a chance to see the benefits of the long hours spent in the build season. Being a member of the drive team for two seasons has made me feel an enormous sense of responsibility for the success of the team and driven me to higher levels of dedication than my first two years.
This experience makes me wonder, why is it that mentors are allowed to act as coaches on the drive team? One of the biggest problems faced by teams is the limitation on the number of kids that are able to take a role in actually controlling the robot in competition and it seems like allowing mentors to fill the position runs the risk of displacing kids that would otherwise be able to get the full FIRST experience. This is not an attack on teams that use mentors as coaches but rather an attempt to understand the logic behind this exception.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

search function yields threads where this has been debated at length...:D

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

Conversation on the topic seems to have died down and I think it's an important issue that should be revived.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

The discussions died because the horse just won't get back up.

The consensus at the end of each of the threads is: What works for your team, works for your team. Great. What works for my team works for my team. Great. Let's not impose our will on other teams where it's not necessary or invited. The logic behind both paradigms is discussed at length in the aforementioned threads.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

This has been a hot ticket item for years. I personally think that it is ok for teams to have a mentor as a coach. It's the same as a mentor on any mechanical sub-team. If he is showing you what to do and how to do it, why does it matter if it's in the pits or on the field? If you look at high powered teams that have mentors as coaches, they are also great mentors. Teams like HOT, Wildstang and MOE come to mind fast. Don't take it the wrong way that they are coaches, it just works on some teams especially when the coach is a great mentor. Also, think of all the matches that a mentor has seen and all the input he can now have in the coaching role. I've tried to implement it on my team for awhile, but getting buy in from others is tough :)

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

Every team is different and has a different dynamic. Many times the coaches on the field are former students who were drivers in the past. This helps because the coaches understand what being on the flight crew is like and the pressure that comes a long with their role(s). They have more experience and are better able to handle situations than many students.



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Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

Because mentors are part of the team as well? It's not just the students that need to be inspired.

Also, I was "behind the glass" once, over the course of my 6 years in FIRST. But I'd still say that I got the "full FIRST experience." A driver does not an inspired student make.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

It seems to me that when the mentors get involved with the drive team they take away from the students. If you're telling the students exactly what to do in the matches then what's the point of even having the students drive the robots? Why not just let the mentors take over? Having mentors coach might make your team more successful but since when is the focus of the competition on winning matches?

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

Since it is a competition, the focus is on winning matches whenever you're on the field. Any time you're not on the field, the focus is not on winning matches, true. But if it's a competition, and it is, how are teams not supposed to focus on winning matches?

I think a lot of it has to do with coaching style. The best coaches will tell the drive team high level stuff like "There's one in the corner, go get it and score 3's" or "Go balance this bridge" instead of giving turn-by-turn directions. Or they'll coach to the drive team's level. And you're telling me that a student coach won't tell other students exactly what to do in the matches? That's one I would have a hard time believing across the board, though for individual student coaches I could certainly believe it.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

I think your comment is more in line with the role of the coach as a position and less what mentors actually do. Are you saying that student coaches telling student drivers exactly what to do is better then mentors doing the same thing? In both cases the coaches "might as well take over." And if you're suggesting that students would be less pushy then mentors, then I'd say you don't know too many competitive students!

Side note: the focus of the competition is to win. That's why winners get trophies. But the focus of FIRST is inspiration. Competition and FIRST are separate entities that have different goals. Be careful not to get them confused.

EDIT: Eric beat me to it...

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

Our (rookie) team has definitely prospered under having a mentor coach, they were previous drivers, and know a lot about the game and rules. I think the idea of complete student driving, inbounding, and coaching works for some really experienced teams. I think however for some teams having a mentor around in case a chain pops off and you need to fix it in the queuing area, or some other disaster happens, is good. FIRST inspires kids on and off the field. Driving is a great opportunity, but I think some kids just the same rush watching, designing, coding, or building the robot.

This is of course coming from my limited time in FIRST, but from what I have seen mentor coaching isn't depriving students of coaching time. Having multiple drivers is also a solution, if getting as many students behind the glass is the goal.

Thanks

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

I don't understand that sentiment at all. Mentors add to the process. That's the very foundation of FRC.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

Different teams have different ideas on how best to accomplish the goals of FIRST. FIRST HQ has purposely remained quiet about which is a preferred way, and has left it up to individual teams to best determine how to run themselves.

Thus, there is no right way or wrong way, only different ways. What works for one team does not necessarily work best for another.

This topic (among several others) come up every year on Chief Delphi. Every year both sides present exactly the same arguments (if you search, every argument or opinion posted in this thread will have been posted multiple times already), and every year the thread either spirals out of control into a unproductive, name-calling flame war and is locked... or both sides agree that there are different and equally acceptable ways to run a team.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

Oh look, it's this thread again... :rolleyes:

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

Agreed. Unfortunately, not only is the horse beaten to death repeatedly, it usually ends in a big fight between the sides that involves arguing, anger, hating on teams and generally un-FIRST-like conduct.


