New District Events for 2013?
 

With this week being the Michigan and Mid-Atlantic Championships, I figure it's as good a time as any to ask.
What if any new District models do you think will be adopted for next year?
California?
Texas?

And one more question, would you rather you be in Districts now or continue attending Regionals?
(assuming you're not in a districted system already :p )

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

California is coming, but not next year.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

Do you think another regional would come to California first?

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

There is another regional planned for next year.

-RC

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

I still can't decide if I'm for or against California having district events.

I can see why. Well 1) there are a lot of California teams and 2) it would be cheaper and there would be more events for teams.

But I think we need more regional competitions elseware. There are a lot of out of CA teams that rely on the CA regional competitions. There would probably have to be a Mexico Regional first (which honestly isn't that far away) and at least one more in the midwest. There are always a few idaho teams that come to CA, but another competition besides Utah is necessary.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

where is that? I'm thinking another in SoCal.

If southern california get's another, I wouldn't mind seeing one in San Francisco :D even though we have SVR and Sac so close.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

There is one being planned in the riverside area.

-RC

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

Are there many teams around there?

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

Ask rsisk. I can think of at least two off the top of my head, 2493 being one, and Riverside isn't that far from the L.A. area teams--figure a couple hours or so. Close enough that whether to commute or stay in a hotel will be a serious debate on some teams.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

Riverside! That will be awesome.


Here is the map from the SVR website of California teams:
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=...79df4 0&msa=0

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

There are roughly 12 teams in the Inland Empire area this year. We have been growing fairly quickly during the last three years (2 teams in 2008, 12 teams now). We have also had significant growth in FLL and some growth in FTC teams as well. We should also be able to pull teams from San Diego (1hr), LA (1hr), Vegas (4hrs), AZ (5hrs), and Central CA (CVR 5hrs).

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

Minnesota, Texas, and Ontario/Eastern Canada seem like potential areas for the district model, at least from an outside perspective.

I'd feel sorry for Wisconsin teams if Minnesota goes district, though. They'd be wedged between two district systems, and lose a lot of nearby regional options.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

Personally I would want an district system in CA. Would mainly to give us more events for play for not that much more money [3rd event only $500].
However I can see the issues with such a system if there isn't enough teams close enough...

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

If Hawaii had the "option" of participating in a California District Model, it would awesome.
Make one of the district events here in Hawaii, giving California teams an incentive to come here as well.

359 would still probably do the 1 regional outside of HI/CA as usual.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

From the perspective of my team in Norcal it looks good, we could go to SAC, SVR, and CVR. (and maybe CSC if we do well ;) )

It'd be a blast to go to 3 competitions and see the local teams improve.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

We'll def be making the trip down there. Especially if I can get Sisk to throw us a party :P

Glenn, we'd def come out there. We've been looking for a reason to. If regionals/districts got cheaper, we'd throw the saved money towards going to Hawaii!

-RC

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

I think what I remember reading was that they might include Nevada, Hawaii and I think another state so they might get more coverage... the championship event for that would be crazy!!!

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

RC,
well lets hope it happens and someday soon!
We'll be sure to pick Jim Beck's brain on the details for sure.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

For us in SD we would have no problem with flying up to attend all of these events, especially without the just $4000 reg fees.

Having more events to go to in my book is a good thing. Giving more teams the change to improve in between regionals.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

It seems like everyone here is in favor of the district system! I think it would be awesome if the average number of competitions most teams went to increased from 2 to 3. With registration fees low we could go pretty much everywhere in the district.

Plus, I've always been dying to go to the Hawaii regional

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

I'm pretty sure Washington State is going to a district model next year. I don't know if it will include Oregon as well, there's currently 96 teams in WA and 43 in Oregon... I got this impression after talking with our team's lead mentor/coach, as well as Kevin Ross at the Seattle Double Regional... Seems to make sense though, this year there were 3 regionals: Seattle Olympic, Seattle Cascade and Spokane, in Washington state, and there was the Autodesk Oregon Regional...

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

At the SCRRF Fall Classic 2011, Jim Beck that he was working with some people in our area(NASA-Dryden people and our head mentor) to get an event in Lancaster, CA as early as 2013.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

I will agree with Austin2046 on this one. The growth rate in Washington alone will likely force a district system in the Northwest very soon. In the 2007 season there were 17 teams in Washington. From 2008-2012 there were 8, 17, 10, 25, and 19 new rookie teams each year, respectively. Check my math but more then 450% growth in 5 years stretches the regionals in the area a lot.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

I can see MN going to district, although I don't know what the geographic spread of teams looks like in the state.

