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-   -   Picking an Alliance Captain after they have already picked (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105414)

topgun 04-04-2012 17:37
Picking an Alliance Captain after they have already picked
 
Is an Alliance Captain allowed to be selected by a higher seeded Alliance Captain if they have already selected teams for their alliance?

Example: Alliance Captain #8 selects their first choice and second choice and we are proceeding back up to Alliance Captain #1 in the selection process. Alliance Captain #8 had not previously turned down an alliance invitation. Could Alliance Captain #N select Alliance Captain #8 as their second choice alliance partner?

Peck 04-04-2012 17:40
Re: Picking an Alliance Captain after they have already picked
 
Once you have an alliance partner, you can't be selected. period

topgun 04-04-2012 17:42
Re: Picking an Alliance Captain after they have already picked
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peck (Post 1154259)
Once you have an alliance partner, you can't be selected. period
Please cite the rule?

CalTran 04-04-2012 17:46
Re: Picking an Alliance Captain after they have already picked
 
It's a clever theory, but it's in a somewhat unwritten rule of FIRST. It is specifically countered, but not by a "rule," more of a guide line.

Quote:
5.4 Elimination Matches

At the end of the Qualification Matches, the top eight seeded teams will become the Alliance Leads. The top seeded Alliances will be designated, in order, Alliance One, Alliance Two, etc., down to Alliance Eight. Using the Alliance selection process described below, each team will choose two other teams to join their Alliance.
5.4.1 Alliance Selection Process

Each team will choose a student team Representative who will proceed to the Arena at the designated time (typically before the lunch break on the final day of the Competition) to represent their team. The team Representative for each Alliance Lead is called the Alliance Captain.



The Alliance selection process will consist of two rounds during which each Alliance Captain will invite a team seeded below them in the standings to join their Alliance. The invited team must not already have declined an invitation.



Round 1: In descending order (Alliance One to Alliance Eight) each Alliance Captain will invite a single team. The invited team Representative will step forward and either accept or decline the invitation.



If the team accepts, it is moved into that Alliance.

If an invitation from a top eight Alliance to another Alliance Lead is accepted, all lower Alliance Leads are promoted one spot and the next highest seeded unselected team will move up to become Alliance Eight.



If the team declines, that team is not eligible to be picked again and the Alliance Captain extends another invitation to a different team.

If an invitation from a top eight Alliance to another Alliance Lead is declined, the declining team may still invite teams to join their Alliance, however, it cannot accept invitations from other Alliances.



The process continues until Alliance Eight makes a successful invitation.



Round 2: The same method is used for each Alliance Captain's second choice except the selection order is reversed, with Alliance Eight picking first and Alliance One picking last. This process will lead to eight Alliances of three teams.

pfreivald 04-04-2012 17:46
Re: Picking an Alliance Captain after they have already picked
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by topgun (Post 1154262)
Please cite the rule?
Technically, there isn't a rule. But yeah, you can't do that.

jspatz1 04-04-2012 17:47
Re: Picking an Alliance Captain after they have already picked
 
The competition manual does leave some things to common sense. For example you cannot pick a team that is not at the event, but there is no actual rule against it.

Another way to look at it: Once you have picked, you are picked by the team you picked.

topgun 04-04-2012 18:03
Re: Picking an Alliance Captain after they have already picked
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jspatz1 (Post 1154267)
The competition manual does leave some things to common sense. For example you cannot pick a team that is not at the event, but there is no actual rule against it.
Not a relevant example. The team has to be seeded below you to be picked, which means they are at the competition.

Quote:
Once you have an alliance partner, you can't be selected. period
Quote:
Technically, there isn't a rule. But yeah, you can't do that.
I find it interesting that for all the lawyering people play with the rules, that this one isn't a rule, but just seems to be a common perception. But if someone challenged it (on the field during alliance selection) wouldn't the ref have to allow it?

JohnSchneider 04-04-2012 18:07
Re: Picking an Alliance Captain after they have already picked
 
Number 8 picks numbers 1 and 2....

lol no

jspatz1 04-04-2012 18:09
Re: Picking an Alliance Captain after they have already picked
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by topgun (Post 1154272)
The team has to be seeded below you to be picked, which means they are at the competition.
Ah, but it doesn't SAY that they have to be at the same competition. That's just a common perception.

pfreivald 04-04-2012 18:10
Re: Picking an Alliance Captain after they have already picked
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by topgun (Post 1154272)
I find it interesting that for all the lawyering people play with the rules, that this one isn't a rule, but just seems to be a common perception. But if someone challenged it (on the field during alliance selection) wouldn't the ref have to allow it?
I think that you'll find, looking through CD posts, that I'm not a rules-lawyer type when it comes to FRC games, so whether or not you find that "interesting" is of no concern whatsoever (to me at least). Play the spirit of the rules, every time, and it will serve you and your team well.

