Re: TI and future Jaguars
 

Al,

you are correct, I don't know the history of IFI and First. Please fill me in?
Sounds like I may be missing out on some fun facts :)

Pains me to see how IFI charges $89/VIC for FIRST - (and they are now out of stock !) and $150 for a non-FIRST version.

Cheers,
Dean

Re: TI and future Jaguars
 

IFI doesn't make a lot on First related items. At one point they supplied First with the controllers, Spikes, control system and provided tech support at every event. They could have dropped Victor and Spike production a long time ago and been better off, I bet. They believe in the program.

Re: TI and future Jaguars
 

Thanks Al,

If that is so, we should also say thank you IFI - and please continue the support! And sorry if I may have offended the good folk at IFI.

This further solidifies the notion that there is no commercial market here. So it may be foolish to try and maintain a futile VIC vs. Jag competition. Maybe we should just forget a Jag-like controller and beg IFI to continue supplying subsidised VICs to FIRST.

VICs are nowhere near as nice as a debugged Jag, but they are workable.

Dean

Re: TI and future Jaguars
 

Actually, if I may add, it will be very sad to loose a Jag-like controller - I was amazed and made it a wow-educational opportunity that now we see a 32-bit microcontroller for each motor, whereas when I was their age a single 8-bit microcontroller was a big deal!

Hopefully this is just an anomally in the overall trend of having a micro in every object.

Dean

Re: TI and future Jaguars
 

FIRST is not asking us to compete on a mass production scale with anyone. Merely allowing us to provide a solution if we wish. We do not have to do anything.

I don't believe it is in IFI's best interest to bid.

Even if someone responds to that RFP/RFQ it will be unlikely anyone will be told.
It also is irrelevant to me because I'm moving forward regardless.

Re: TI and future Jaguars
 

Sorry I must post multiple times from this platform.

Then split the topic as I have no ability to do so. That in part is why this project must leave this forum.

The RFP/RFQ does provide a loose working framework for what we are proposing as an alternative.

Re: TI and future Jaguars
 

I'm moving forward regardless of IFI's generosity. The Victors are respectable products but the community can benefit from having choices. It would be tragic to stall choices and then find FIRST one day literally against the wall for choices.

Re: TI and future Jaguars
 

Brian,
You really need to read what other people post in it's entirety. My post about IFI is not a judgment on your project, it is merely my support for a company for which I have a great deal of respect. It was a dialog between Dean and myself. I think Dean understands that and has a little better understanding of the company.
Dean, thank you for your response. I am sure the folks at IFI smiled at your post.

Re: TI and future Jaguars
 

I actually did read what was written and it's entirety in a public forum. It's odd to have private conversations from a public soap box. It might give people the wrong impression of what you're attempting to communicate. Also if you note I didn't quote you when I responded.

I see no reason IFI, having little to any actively marketable competition to the Victor currently would be worried about this alternative project. It's unlikely that the costs of it will directly compete with the Victor especially initially. It also in no way reduces the value of their product.

In point of fact, the value for this sort of project to FIRST is fairly large. It offers the community empowerment to feel involved in the process. It offers FIRST the opportunity to be more self-sufficient. It offers students the insight into the process. It opens the door to other projects for the community with this as an educational effort towards how to make that work.

In point of fact, the rally of resources required for this project forms a basis to level the playing field for other projects of an electronic nature that could benefit FIRST, the Teams, the students and the community at large.

IFI's and TI's generosity in this matter is in no way reduced by this effort. FIRST encourages interest, curiosity and action in STEM related fields. These sponsors should be thrilled that they'll have a reduced burden. Additionally they should be honored that they carried this organization to this point to allow something like this to even exist.

Re: TI and future Jaguars
 

Brian,
My post needed no response.

Re: TI and future Jaguars
 

Still working on this but very busy right now working on tiny oscilloscopes. Will post back in a few days.

Re: TI and future Jaguars
 

After a brief search, it appears there are parts that would support a controller that could replicate the function of Jags, Vics, and even Spikes and that would be pretty bulletproof, including being housed in a non-ventilated enclosure and handling abuse up to and including reverse battery connection. An H-bridge using four of these IPB180N03S4L-01 and one of these TLE6284G would have a rating on the order of 180A @ 30V (at least). This includes shoot-through protection, short-circuit protection, undervoltage protection, and more. Mounting everything on a heat spreader should be one way to provide over-temperature protection, and it is possible to handle reverse-polarity by turning everything on and relying on the 40-amp breaker to trip (by turning on each of the FETs, resistance is lowered, along with power/heat dissapation in the controller).

This would need to be paired with a microcontroller to handle CAN, serial, PWM, safety, an encoder, PID, etc. The component count and costs should be doable and the size could be quite compact. The firmware really isn't that bad and could be done as a collaboration.

I know this is past the deadline and talk is cheap and I'm really just throwing this out for discussion or future consideration. The capabilities in this area seem to advance and there might easily be better parts or modules with higher integration out there, but this is a concrete data point, if nothing else. There are FETs with less than 0.001 ohm resistance, 60A * 60A * 0.001 ohm is only 3.6W! The real trick seems to be finding the right integrated pre-driver with all the features that would be ideal for this application.

Of course, costs are a big consideration and the modules would have to be manufactured somewhere, a contract manufacturer that would take this volume would probably be the major cost, but still -- seems doable. A team with the time (say starting a year ago) and the right resources might even be able to turn this into a nce fundraiser...

Re: TI and future Jaguars
 

If someone wanted a quick start to an improved H-Bridge, this TLE7181EM evaluation board would be a good way to get going. If anyone comes across similar alternatives, it would be great to share. This actually looks like a very good fit and gives an good idea of what can be pulled off the shelf...

Re: TI and future Jaguars
 

Sorry I've been so distant. Something larger than this for FIRST was tossed onto my plate and I'm moving very quickly with it. So rather than let this distract for the next week or so I need to continue to have my focus elsewhere. As soon as I finish with the documentation portion of that other project I'll release all the resources at the same time so we can move forward. Less chaos that way as I don't have any volunteers to help with the web development work.

In any event, the deadline to absorb the manufacturing and support for the Jaguar is irrelevant to this project. The Jaguar RFC merely serves as a footprint to draw information from. If someone has decided to move forward with answering that RFC it's also irrelevant. I am quite intent on making these units a reality for FIRST and even if my unexpected additional work load delays them too long to make this happen this year...I'm quite fine with delivering on it next year. I've sort of traded for actual production work to paper work at the moment.

The nice part of putting the H-bridge drivers on the high power module is we can produce different high power modules to deal with the advance of power transistor technology, while producing other control modules that don't by necessity have to go obsolete every time we change the transistors or H-bridge drivers.