Yeah, it would stink. Double if WI and Midwest are same week again, or consecutive weeks like many other times!

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

A friend of mine who was at the DC regional told me there was discussion of a 'Capital Region' District encompassing what are now the DC, Chesapeake and VCU Regionals. Not sure of a timeline however.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

I was at that meeting and a district model here in the Capital Region is still at least several years away. The meeting was just to get a feel for what the district model is all about.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

There will be another Midwestern district by 2014.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

I've also heard rumblings about MD/DC/VA going to the district model. The three regionals are less than 3 hours apart (Richmond to Baltimore).

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

I see the midwest and California getting districts soon. Texas isn't able to do so yet because they don't have the volunteers for it.

I personally would like to see the Southeast US be a district encompassing Tenessee, Georgia, Alabama, and South Carolina. Peachtree this year had 60 teams, and that's with 18 rookie teams. That growth alone would make it so we need another regional in Georgia. South Carolina is experiencing a lot of growth as well, and so are Alabama and Tenessee. But that's a far way off, because there are other regions with more teams than us. :rolleyes:

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

Although it seems to be against what others are saying on this thread, I for one don't really want a district system for California. It seems to me like it would just make it a lot harder to get to Championships, and make us miss a lot more days of school (two/three district events, district champs, and then real Championships).

Personally, I really like they way things are now.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

This is an interesting discussion and being a FTC/FLL guy in Texas, I am intrigued but read nothing into that statement about what Texas will do.

What I am seeing so far is interest in multi-state region models. The tricky part then off course is deciding who/how to draw the lines. How does one organize and collect input from a multi-state region to decide such things.

i.e several folks posted positively about a CA region with some adding that including Hawaii would be great and then possibly Nevada. If Washington were then to become a single state district, how do teams in Oregon feel if a district is north and south of them that doesn't include them? Would there need to be a discussion between the Washington and California region organizers to include Oregon? These things get touchy very fast.

I'm just wondering how FIRST folks in the many regions can start to have these kinds of discussions across state/country lines?

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

Word on the street is that New England (CT, RI, VT, NH, MA, ME) has been and is looking to go to districts; but at this point I believe the earliest we'll see it would be 2014. I propose the name FiNE (FIRST in New England).

It's actually fairly surprising to me that the NE area has not gone to districts sooner, as the team density in the area and travel distances make a ton of sense.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

Let me preface my comments by stating I do NOT have any inside information on what may be happening in MN. These are my thoughts and ramblings only!! And I'm not awake enough yet this morning for this to be worth a whole $0.02, so consider this my $0.015 worth.

I can see us going district in a couple years, too. 2014 seems like a possibility. We need another regional first just to get more of a volunteer base trained.

The geographic spread of teams in the state is pretty even, except for the northwest portion of the state.

With 150ish teams and growing, we have the teams necessary, or will soon.

My gut preference would be to include the North Dakota teams, and at least northern Iowa and western Wisconsin, if not all of those states. I know the ND teams would hate to have to go back to driving through MN to get to an event.

If we included all of those states in a big district model, then the Milwaukee teams could still go to Midwest if they wanted to as an out-of-district event. There is already good team growth in the LaCrosse area, a district event there would spur even more, and draw teams from southern MN too. An event in Madison would help spur growth in an area that should have more teams than it does, and would draw from both Milwaukee and the western WI / southeast MN area.

We have to do something in MN. The three 60+ team regionals we had this year were too big, too hard on the volunteers, the venues are getting too crowded, and it's just not fair to the teams to ask them to compete against 60 other teams for a chance to win a spot at CMP when there are other regionals with only 40ish teams. If we grow to 175 teams next year it gets even worse. Adding one regional next year and going to ~50 teams per event doesn't really add any spots for new teams, we had about 190 between the three events this year. We really need to add two regionals next year to have any real capacity increase without keeping the number of teams per event higher. I'm not sure we can magically conjure up the funding and the volunteers to add two next year. A lower cost per event district model would sure help in that aspect.

I'd love to see a district model that would still allow say two "non-district" teams per event to come play, maybe at a reduced cost. We love having teams like Wildstang come up here and show us different ideas and ways of doing things, that's the one thing I would hate to lose with the district model.