Speaking from 2 years of experience, I would like to say the following:

SparX believes in having students as the Drive Coach. I have done so for this year and 2011 and cannot express how much the experience has helped me grow as a team member, leader, and, well....Coach. I think there is absolutely a benefit to having students in this position, as long as there are capable students to do so. In the past, we have had very capable coaches ranging in years of experience. Personally, I am incredibly thankfult hat this is my second year because I can use everything I learned last year to help me even further but I will admit that there is still way more out there that I can learn (if you are a seasoned pro at coaching, check out my other post). I love working with other students, I love doing what I do, and I support student coaches.

That doesn't mean I don't believe in mentor coaches. In the words ok Karthik, "Adult coaches are like the rockstars of the FIRST program." I thionk there is also a great deal to be learned from mentor coaches who have seen more battles than many students. In addition, mentor coaches are constant and do not graduate like students do. Team 1717 is a team full of seniors and the team changes every year. In this case, a mentor coach makes sense. There are many adult coaches I look up to as well for their ability, knowledge of strategy and general technique. FLR 2011: I got to play with 217. Paul is intense, but I definitely learned alot from him. IRI 2011: we had a match with 71 and 111 AT THE SAME TIME. The amount of experience between Hammond and Stang easily outweighed anything I could contribute, yet both teams were amazing to work with, and I got to coach alongside Raul. Same with 469 at IRI, and many of the mentor coaches I encountered (in any comeptition).

To sum it up: I have no quarrel with mentor coaches. They defintitely contribute something worthwhile. I am incredibly happy to have the position of Coach on 1126, and to have learned from many mentors. Please do not let this thread turn into a big hate-fest. As long as the kids are inspired, FIRST is working.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

Really, you should read the existing threads. If you care to, you can read these threads to understand the perspectives you ask about.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=67426
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=77390
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=91144
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=93881

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

Count me in the mentor does not belong on the drive team camp. I can see exceptions but not many. If you don't like it, I am not on your team & am not going to come & take your birthday away. :)

One issue I have seen is some (by no means all) mentor coaches expect the alliance partners defer to them because they are mentors when in reality they are just a partner drive team coach. Not to say that student coach act badly on occasion as well.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

Not all mentor coaches are the same. My driveteam has thanked me and our other drive coach multiple times for coaching them in matches. They have thanked us for guiding them.

Will, let's talk directly at the MAR Championships about this if you would like. I will show you multiple cases of driveteams who love their adult coaches. (including 341)

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

There is indeed a wrong way. Teams that focus on what other teams are doing wrong are doing it wrong (no, this statement is not lost on me, I couldn't come up with a better way of saying it). Basically, focus on you and your team and impact your students to the best of your abilities. Don't worry about other teams, they are doing what they feel is best.

Live and let live.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

This summarizes this topic perfectly.

-Brando

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

The whole goal of FIRST is to get students working side by side with mentors and engineers. The more you take engineers and mentors out of these areas on the team you are really hurting the growth of your students and the passing down of knowledge. This doesn't mean coaches and mentors need to be everywhere but you get the idea.

In short, it comes down to your team and what works for you. If this was really an issue, FIRST would make a rule about it.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

I''ll through my hat in ring here because I'm right on the edge of switching this up.

I started as a student in FIRST in 2003 and I had a bad experience with an adult coach. Since than every team I have been a part of has had a completely student drive team. However they also had the luxury of experienced students who could be drive team coach. I'm coaching a new team this year and none of the students have had that much experience (we're only a sophomore team). At lone star this week don't be too surprised if I'm on the field for at least the eliminations matches. I really don't want to be because I've always fought for student coaches on my teams but right now I feel like that stand is stopping my team from excelling and I would never want to do that either.

Will see how the event plays out and it will probably be a decision made by the drive team if they want me there or not, but before last week I had told them that I wouldn't coach when they asked but I'm leaning a lot further to doing it.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

I completely agree with this. I have no problems if you have a student as drive coach. I do have a problem if that team tells my mentor field coach and strategist that they only want students present for strategy discussion and match planning. Please don't do this.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

I was heavily involved on my team, especially directly in working with the robot. I was never on the drive team. Why? Other students were simply more qualified. I tried out for the spot and it really just wasn't my thing. I much preferred hanging in the pits, talking to judges and scouts, and then wandering over to the stands to watch our matches when I could. I don't think I got anything less out of my experience because I was not on the drive team. In fact, because I was not on the drive team, I was able to be a Chairman's Award presenter for my team (after a conflict between our Chairman's presentation time and a match at CMP in 06, we decided it was probably best to not have drivers also present Chairman's), which was another great honor and led to me being able to be a representative for my team off the field while my friends and teammates were representing us on the field. I sometimes acted as "drive coach" during off-season events, but, by that time, our drivers didn't really need much coaching and I was really just there as a placeholder.

This. Again and again this. This is also something that's brought up in threads about student-built robots. Mentors are there to be involved with the team. They're not just babysitters. As it's been said over and over, let teams do what works for them and just worry about yourself. We have had the same drive coach for many, many years. It works well for us. So we leave it as is.