As for whether or not a ref would have to allow it: no, they wouldn't, because they're authorized to use their judgement when making calls.

There is a small, valid point here that the rule could be clarified to explicitly state outright that teams already on an alliance are not available for selection, but that's nearly as silly as stating that teams not competing at that regional (or teams that either do not yet or no longer exist) are not available for selection either.

dodar 04-04-2012 18:11
Re: Picking an Alliance Captain after they have already picked
 
This would allow for a situation like: 1 picks 2 and accepts, then all the selcetions go through and it gets back to 1 and they pick alliance captain 8. Then what happens? Does captain 8 wave goodbye to the 2 teams they just picked? No. Everyone looks at them like he just said 2+2=22. Why? Because you cant pick a team that is already with another team.

DampRobot 04-04-2012 18:11
Re: Picking an Alliance Captain after they have already picked
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by animenerdjohn (Post 1154274)
Number 8 picks numbers 1 and 2....

lol no
More like number three picks numbers one and two. Definitely not a "lol."

CalTran 04-04-2012 18:11
Re: Picking an Alliance Captain after they have already picked
 
Quote:
Round 2: The same method is used for each Alliance Captain's second choice except the selection order is reversed, with Alliance Eight picking first and Alliance One picking last. This process will lead to eight Alliances of three teams.
I think that the guidelines previously quoted, along with the emphasis on these ones inherently make this "strategy" frowned upon.

Kris Verdeyen 04-04-2012 18:17
Re: Picking an Alliance Captain after they have already picked
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by topgun (Post 1154272)
But if someone challenged it (on the field during alliance selection) wouldn't the ref have to allow it?
The ref is eating lunch. The emcee runs the alliance selection, and you should be nice to him. It does seem like an oversight though, huh?

EricH 04-04-2012 18:18
Re: Picking an Alliance Captain after they have already picked
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by topgun (Post 1154272)
I find it interesting that for all the lawyering people play with the rules, that this one isn't a rule, but just seems to be a common perception. But if someone challenged it (on the field during alliance selection) wouldn't the ref have to allow it?
No. He wouldn't. See below.

The FIRST thing to happen would be an immediate call to HQ, or whoever representing HQ is available, for clarification. Bill Miller, any GDC members onsite, whoever the ref and regional director need to get ahold of. This is because it's a situation that is not in the rules. (The fourth thing to happen would be that it would be in the rules in following years.)

The second thing to happen would be the announcement of the GDC ruling.

The third thing to happen would be either the picking team picking again, which is more likely, or a ton of confusion as the entire picking would need to be redone. Let's face it, if #1 picks #6 as the final pick, the #6 alliance has to have another team, or quite possibly the #7 and #8 have to move up, leaving the #9 team to move up and now they have to get picks...

And the final thing to happen is memory. Your team, if they insisted on challenging this during alliance selection, would be remembered for years as "that team that caused the big mess in the Magnolia Regional alliance selection" if it was successfully challenged. (And if it was unsuccessful? Everyone knows where the rule explicitly disallowing picking alliance captains who have already picked comes from for years to come.)


Of course, this is an easy tactic to defeat: All the lower-seeded captain has to do is say "We decline. As you can see, we already have an alliance." and that's that. That's been the de facto reason for years when someone who's been picked is picked again; it just hasn't been stated as such.

jspatz1 04-04-2012 18:21
Re: Picking an Alliance Captain after they have already picked
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfreivald (Post 1154279)
...but that's nearly as silly as stating that teams not competing at that regional (or teams that either do not yet or no longer exist) are not available for selection either.
I'd say "silly" is the operative word here.

Wetzel 04-04-2012 18:32
Re: Picking an Alliance Captain after they have already picked
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH (Post 1154287)
No. He wouldn't. See below.

The FIRST thing to happen would be an immediate call to HQ, or whoever representing HQ is available, for clarification. Bill Miller, any GDC members onsite, whoever the ref and regional director need to get ahold of. This is because it's a situation that is not in the rules. (The fourth thing to happen would be that it would be in the rules in following years.)

The second thing to happen would be the announcement of the GDC ruling.