Again, I am aware (as are a lot of other people) there is ongoing discussion regarding additional regional(s), but I don't know anything more than that. Sorry that this got longer than I intended when I started typing.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

Yeah, WI would be in an awkward spot for a district system, mainly because of our distribution of teams. I don't think we can justify a Milwaukee district, etc, because it would be "on the edge" of the region. Madison would probably be the central place, but then our second district would be in MN? I don't know exactly how districts work other than that you attend 2.

Then again, there are probably a lot more awkward geographical situations to come as FRC moves to districts.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

Ditto.

Most of the NE events are almost interchangeable to teams in terms of which ones to attend each year.

Theres about 150 teams total in MA, CT, NH, VT, ME and RI, about the same size as the MAR district. Geographically it would be larger, but still relatively small compared to somewhere like California.

-Brando

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

Better name: New England Robotics District. ;)

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

I think Georgia, Alabama, and Tennessee(at least the eastern half) would be a good district while North and South Carolina would fit in between that and the Capital District. Right now theres about 75 teams in the Carolina meaning we're about 10-15 teams from having enough for a small district system.

With a number of regions moving towards districts I'm surprised there hasn't been any discussion about an open districts system. My idea is that everyone would get two district events, one would have to be in there region but the other one could be at any district event in the country that has room. This would fix the problem for low density areas or remote areas like Hawaii and allow them to have a district system without having as many teams as a larger area like New England. They would only need to have one event and then the teams could travel anywhere they want for the second one.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

Perhaps there will be many districts by 2014-2015..............

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

Apparently the Boston FIRST director said that a new england district is going to be starting very soon, but the only thing is that the regionals in existence are GREAT, and many don't want to ruin that.

A problem I have with the district setup is that although we can compete more it means more travel!

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

I'm not sure if Ontario would go to a District model just yet, seeing that FIRST Canada is pretty set on expanding FIRST across Canada right now. Montreal is going to be a BIG regional next year (their growth has been phenomenal), and I think the focus should be to develop FIRST in Western Canada (one day I could see Calgary as a powerhouse region for FIRST).

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

FiNE:
MA: 57
CT: 41
NH: 30
ME: 10
RI: 5
VT: 3
Total: 146 Teams
Area: 72,000 sq. mi.
Density: .00203 Teams/sq. mi.

FiM:
MI: 190
Area: 97,000 sq. mi.
Density: .00196

Although I expected the densities of teams in New England (NE) and in Michigan to be similar, I wasn't expecting New England to be (negligibly) more dense, particularly given how sparse teams in Vermont and Maine are!

Regardless, I'd been expecting that New England would adopt a district system sooner than this... I think many in the nation expected they'd be next; however, I think the primary reason is what was posted above... the existing regionals are all established, well-loved, and well-funded!

The Connecticut Regional (I still think of it as the UTC Regional) has been around for a long time and has been popular and competitive. UTC has taken care of the bulk of the funding for many years (since its beginning?).

The Granite State Regional has been around since 2003 and has also been both popular and competitive. BAE Systems handles the majority of the funding.

I still think of the Boston Regional as being young, but its now celebrated its 7th year! Hosted at Boston University, it has a very nice venue that can be used due to BU's own generosity.

To me Harrington Auditorium will always be the home of BattleCry rather than the WPI Regional, but that event just finished its 3rd year!

Really, I think that New England would support a district system very well... allowing teams from Maine a closer district (Portland area?), for example. It'd free up dollars that BAE Systems has had to put towards the regional to be used directly on the teams.

Given that there'd be about 8 districts (146 teams * 2 events/team / 40 teams/event), I would see there being one in SoMaine (Portland <-> Portsmouth), one in "NoNH" (Lebanon <-> Concord), one in SoNH (Nashua <-> Manchester), one in the Boston area, one in the Worcester area, one in the Springfield area, one in the Hartford area, and one in the Bridgeport area. I'm guessing the FiNE championship would host about 50 teams in the Boston <-> Worcester area.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

Each district event is open to something like 40 teams. Your initial registration fee lets you pick two events. Figure 225-250 teams across the 5 state area (WI, MN, ND, SD, IA). So you need 13-14 events over the 6 week competition season to let everyone have at least 2 slots. Or about 2 events/week.