I wish teams would stop criticizing others for the way they choose to run and organize their teams. I see so many posts on here calling out other teams for not being fair for doing things that are within the rules. A lot of times it has to do with such teams being more successful. Maybe, just maybe, they are the ones getting it right. Everyone has every opportunity to have a mentor act as a drive coach. It's not like they're sneaking around to get mentors on the field. So relax.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

Please take the above post to heart. There have been numerous threads in the past that address this topic.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

Once again I tried to make this thread focus on the benefits that coaching can bring to students rather than on the drawbacks of having mentors in the role. This is not an attack on any specific team and is merely what conclusions I can draw from my experience in this program. While being on the drive team isn't necessary for every student, I know that it can make a student's experience far more meaningful. The coach on our team was a fringe member of the team before he was given his new position at the beginning of the year and now he's one of the most involved students we have.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

As a fairly involved mentor, I believe mentors should NOT be drive team coaches. If this is truly about engaging and teaching students, what greater opportunity for them than by having them function as coach, collaborating with alliance members, etc...on the field.
Over the years I have had to become more involved with our drive team, not to direct the drive team, but to intervene and serve as a buffer to overly zealous coach/mentors from alliance teams. Those mentors "have the strategy" and too often are focused on dominating student coaches and telling them how to win the match, rather than listening, discussing and teaching.
If it is about winning...than mentor coaches maybe the better pathway. If it is about teaching and learning, let the students coach!

It goes beyond coaching though. Too many times I see mentors (aka Woody Flowers nominees) become the center of attention on their teams. They lead the cheerleading, they are first on the field to recieve metals and trophies...
Don't get me wrong. Mentors are a critical and vital part of FIRST and inspiring students...,but they need to be careful not to make this too much about them, but about the students. There is a balance, but perhaps one element out of balance is the drive team. Let the students coach!

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

This is a sentiment that I can definitely relate to as I see no problem with young teams having mentors as coaches to mitigate the shock students experience in their early competitions. I merely feel that student members of the established teams could really benefit from the experience of coaching.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

This topics comes up on an annual basis.
Maybe they should make one of the older threads a sticky so anyone who feels they can add anything new to the conversation can go over the tread to see if there is a point to be made or if it has already been made.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

...someone gave the kid negative rep. for this? Really?

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

It seems like the only reliable way to get negative rep here, aside from blatantly breaking the rules, is to suggest that students should do more and mentors should do less.

Anyway, after watching some drive teams from the field reset position, I've changed my opinion slightly. If a team comes together, as a team, and decides that it would be best if one of the mentors on the team should be the drive coach, well, that's great. Really, I have no problem with that. But when the same mentor is the one that decides the strategy, and turns the robot on, and stands next to their driver in the question box, and works with the FTA, and basically looks like they'd drive if they were allowed to, well, I certainly don't think that's a good sign. When adults are trying to affect as much as possible the one job on the team the rules reserve for students, what does that say about the rest of the team?

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

Dude, where have you been??? It was was great seeing you this past weekend!

I have to agree with that point, to a certain extent.

I understand this as well. However, my firm belief is that this is entirely about the students. My job as a mentor is to make sure that I have taught them all I can about the game and objectives, and then it's up to them to do the rest. Kind of like raising your children. You can only teach and show them so much, and then it's up to them to make the right decisions.

But in reality, it's up to each team to decide who the coach will be. I do see a lot of mentors on the field.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

After many years in FIRST as a volunteer and mentor, in roles that kept me mostly out of the field lights, I was asked by my rookie team last year to serve as field coach in their first-ever competition. I was reluctant, but did coach a few matches before handing off the role -- it was filled by two other adults before the team persuaded one of the seniors to take it on. The senior coach was a much better fit for our drive team than I or either of the other adults had been. He coached about half the matches at that event, and all of the matches for the rest of our rookie season. 30+ matches in all.

This year, my team has gone almost exclusively with student coaches. It seems to work best for us.

Drive team is emphatically NOT my idea of the "full FIRST experience". The OP's comments to that effect simply reflect his perspective on FIRST -- how can experienced adult FIRSTers find fault with that? I was seventeen and thought I knew everything once, too.

If I don't see his rep turn green again in a few minutes, I will fix it myself.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

I am a "mentor" drive coach.

I turned the robot on almost every match, because our students were busy lining the robot up, finding good balls to pre load, or plugging in the controls. Flipping the power switch is a rather trivial task.

I used to stand near our driver in the question box so that I can hear what he says, and help him communicate his point more clearly the next time. I no longer do this, as I know he knows what he is doing.

I work with the FTA because our drive team students consist of all mechanical people. If there was any type of mechanical problem on the field, I can assure you that they would be the ones to fix it, I would probably just make it worse.

Our entire team knows that if I could drive the robot again, I would because it is so much fun. I think the same could be said about any former driver.

Many times this season, I wasn't a part of the pre match strategy discussions. Our driver and human player would take care of it, and then fill me in. I would then do a quick chat in the queue line with the rest of the teams to make sure everyone is on the same page.