The third thing to happen would be either the picking team picking again, which is more likely, or a ton of confusion as the entire picking would need to be redone. Let's face it, if #1 picks #6 as the final pick, the #6 alliance has to have another team, or quite possibly the #7 and #8 have to move up, leaving the #9 team to move up and now they have to get picks...

And the final thing to happen is memory. Your team, if they insisted on challenging this during alliance selection, would be remembered for years as "that team that caused the big mess in the Magnolia Regional alliance selection" if it was successfully challenged. (And if it was unsuccessful? Everyone knows where the rule explicitly disallowing picking alliance captains who have already picked comes from for years to come.)


Of course, this is an easy tactic to defeat: All the lower-seeded captain has to do is say "We decline. As you can see, we already have an alliance." and that's that. That's been the de facto reason for years when someone who's been picked is picked again; it just hasn't been stated as such.
I doubt that call even gets made. This is a what if question that doesn't have legs, and only gets bothersome after the third no gets talked around. Once a team has declined or is in an alliance, they are not available to be picked.

Wetzel

bduddy 04-04-2012 18:35
Re: Picking an Alliance Captain after they have already picked
 
You're right - there is no rule against it. At the same time, it's obvious by the rest of the procedure that that is not supposed to happen. Still, it couldn't hurt for FIRST to clarify the rules for next year...

Wetzel 04-04-2012 18:39
Re: Picking an Alliance Captain after they have already picked
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bduddy (Post 1154301)
You're right - there is no rule against it. At the same time, it's obvious by the rest of the procedure that that is not supposed to happen. Still, it couldn't hurt for FIRST to clarify the rules for next year...
While they are at it, they should clarify in the rules that you have to turn your robot on for it to work. This should be a higher priority to the rules clarification because many teams each year try to avoid turning their robot on only to be told by the field crew that it is required. This would prevent people from trying to leave their robots off.

Wetzel

Gray Adams 04-04-2012 18:42
Re: Picking an Alliance Captain after they have already picked
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetzel (Post 1154303)
While they are at it, they should clarify in the rules that you have to turn your robot on for it to work. This should be a higher priority to the rules clarification because many teams each year try to avoid turning their robot on only to be told by the field crew that it is required. This would prevent people from trying to leave their robots off.

Wetzel
We learned that it isn't required if nobody notices :(

jspatz1 04-04-2012 18:46
Re: Picking an Alliance Captain after they have already picked
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bduddy (Post 1154301)
Still, it couldn't hurt for FIRST to clarify the rules for next year...
It could hurt. The rules book is already a behemoth. There are 1,000 other obvious points that are not in writing. Do we really want kick-off day to be all of the same fun as reading through the IRS tax code?

CalTran 04-04-2012 18:47
Re: Picking an Alliance Captain after they have already picked
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gray Adams (Post 1154304)
We learned that it isn't required if nobody notices :(
Off topic of the OP but we learned that as well in 2010 in Oklahoma. The only match we lost, and were one away from being undefeated in Qualifications, was our Match 8, where we forgot to turn Trigger on...

kevin.li.rit 04-04-2012 18:53
Re: Picking an Alliance Captain after they have already picked
 
I recall this happening one year in during the second round, a team tried to select another seed below them (when it wasn't a serpentine selection). I think the response was something along the lines of "That team is the 8th seed and cannot be selected." The team trying to select them did it by mistake since they dropped into that slot.

Lil' Lavery 04-04-2012 19:01
Re: Picking an Alliance Captain after they have already picked
 
Common sense would also dictate you pick from the teams on the "Available" portion of the alliance selection screen. Once the #8 seed has started their alliance, they are no longer on that portion of the screen.

Cory 04-04-2012 19:03
Re: Picking an Alliance Captain after they have already picked
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by topgun (Post 1154272)
Not a relevant example. The team has to be seeded below you to be picked, which means they are at the competition.





I find it interesting that for all the lawyering people play with the rules, that this one isn't a rule, but just seems to be a common perception. But if someone challenged it (on the field during alliance selection) wouldn't the ref have to allow it?
No, because the refs aren't stupid.

BRAVESaj25bd8 04-04-2012 19:07
Re: Picking an Alliance Captain after they have already picked
 
Too bad you didn't post this a couple weeks ago. The GDC could have sent out an update saying it was legal and won the award for most concern caused by an April Fools Day prank.

DonRotolo 05-04-2012 20:39
Re: Picking an Alliance Captain after they have already picked
 
sigh. Patently absurd premise.


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