The first year, have an event in Milwaukee, and another in Madison. Along with events in Duluth, probably 2 or 3 in the Twin Cities area, Rochester, LaCrosse, and then add some in north central WI (Stevens Point?), SW MN, NW MN (Alexandria area?) and one or two more, and you have the option just about anywhere of going to at least one close event and one that is a 2-4 hour drive. Or you can go a little farther if you want.

I have not given the details a lot of though, just kind of thinking into the keyboard right now. Just know we need to do something, and I'd hate to see WI get stuck in between a bunch of district areas and get locked out.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

This is what I think should happen in the NW, any resemblance to reality is purely coincidental:

I think the NW district would be made up of Oregon, Idaho, Montana, Alaska, Turkey, British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Yukon, Northwest Territories, and Washington.

Three districts would happen centered around Portland, three districts centered around Boise, and three centered around Seattle. The finals will happen in Cheney where the Spokane regional just happened.

We would need to have three fields made, during the off season, one would be stored at Aviation High, the second somewhere in Portland, and the third in Mark Wibbels’s Garage.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

I'd suggest that for the proposed district, the boundary be the Missouri River through SD. There aren't currently any active FRC teams in the state, but there is the distinct East River/West River difference--and events in the Rockies are close to West River.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

When people along the US/Canada border are talking districts I kind of think you have to include the Canadian teams across the border in with them because if the Ontario and Toronto areas go to districts it leaves the other half of Cananda S.O.L.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

I wonder if after all the regions are put into districts there will be any regionals at all or if teams will only be able to interact across regions at the championship. It would be cool to have a regional in each region kept so that this won't happen this way.

That's just awesome. If they don't call it that, I will be upset.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

The NW area would pickup British Columbia, Alberta, and Saskatchewan right now there are only 2 teams in those provinces.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

From a Texas perspective, teams are too spread out to really get the benefits of a district model. For example, teams from El Paso would still have to travel 8 hours to get to an event in San Antonio.

I think Texas is still a couple years away from really seeing the benefits of a District model.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

Not really, at least not if I'm understanding you correctly.

Currently two active (3 total) teams (4334, 1482, [1346]) exist west of Ontario.

They could easily be lumped into a PNW/Midwest region.

The rest of Canada (Ontario and Quebec, plus one team from NS [4147]) is fairly concentrated.

We have 4 regionals right now, and a high percentage of Canadian teams went to 2 or 3 of them this year, and some teams (772, 1241, 188, 781, 610, and more) went south of the border for a regional at least once this season.

We have enough density to make a district model work without help from south of the border.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

Oh, I always thought I heard people saying there was like 20-30 teams in the western half of Canada

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

I've heard the reason it won't happen sooner has to do with contracts for the venues that were signed as multi-year as well as not having the venues for the districts nailed down, but don't hold me to that it's second or third hand.

When I was considering this I came up with similar districts and suggested locations.
New Haven (Yale)
Springfield (WNEC)
Eastern CT (Norwich area)
Worcester (WPI)
Boston (BU)
Nashua
Concord
Portland

District Championship would rotate between Manchester, Hartford and Worcester or just be in Worcester based on it's central location.

With New England having 5 regionals planned for next year (NH, CT, Boston, WPI, Maine) it will be interesting to see how many slots are allocated to the region.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

Ohio - either join with Illinois/Indiana, or go with Western PA/WV/Western NY.

Lots of space to roam out here in the Midwest - don't see how you're going to do a densely-populated district model out here yonder, especially at the current team densities. To get enough teams, you have to add a ton of land mass, and that defeats the whole purpose of the districts. Cheap event fees don't mean much if you're paying for long-distance travel!

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

I know somebody has done this out there, but would love to see it again...

Does anyone have a google map prepared with team locations and regionals already mapped.

As new districts are created it makes sense to consider what parts of the country are being left out. Is it possible to divide North America completely into districts and then permit a couple of international regionals in New York LA, and Israel for our overseas & South American members to participate in?

What areas of the country need to build up a volunteer base for this to work? It is my understanding that the transition to a district system is very grass roots driven, not top down from headquarters.

Kansas City has one of the largesr regionals in the country at 64 teams, with some being turned away due to space constraints. I would love to be part of a district system, and am anxious to hear ideas on how our less densly populated area would make this work.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

Sue Glasspeigel told myself and Foss last November at our FLL event that the regional directors in the New England area are planning to implement the district system around 2014.