Please don't make snap judgements of a team when you see them do things a little differently than you.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

I want to pick up on something Richard said earlier in this thread: drive team is definately NOT the be-all-end-all of the FIRST experience. We have had many students come to us with one purpose: to drive the robot. Some, when they realize that this will not happen immediately for them, leave us. Others stick around. Some of those end up on the drive team; others, for whatever reason, do not. This does not make their FIRST experience less, valuable, or less memorable, for them.

Two of our students in particular come to mind. One was on the drive team his sophomore year as a human player, but was not selected for the drive team his junior year. Although initially disappointed, he agreed to be part of our Chairmain's committee, working on both the written and oral presentations. I will never forget the elation he showed after our team's oral presentation. He came flying down the escalators, he and the other presenters felt that they had done so well. I asked him if that experience was on par with the feeling he got on the drive team, and he said unequivocally that it was. And when we ended up winning Engineering Inspiration, he knew that it was partly due to the impact they had made on the judging panel.

This year, we had a student come to us with the primary purpose of being on the drive team and/or pit crew. Instead, he ended up on our scouting team. Instead of leaving the team or bemoaning his role, he embraced it and ended up to be our lead scout, working closely with not only our scouting crew but with the other team we agreed to co-scout with. He enjoyed himself immensely, learned so much about the game and strategy, and made many new friends from our scouting partners. Not only that, his willingness to serve the team's needs bodes well for him being rewarded in the future by getting one of the roles he so desires.

Finally, we are one of the teams who uses a mentor coach. We are also, however, one of the teams who believes strongly that the students do a large percentage of the work building and repairing the robot. In our pit, students work alongside the mentors. It's the same on the field. We tried having a student drive coach; it just didn't work for us. This year I feel that we had the optimal situation; a drive coach who had been a FIRST student for four years in high school and a mentor for his four years of college. Being a little closer to the students age, he related to them extremely well and knew how to help them strategize without completely taking over. He was also excellent at keeping them loose on the field and having fun with them. It worked well for us this year, and I don't see that changing any time in the future for us.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

you have mentors for each sub team in your team right? just think of the drive coach as the mentor for the drive team

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

And that's why the students want to do it. Once I graduate this June, I know I'm not going yo be driving a robot again. But even if I could, there is no way I would come back and take it away from next year's team.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

Definitely an intriguing question from the OP.

I would go for the midway point where your coach is picked to best fit the needs of your team.

For us, our drive team consisted of
Human Player: excels in athletics and mechanical
Driver: excels in mechanical and communication (judges, alliances).
Operator: excels in programming and design

For us, the best addition to our team would be someone who excelled in strategy. This way, he/she could coordinate with our alliance partners, and give the drive team high level instructions to maximize our [alliances'] score.

Our best pick was a college freshman, who had been a long standing member of our team as a designer, presenter, driver, coach (yup, we are short-staffed) in previous years. He had come back this year to help us with mechanical engineering stuffs, but since he was also well-versed in rules and strategy, we asked him if he would be our coach.

If there had been a better choice (student or mentor) at the end of the build season, we would have gone for him/her.

In the end, we had a great time, and I felt like our team had an outstanding performance. And I definitely didn't hear anyone complaining that they didn't get the FIRST experience they deserved. Why? Our team made the decision together, in the mind of what would best suit our team.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

Will,

If you have the time, I would suggest going back and re-reading the archived threads on this topic. Although they invariably crash and burn at the end, many valid points supporting both points of view are presented in those threads. That said I am fine with new discussion on the topic.

Our team has used mostly student coaches from 2000-2008, and mostly an adult coach from 2009-2012 (as you should know well by now :)). We have had some great seasons with both arrangements. There are numerous reasons for the shift, and I would love to talk to you about them at the MAR Championship. Suffice to say, for us, putting an adult in the booth has as much (if not more) to do with interacting with alliance partners as it does for our own robot's coaching.

Jared

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

Considering that he has not been inflammatory in the least bit he certainly doesn't deserve negative rep. Pointing him in the direction of previous threads is the most severe reaction from his inquiry if for nothing else so he can get the answers he seek from some of the best FIRST has to offer on their perspective on the subject.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

It's pretty clear that things can go any which-way on this topic.
Mentors, students... Teams with either as a coach have had great success. You can't attribute success to mentor coaches like 111, 33, 217, etc. when teams many great teams have all used student coaches to great effect. Coaches should be decided by the best person for the job. If it's a student, or a mentor, then that's that.

I'm personally of the opinion it should be a student. This organization is about inspiring the students, and I understand that that comes with the mentors being the ones who try their best to inspire, and thus having a mentor coach seems to fit the ideal of FIRST perfectly (The mentor instructs, the students act), but it just seems right to me that a student coordinates the creation on the field. As someone who is looking into mentoring new teams soon, I'd love the opporunity to coach a team. But my rule for myself is, should I be asked to coach, I won't coach a match unless there is no student willing to do the job.