One of the main reasons she gave for waiting until then, other than venue contracts, was that they wanted the teams of New England to be "ready" to move to the district system. She and others don't want to simply change the system overnight. From what I can tell, the people planning the transition are putting a lot of forethought into it.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

Agreed, WNY, Western PA and Ohio doesn't seem like too much of a stretch for me, as many of the FLR teams already make the trek down to Pitt or Buckeye.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

I think the Northwest (meaning Oregon/Washington) is a very likely candidate to go to a district system soon. I've seen a couple people from high profile teams out in that area snooping around MI this year, but that isn't necessarily an indication of anything. ;)

I am also a fan of a combined Hawaii/California region, and have heard rumors of a combined Wisconsin/Minnesota region and a combined Indiana/Illinois region.

Nobody has mentioned it yet, but I figure I might as well throw out the idea of Israel going to a district system.

Now regarding Canada, I could see them going to their own region, but probably only under one condition, an option which I've been a supporter of since Day 1 (And I'm in MI so thats a long time ago :rolleyes: ), and that is Cross-Region travel.

What is to stop a team from say, Michigan going to a MAR district and earning points that qualify towards the FiM state championship? As long as you still play the same 12 matches as everyone else, the points you earn should be the same, its just they count towards your own Regional Championship. I just think there shouldn't be a problem with crossover like this once (theoretically) all of FIRST goes to the district system.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

A DMV district event makes sense to me too. I hope they get something within the next few years (though I'll be long gone from the area by then).

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

MAR district events are all Saturday-Sunday so kids miss no school here...

Edit: Sorry for the double post, guys!

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

Emphasis mine.

I'm not gonna go into the whole speech here, it's been done in lots of other places, but a District system actually makes it EASIER to get to Champs, because it isn't just the winners of the regionals, its the top 18 (or whatever) teams in the state by points.

And sorry for posting twice so soon after each other, but I didn't read through this whole thread before I threw in my first comment.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

Aargh, If there's a district event in Madison, we'd have to host it. Hosting Lego League is bad enough...

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

Here is what in my opinion is the PNW district should be:



There are 170 teams in this section of the world. I included Turkey in this regional since most of the Turkish teams attend the Seattle Regional and I did not want to exclude them.

I was thinking the district motto may be 'Yep most of us can see Russia from here'

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

It makes it easier for the "best" teams to consistently go to Championships, but I suspect that it makes it a lot harder for teams like mine (which has never been to Championships before, and is going this year by virtue of winning a EI award) to ever go.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

We weren't snooping. We were scouting. We had a great time in Michigan. You have intense teams and incredible volunteers!!

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

It would be nice to have a district type system here in Texas, but i believe for that to happen in a few years. Texas could probably be divided into 3 different regions like all the teams in the north, here in south central Texas, and the south texas and coast region teams, i dont know how they would do it, but it would be nice to have a district system here, but would they also keep the regionals to, or would they do away with them?

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

I figured as much, I just thought it was funny considering what everyone else was saying in this thread.

And I'm glad you enjoyed your time here, we don't get many outside visitors anymore :D

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

This is my FIRST year back in FIRST since high school and I'm still trying to figure out this whole district stuff. But I like this idea a lot because a few of us engineering mentors on my team have been talking about doing the team 69 model where they compete in a local regional and then go somewhere far away. Our team has mentors who are from CT, Pittsburgh, Rochester, & Philly so we'd obviously like to take our team out there (our philosophy is since the championship seems impossible to get into why not just travel somewhere further away to compete against different teams). I just hope they leave enough opportunities to travel if teams choose to.

I saw a few posts about Texas too --I hope they hold off a little bit on switching to districts. I think there are a lot of resource/mentor constrained teams here in DFW and I won't be surprised if we see a lot of teams merge in the next few seasons . I think we might see a reverse new england/midwest model where a lot of veteran teams started with 2/3/4 high schools and as individual schools got more involved they split off. Just my $0.02.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

Something I remember from way back long ago, as I was going to a preship back in 1999 (the second year I was hanging around, but my first competition). What I remember was that I was told that FIRST higherups wanted to go to more and smaller events. 10 years before the district system started. 10. YEARS. That's a long time, and it takes planning.

I think what'll probably happen in 2013 is that no new areas go district (maybe MN and WI). But in 2014, there will be an explosion of areas going district--New England and California being the most likely, with the Pacific Northwest being right behind.



For all you including all of Montana in a PNW district system: Make sure you also include Wyoming and Colorado. Otherwise the eastern Montana teams won't have a close competition to go to. Western Montana is a stretch as it is unless competitions are added to Idaho. The same goes for western South Dakota in a Minnesota district system--Denver's closer at this point in time than the Twin Cities.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

Eventually as districts grow, we will have teams that are stuck between two districts. A lot of the international teams will have a similar problem. We should give these teams the option to chose a district they want to be part of. To draw an example from high school athletics; there are two nevada high schools that compete in California leagues because they are closer.

This may not be convenient at all for international teams. In cross country, track field and most distant running races have all-comer meets. these events have people of all ages compete. Often there will be professionals looking for training or make a qualifing time for a professional event.

If most of FIRST goes district, we could have a week 6 lull where all-comer events could take place. These open events enabling the regional spirit to continue. Teams could continue the tradition of traveling far to a new event. It would enable some teams to bypass district qualifing adding some redundancy in qualifying for champs. Hopefully by being week 6, these all-comer events would be a lot of fun since most teams have should have fixed all their bugs.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

I think the PNW is closer to the District System than 2014. My bet in talking to our leadership it's probably next year, some people have been thinking about it for a year or so now.


You may have missed my post earlier that put three districts around Boise, one of them could be in Butte, Helena, or Great Falls.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

I could easily see a point a few years out where the hard lines between districts fizzle out.

As much as I dislike the idea of walling off enclaves, the borders are necessary to get the district style events up and running, to get the volunteers and support infrastructure in place. But...

Once enough areas move into district formats (especially when there are neighboring districts), there doesn't have to be hard boundaries between districts to prevent cross-pollination of teams. Both areas have the events and support infrastructure in place, and both allocated enough open spots at their districts for all teams.

Assuming the teams who want to "travel" is roughly equal between the districts, there's no reason to prevent non home-district teams from attending those events. If ten teams want to compete elsewhere in Week 2, there are now ten slots available to all teams. Registration could also work with the first two districts being guaranteed to local (home district) teams, while third district registration is first come, first served for everyone.

At that point, the only real need for borders is to determine which district championship your award/performance points accrue toward.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

You're right, I did. But that still doesn't solve the problem of the mountains and the long drive over them to an event.


My point is this: When you're drawing the region boundaries for districts, look at where the teams are going currently. 9 times out of 10, teams will go to their closest event or closest 2 events. If you have a team that is going to Utah and Colorado but not Spokane, then you should probably ask them if they're interested in being in a district that includes events in Great Falls, Helena, or Butte.

To take the South Dakota example, which I'm a bit more familiar with: Most of the (now non-existent) teams would have gone to Kansas City--this was before Colorado existed, let alone Minnesota or Utah (the regionals, not the states!), and I have that from one of the mentors at that time. But, with the current regional setup, teams in eastern SD would tend to go to Minneapolis for either 10K Lakes or North Star--it's only a few hours away. For the teams in the western half of the state, that's a full day's drive and possibly then some (5 hours to Sioux Falls, not counting the time change, then the few-hour drive). For those teams, Denver makes more sense, as it's only most of a day driving (or a short flight for a team who had a few frequent-flyer miles lying around)--if Utah was considered, it would be a second option along with Minnesota. So if MN decides unilaterally that the Dakotas are part of their district, the western half of the state will be in the same boat that Michigan's UP is in currently--their closest event is not in the district system. (Note that this whole example is currently a moot point--SD has no FRC teams.)

See where I'm going? I know you can't please everybody, but at least making the attempt is better than just saying "You are in our area". That's what MAR did by only including certain parts of Pennsylvania this year.

And, as a corollary: When forming a district, asking teams that go to only events in that area, regardless of where they are physically located, if they would like to stay in the district or not would be a really good idea. (Ask the Chilean team--one year at Great Lakes and then MSC formed, so they've been at Los Angeles ever since.)

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

I find some of the objections to district events a little strange given what MAR has done this season. Particularly states/regions claiming they need more regionals before they move to a district system. MAR only has 99 teams and the area only encompassed two existing regionals (Philadelphia and New Jersey). Granted, both events are very old and the volunteers and teams in the region have had a long time to get acclimated from FIRST. But the region certainly doesn't have the team or volunteer population of many of the other areas, and relied heavily on volunteer crossover between events and drawing volunteers from other nearby regionals (New York, Chesapeake, DC, etc.).