That's just my 2 cents. In the end, whatever everyone agrees on and whatever makes everyone happy is the best decision.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

Leeland, I think you meant "unless there is no student willing to do so"

I would tend to agree with you on that one. I personally am in favor of the student side. In this case, I do prefer the student side but I understand and support the mentor side as well. It truly does depend on the team. I would love to keep coaching after I leave, but I also feel like doing it as a student makes it more meaningful to me because I may not get the opportunity again. I am in no way the perfect coach, nor do I claim to know everything. I do, however, work as hard as I can to become the best I can be, and some of the great mentor coaches have inspired me to do so. I have to say this thread has been pretty excellent in keeping discussion civil, as this topic usually gets out of hand.

There are valid points on either side, which is what the debate usually boils down to. The best comment on the thread was "live and let live." Each team has their own system and their reasons for it. You can disagree if you want, just dont accuse them of "doing it wrong" (not that anyone is yet, just, for future reference)

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

Just for clarification, 148 and 1114 have mentor coaches not student coaches, although Ricky Q and Commander probably will thank you for thinking they are still high school students.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

This season is my first season participating in FIRST. Prior to FIRST, I'd been involved with BattleBots, where it was nearly unheard of to see a mentor as a Coach.

Our team chose to allow a senior to take on the role of Coach. It seems that the person who took on the responsibility - and the drive team, for that matter - were up for the responsibility.

Personally, I didn't want to drive or coach. I'd be terrified. Despite not driving, I feel as though I had an extremely fulfilling experience. I can't wait again for next year.

I believe that this decision is up to each team to make. I would assume that the decision of each team depends greatly on that team's dynamics. On Team 23, a small group of students worked day in and day out, closely with mentors to get the job done. This led to the decision to have a student coach.

Dom.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

My opinion is that the coach should be a student.

Having said that, I do wish that FIRST would allow mentors to train student coaches on practice day at a regional. It's very hard for a coach to get training (unlike the drivers). I don't understand why we can't have the two drivers, the student coach and a mentor coaching the coach on the field on practice day.

It's one of those questions that don't seem to get answered, kind of like, "Why are we shutting the playing field down at 4:30 p.m. on practice day when the pits are open until 8:00 p.m.? Meanwhile teams are waiting an hour or more to get 10 minutes on the practice field when we have the most beautiful playing field sitting idle.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

I think off-season events are also a great time to do this. We have the Rah Cha Cha Ruckus, and us folks on 1126 usually have 2 drive teams of people who are interested (all students). This is a great opportunity for them to learn. I somehow got to be a coach for this event in 2010, really enjoyed it and ended uo as the competition coach for the 2011 and now 2012 season. It's been an incredible experience for me, and defintiely one a student should be able to have. But that is how our team does it. Other teams do it differently, and it is important to respect that.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

I can speak from the student's perspective.

Here's my background: I've been driving since the Cal Games offseason of 2010. I've studied great drivers (Nick Lawrence, to name one), and great coaches (Karthik, Paul Copioli, JVN, Adam Freeman, etc.). I thought I knew how to coach, and to this day, I still do.

HOWEVER, knowing something is one thing, executing it is another. At the Cal Games 2011 competition, I was both a driver, and the coach (never at the same time). Looking back, I was a HORRIBLE coach. I'm not saying this as a generalization to all student coaches, but I was bad. I gave bad directions, didn't comprehend what was happening at times, and didn't have the maturity or driver respect to pull off a strategy.

When I drive, I'm fine. I can drive with or without a coach, but as I learned at the Silicon Valley Regional last weekend, I do so much better with a coach. An adult coach. I ensured this season that we have an adult behind the glass, and IMO it's one of the best driving decisions the team has ever made.

There are so many reasons why I now prefer adult coaches, I can't list them all. Does it take away from the student's experience? No! If anything, as a driver I felt as if I performed the best I ever had. Sure, a student could have been down there coaching, but we wouldn't have been nearly as successful as we had with our adult coach.


I'm not saying one is right or one is wrong. Like everyone else is saying, "it's what's best for your team". And while I can't speak for everybody, a good majority of teams prefer an adult coach, and for a reason.

If you would like more information on my experiences with an adult coach, and why I chose to have one over a student, feel free to PM me.

And please, someone post a link to all the other threads like this, and then close this one. It's going nowhere, like the others. :deadhorse:

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

Can someone please sticky the sentence, "Worry about what you do, not what other people do?"

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

I have to be honest, I feel that many times, teams who have heavily involved mentors are overly criticized. And it really irritates me. Saying things like "If you have an adult drive coach, I do not want to be part of your team" is actually incredibly insulting to me. You are passing judgement on our team without actually knowing how we operate outside of "Ooooh look they have an adult on their drive team!" So what? It works for us. Are you present at our weekly meetings, build sessions, strategy/scouting meetings, or in our pits? If not, please do not judge my team for choosing to have an adult coach. Don't come in here and tell us that we are wrong for what we do because, again, it works for us. Our success on and off the field should be enough of an indication of that.

I had an amazing FIRST experience when I was in high school. We had mentors help us out a lot, but I can say that I got a whole lot out of FIRST. I have talked to many students from other teams who did not have anything close to my experience (and, yes, some of those students were from both student-driven and student-and-mentor-driven teams). Who are you to tell anyone how to run their team?

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

Oh man... well, don't I look stupid? I need to double-check my facts. My memory clearly doesn't serve me as well as I like to believe it does :o

Thank you for the clarification Paul!

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

Much of this depends on training and learning. I wasn't stellar, and I'm still not great. Some of it depends on your Drive Team. If none of you respect each other, it won't work out. Luckily, I get along really well with our Drive Team both this year and last. I made bad calls, heck, I sent a mini-bot up the wrong tower because I didn't realize the other team had already done so and made a qucik decision to deploy on the tower we were closest to. Thhe result: a nice blob of smoking metal. The point is, we learn. What 1126 does is not the only way to do it, nor is the way you do it on 256. There is more than just "mentor or student." If anyone cares to correct me on this, please do so but I don't think anyone would be a great coach their first time doing it.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

I've been following this thread, and other similar threads from the past. I have finally decided to step in.

Here's my $.02.
Right up front, let me be honest. I am insanely competitive and I HATE to loose. Sometimes I get "overly involved", even though I am an adult (50+) and should have a bit more self control.

When I first started Mentoring, I LOVED to be on the field behind the drivers, involved and in tune. Coaching was not much more than keeping the drivers following the match strategy we had planned out.

I realized after a few years that I really didn't need to be back behind the glass and our students were more than capable enough to handle it.
So, now we utilize a game strategist who works with alliance partners in organizing every match's strategy. He makes sure the drivers and drive coach understand the strategy and alternatives that my need to be utilized.
During the match, the coach just directs the drive team what to do and leaves it to them to get it done. It is a simple chain of command that relies on the trust our team has in each other. We each play a role and trust and allow our team mates to perform theirs.

This is how our team likes to operate. We agree it works best for us. Is it for your team? I don't know, discuss it with your team. If you are reading into my comments that I am saying you should do likewise, then you are reading too much into my comments.

I now have just two jobs during a match: 1) Keep my mouth shut (no coaching from the side lines). 2) Take pictures.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

I love that this thread comes up every year so I can say the following:

1. Our team has a philosophy that students and mentors work together on every aspect of our team. Every aspect, including strategy and drive team.

2. I don't really care what your opinion is on the subject unless you are a student on my team. The students on my team disagree with me all the time and have yet to come to me wanting to drive coach. If they did, then I would entertain the idea. I promise that I won't tell your team that you should not have student drive coaches if you stop telling me to have student drive coaches.


Maybe you should go to your high school football team and tell them that a student should be the coach. I am sure they will entertain the idea.

Paul

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

after 9 years of staying out of this topic...im jumping in.


A mentor is there because it is assumed that he/she is more knowledgeable in an area than the students. So....why allow the students to make the same mistakes repeatedly? By having active mentors on the drive team and build team, it allows the mentors to correct students before a habit is formed.


I got tons to say but no one wants to listen to me :D

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

Paul, everyone who isn't the Thunder Chickens wishes they were the Thunder Chickens. You've done more to motivate 1551 to be more than they are than perhaps anything/anyone other than 340.

I know you don't care if the haters hate, but even so you should know that for every hating hater there's a dozen or more who look up to what you do and say, "one day, I will be them."

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

This topic comes up every year but it is also something that changes from year to year as FIRST and teams grow and evolve.

I am asked about this a lot by teams new and old and there really is never a good direct answer to give a team other than you'll figure it out for yourself. The majority of the community posters here know that it is something that works differently from team to team. In answering the question, I usually provide positive examples of all types of instances where students and mentors serve as coaches. The great thing about our programs is that each team can develop its own unique positives within their systems. I can't think of a team where anyone on that team would list students or mentors serving as drive coaches as negatives, at least without mentioning room for growth or improvement. So whether or not a student or mentor on a team is a drive team coach is totally up to that team.

Will, it's certainly not wrong to ask teams how they run and make different decisions. You know I'll talk to you about anything; 1218 is one of the friendliest groups in MAR. Feel free to ask anytime about 2729. In short, the drive coach is a continuation of the mentoring experience on our team. Through this experience, I hope to demonstrate to my students team work and communication with people outside of our team. The role is also one that bring consistency to part of the team that changes for us from year to year with 4 different drive teams in our 4 year existence. Lastly, the relationship between our drivers and the coach is exhibited when we go onto the field with the robot carrying equal loads. As all members of our team are, mentors are there to work with our students just as they are ready to work with us.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

Will,
It seems that you are taking unnecessary heat for asking a good question. yes this comes up every year the same as posts about the game, the rules, the bumpers. In reality there is only one reason. It works for that team. We believe very strongly in working side by side at everything. An adult mentor coaches our drive team. It seems to be working. Our students are engaged, inspired, doing very well in school, graduating, getting scholarships and degrees. If your team handles things differently and achieves the same results then both of our teams are working. If it works for you I wouldn't want it any other way. If you like our team and like the way it functions then come and ask me how we do things. If you don't, keep trying until you find a formula that works for your team. It doesn't matter how we get there, as long as we both arrive at the same destination.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

I'm following the "what works for your team" opinion.