Dawgma missed a grand total of two days of school to attend three MAR events this season. Each district is only two days long, and some of them are Saturday/Sunday. We lucked out by having day 1 of Hatboro fall over an in-service (no school) day, so we didn't miss any school until Thursday and Friday of this week for MAR Championship.

I don't see how those are mutually exclusive.

It would be semi-ironic to have Dean Guceri's "new" university (WPI) host the New England region championship when his departure from Drexel was one of the big impetus for the creation of MAR (due to the additional cost of the Philadelphia regional once Drexel was no longer an option).

Only the New Jersey events were Saturday-Sunday. Hatboro-Horsham and Chestnut Hill were Friday-Saturday.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

I think that as soon as the PNW goes to a district model, most (if not all) of the Turkish teams will go to the Midwest regional, where if I remember correctly one of the four Turkish teams goes already.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

Related to teams caught between districts:

We're in Iowa (only 4 teams in our state), and I'd love to see a district system near us, as long as we get an opportunity to join it. I don't see how being forced to travel would be a strike against districts, because we already travel a decent distance to any event we attend. I'd be thrilled with a district system for the simple reason that we'd get an extra event for the same registration cost.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

Also, I spoke with Mark Breadner (CMP WFA Winner and Regional Director for FIRST Robotics Canada) at the Montreal Regional briefly about Canada moving to a district system, and was told that its at the region's discretion, and likely coming soon but likely not for 2013.

I would expect a Canadian district system for the 2014 or 2015 season.

FIRST has been trying to figure out how to restructure things to solve the overcrowding CMP issue. Bottom line is one of two things. We either have to qualify less teams to CMP, or we have to increase capacity at CMP. This year, based on my count of the events, if every team that earned a slot went, there would be only about 25 slots (based on a capacity of 360) left for open registration. At the rate we're adding regionals now, that number is shrinking fast. I think there is probably no more room with whatever new regionals start for 2013. HQ has to do something. If you look at a graph of the growth rate, we're growing faster than ever.

Moving the entire program (or at least most of it, only leaving 'traditional' regionals where there's not enough density to pull off a district model) to a district model could be done in such a way to control how many go to CMP, or it could be used to introduce a split CMP system or something, where regions in the east qualify to a FRC East Championship and regions in the west qualify to a FRC West Championship, and then those qualify to CMP.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

Just for comparison (and because I was interested to know):

Capital Region
VA: 67 Teams
MD: 36 Teams
DC: 15 Teams
Total Teams: 118
Area: 55,250 sq. mi.
Density: 0.0021 teams/sq. mi.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

Just for numbers sake...

In the UP there's only 11 teams leaving 179 in the LP and I calculated the area of just the LP to be 54,000 sq. mi. making the density of the lower half 0.0033 teams/sq. mi.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

There has been a volunteer here at the MAR championships from Minnesota (!!!!) observing and asking teams their opinion on the district system. I have a feeling we're going to start seeing announcements/discussion in various regions about moving to the district model once the off season starts. Whether any will happen in 2013 is beyond my knowledge but I'm sure we will see a few in 2014.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

Personally, I'd like Minnesota, Wisconsin, and the UP all together. Downstate is so far away by comparison.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

What if there was an event in the UP?

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

Since there are only 11 teams in the UP, we need teams from somewhere else to make an event worthwhile. I've been thinking that a Midwest district could attract more teams than downstate because of the shape of Michigan. A local event plus a WI or MN event would do wonders for travel costs. (0-2 h and 4-6 h instead of 7-8h and 9-10h for TC and West Michigan [from Houghton])

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

With Ca. approaching 200 FRC teams next year, we are running out of regionals. As it stands now, we have 5 regionals. Ca. would make the most sense of going to a Mi. style of events. Rumor has it that it is still a few years away. There is talk of adding one more regional, somewhere in the state. Maybe adding one more in L.A. and making it dual events like Seattle had this year.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

Man, I was thinking people would be knee deep in CMP talk instead of already jumping onto this ship. I need to put a rush on the paper I have been working on theorizing a post-2013 FIRST world.

I can foresee that after the FRC CMP contract in St. Louis runs out in 2013, there will be a big shake up in the way a lot of teams play FRC. I was talking to many members of the regional planning board in VA to see if they were considering it. Judging by FiM and MAR timelines the talks came 2 years before the implementation, so I'm calling 2014. In fact, some were calling out towns where the events would be held in addition to the Capital Championship ending at VCU (how can it NOT?).