I'll say that I'm the current drive coach for 1477, and am a mentor (although I get mistaken for a student a lot.)

I've worked with a lot of drive coaches, students and mentors alike, as long as they know the rules, and have a clean execution then they're doing a great job.

Best of luck to everyone!

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

I totally agree, students should be coaches, and the mentors should be driving the robots. All too often the mentors boss the students around. A student really should get the opportunity to boss the mentors around. Start the chant with me:
Mentor Drivers!
Mentor Drivers!
:D

In all seriousness, I think it is very wise of FIRST to allow this role to be either a student or a mentor.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

For our team, there really wasn't much choice this year.
Last year, we had a student drive coach. He didn't really do much — he didn't direct the drivers, but instead just stood there watching the whole time. But he's excellent at machining, so we placed him as the 24/7 pit manager and machinist this year. Thing is, though, our team is small enough that we really don't have any students to spare. We have the two drivers, the machinist, the PR manager, the mascot, the videographer, the general manager (me), the safety captain (this job kinda fluctuates from various members, depending on who plans on being in the pits mostly), and a couple of scouts. That's it. And this year, none of the students wanted to be the drive coach. So basically, our only qualified candidate for drive coach was our mechanical mentor, who used to be a coach for his son's soccer team. Normally we would let the other students decide.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

I love these threads and some of the discussions that occur. At the same time, I think there is a possibility that some posters are subdued, intimidated, or silenced - which is a shame in healthy discussions.

What if we created 1 thread for the pros of having mentor coaches and 1 thread for the pros of having student coaches. It might be a way to shine a new light on a subject that seems to fall into the trap of going round and round.

We could include the cons but not in a negative or accusatory way. It is possible to have a con that is just a statement, not an accusation. I think...

Just a thought.

Jane

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

To start this post, during 2007-2009 I coached as a High School Student. This year, I'm a mentor, coaching for the same team.

Looking back on my years as a student coach, I'm not going to lie, I learned a lot from interacting with other teams and getting a true understanding of the "little things" one needs to account for in this competition from field experience. As an awkward high schooler, I even developed more social skills because I was forced to work with groups of people I've never met before and of varying ages.

I will not dispute the positives that a high schooler can learn from coaching, but there are also many negatives from the experience. If something goes wrong on the field, who's fault is it? The Coach. If your teams human player commits a penalty, who gets chewed out by other drive coaches? The Coach.

If your team lost a match by two points, and one of the mentors on your team comes up to you and says "you should have done this" even though the mentor didn't think of what you should have done until 5 minutes after the match, displaying classic signs of "monday morning quarterback" who gets blamed? The Coach.

As a high schooler, I wasn't ready for the pressure that the position held. Now this doesn't mean that every high schooler can't do it, that isn't what I'm saying. But I was coaching students of the same age as me, if the strategy didn't work, instead of the drivers blaming the coach, they blamed themselves. It was difficult for me to put the weight of the drive team on my shoulders because I was just another student.

As a mentor coaching now, there is a difference in age between my drivers and I that allows for a certain level of respect. There are other factors such as experience, number of sandwiches I've purchased for them, and having to show that I put in more hours than them to create the "first one in, last one out" effect. But, when we lose a match, I can teach these young students not to blame themselves and put the weight of the matches on someone like me. By taking the pressure off of their shoulders, and putting it on a seasoned coached like myself, if we lose a match, we can spend time watching the replay to see how to improve, hit the practice field to try new things, and move on rather than sticking in the past.

Looking back on it now, I wish someone could have taught me not to dwell on past matches and move on. It hindered me as a high school student, but now that I'm older, and have experienced other failures in life, I understand when to move on.

Although 1 high school student loses the ability to learn something from the competition, another 3 are taught an even more important lesson. That is why I coach as a mentor.

--

Every team works differently. :deadhorse:

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

3397 is student driven, with mentors and coaches only stepping in when we ask them to. We rotate the drive coach position to any student who wants to try it out, and it works fine for us. We try to engage everyone on the team, and our mentors (all 4 of them) mostly help with repairs and bumper changes between matches. I have nothing against the mentors on the field, and I think that every team should be run how the team wants it to be run, mentors coaching or building the robot. If the kids feel inspired and have fun, I do not see a problem with how other teams get things done . My team, we go out to have fun, and we find fun in having our drive coach rotated, so that every student who wants to can see what it is like behind the glass. If a team decides a mentor coach is providing a better experience for that team, I do not think there is a problem with it.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

I'm not going to comment on anyone else's setup, but here's where 2815 is coming from:

-Since day one, we've had adult coaches. In our four years, one was a USC graduate student, two were undergraduate students, and one was a professional mentor (yours truly). Each of our regional championships was won with a different coach behind the glass.
-Most of our mentors aren't that much older than the kids they mentor. I see them develop behind the glass almost as rapidly as the kids.
-I've seen some rather overbearing coaches. An adult mentor is usually better equipped to block them in my estimation. (A year of college hardens you up.)
-Despite the age part, our coaches usually have their acts together marginally better than the students. In an event where a few seconds' poor planning can result in a bypass (or worse), we view this as a good thing.
-It (generally) serves to reinforce the partnership between USC and Richland One.
-At no point have we said "We're -never- going to put in a student coach". We're open to it if the right situation came along...but we don't see it happening soon.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

This is definitely something that comes with maturity and some students certainly have it. After having worked with Will and team 1218's drive team, I would say that they have it.

With the basketball theme in Rebound Rumble this year and the quoted text above, UCLA basketball great Coach John Wooden comes to mind and this quote by him comes to mind. "A coach is someone who can give correction without causing resentment."

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

i just think it is interesting how many people said "go read the other threads" but then made a long post in this one ...

:)

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

GREAT point.

A looooooong time ago, when dinosaurs roamed the earth and the robot controller was an abacus with a monkey at the helm, I was the drive coach for team 308. Back then, I used to always give the same speech to the drivers before the competition season began. Something like, "if anything goes wrong in the match, or if anyone doesn't like how the match was played, send them to me. I'll take all the blame and all of the heat for what went wrong. blah blah." I always believed in taking the heat off of the drive team - it seemed to help them relax.

With all of that in mind, do what makes your team work best.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

Thanks for this post, I'll try to be more intentional about doing this at CVR. Definitely seems like the right thing to do to take the burden off the (already stressed out) drive team.

I've had the pleasure of coaching the last two years on two separate teams. I think it's been a beneficial experience for all parties involved. I have a blast with the kids, get to keep things upbeat, meet with a lot of teams to talk strategy, and remind them constantly that it's only a game!

Talking strategy is super fun, especially when the coaches/strategists on the other teams in the alliance are students. You get to kinda mentor them too, by being a model of a good attitude and competent play-maker, and encouraging them to do the same!

I love coaching. I hope people don't resent me for it... :(

-Mike

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

Ike,
Going to IRI? Time to step up to bat buddy!

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

I was stuck in Yuma, AZ during the last IRI. Hopefully I will make it this year.

MARC also does a mentor match. I might see if I can get in on that one. I was Human Player in 2010 for a mentor match, and was absolutely horrible. I kept watching the robot as opposed to getting the balls out of the return slot.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

I remember those days. I was soo jealous of the Wildstang Monkey that understood sign language. It was pretty cool though to see a Rainbow Monkey that could sign "More Bananas Please".

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

Hey, be nice to Al, he could sign way more than just that. ;)

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

I can, I have, I will.

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

Other than re-iterating what has been said in this thread, and adding my "do what works for your team" statement, I want to give some props to Will and 1218! We were on the their alliance in DC this past weekend, and he and his team are a great group to work with!

For our situation, our Drive Coach is a mentor, but had been our Driver for a number of years, and then became the Drive Coach when he was in college. I felt it was important to have someone who can understand what they are going through, mature enough to handle the pressure, is seen as a leader to the Drive Team, but can also handle any "blame" when something goes wrong. At the Chesapeake Regional, my driver made a "poorly choosen" mistake, that cost us the match. The look on his face after he realized what he had done showed he was crushed. I reviewed what the appropriate decision should have been and told him that we would get it the next time. In DC, another poorly choosen decision was made, again costing us a match, the only one we lost during qualifications, again we had another opportunity for a discussion on what the best decision would have been. In both occations, he was able to shake it off, because he knew he wasn't "in charge", the Drive Coach was, despite the fact that the student drivers make 90% of the decisions on the field. In both cases, I told him to just listen to the Drive Coach and to have fun. I know there are student Drive Coaches out there who can handle that pressure, and I know that Will on 1218 is one, but you are not going to find that on every team. We let the Drive Coach take the "blame" for issues, and give the credit for any success to the student drivers when we are successful. I don't want any of the students beating themselves up, any more then they already do, when we have issues. But again, that's how we do it, mileage may vary due to your driving conditions!

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

As a 10 year mentor I ask myself: what is the main goal of FIRST, to deliver the best possible game performance (ie use a mentor coach) or is it for maximum student learning, experience and exposure (even if it leads to not quite optimum results). In my mind, FIRST is nothing about delivering a competition, its about delivering a fun challenging structured engineering experience where the competition is the medium through its goals are delivered, not remotely the primary deliverable. The more the students experience, the more FIRST succeeds. It would be my very strong preference FIRST try a year with no mentor coaches on the field and see what happens. Chances are nobody will notice and hundreds if not thousands of students will benefit from the huge learning experience being a field coach.

I understand there was a FIRST mentor survey question on this topic earlier this year. It would be nice to hear the results from FIRST and their thoughts.

UPDATE: Thanks EricH below for pointing out there was FIRST feedback. I believe all our mentor team missed it due to information and thread overload. I would have appreciated it if FIRST had mentioned it in their update emails.

My comment re FIRSTs reply: Ouch talk about sitting on the fence :)

Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?
 

There was, and there was discussion when the results came out, back in June. I ran across the CD thread the other day, but don't remember where it is offhand.

http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...-field-coaches

Maybe if you'd picked one of the 2013 drive coach debates someone else would have linked it already. ;)