It's not team dense in square miles, but the majority of teams are right on or around I-95 metro areas, which puts them minutes to a couple hours away from any regional in existence. I drove across Michigan this weekend... that place is HUGE, but the team concentration is obviously Greater Oakland.

I can see Texas and California and north midwest states being apprehensive because of the distances one must travel... I would hope FIRST would put in any sort of plan in the style of what I am working on. A comprehensive, controlled shifting to the district system across the contiguous US, with provisions for international/HI/AK teams.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

I wouldn't be surprised if they did that, but they are doing this:

I personally would love to see one more Norther California Regional. I smaller one, just to alleviate some of the stress off of SVR and SAC, I feel like CVR did a good job at that, but another 30-40 team regional would be nice. It would be even better if it were near an airport, because then it would be a draw to some international and out of state teams. Then california could play host to the First ever FRC Triple Crown. If you win all three regional competitions you win the triple crown. Just a thought.

Another idea, although far-fetched, would be to have two CA districts, One North and One South. The State Championship could be a two fielder event North on one field and South on another and then the winners of each field have to face one another so it would be an ultimate North vs. South Battle. That would be crazy!!

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

My Michigan bias may be showing, but if this happens all of Michigan will have a riot. Michigan and California have virtually the same number of teams (within 10 of each other I believe), so if California is turned into two regions there have to be some serious changes in Michigan as well. I realize geography is at work in your idea, but you have to look at it this way: 2 regions means (theoretically) twice as many teams going to St. Louis (or wherever the Championship is), and I don't think it would be fair to send say 30 out of 190 California teams there and only 18 out of 180 (those numbers are just guesses) Michigan teams.

I guess this is an issue that overlaps a lot of this talk of switching to district systems. How do we keep the number of teams going from each region "fair?" I know right now its the former number of regionals that area had, but that won't work much longer for MI. We have over 180 teams and we get the equivalent of 3 regionals (18 teams sent, I believe). California has 5 so theoretically if it goes to districts they will send 30 teams if my math is correct.

I don't know, just some thoughts. I apologize if I'm misunderstanding anything.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

Haha I can see how that would upset a lot of michigan teams. I was just thinking geographically. My idea was that it would still be one championship, just divided up better. The same number of teams would qualify for champs at a CSC. The extra battle of North vs. South would really just be for the title of California State Champions. Both alliances would qualify, and then a predetermined number of teams on both sides would qualify for the FIRST CHMP. Like I said, It's completely far-fetched, but just a fun idea :cool:

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

This is very disadvantageous for SoCal teams from a competitive standpoint.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

I know. It's just a fun idea. It would be a very cool off season event if anything.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

Also, as much as people outside of the professional world live in an alternate reality where everyone goes to 7 competitions in one season, it's not really plausible for the vast majority of people. The district system allows teams to miss less work days than a 3-day regional. You can cap it at four, MAYBE five events provided people aren't missing a week dependent on a CMP appearance and district dates.

1676 has gone to 4 events and will go to a fifth this competition season assuming they go to CMP). Both districts were Saturday/Sunday, NYC was Friday-Sunday, MAR was Thursday-Saturday, and CMP is Wednesday-Sunday (travel).

They missed 6 days over 5 events. Meanwhile, a two or three regional team is going to be missing more days if they go to CMP.

It's one of many factors we/FIRSTHQ must consider in all of this. There can't be any Superultraregionals that put teams into CMP or state divisions that qualify you for a state CMP.

This stuff is hard.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

Where I see the national model going in the next 5 years is a gradual but steady transition over to the district system. Israel would not necessarily go to the district model; countries without enough teams to adopt a district could choose a district area to play in. 2-3 areas per year go over to district system. New England, New York (possibly split--NYC and Long Island to MAR or NE, western NY to the western PA/OH area), California, the Pacific Northwest, and the entire upper Midwest are prime early adoption candidates, with Canada hot on their tail and Texas farther out.

As more areas become district hotspots, like Michigan and MAR, the restriction on where teams within the districts play relaxes. Teams can play in any district and get points towards their home area championship. However, there will be areas where there just aren't enough teams to hold an area championship for a while. For those areas, the super regional comes into play.

Each super regional would be run just like a mid-sized regional of about 40-50 teams. It would be filled by teams from areas without their own area championship first, but other teams could opt to attend in lieu of their own area championship. Effectively, it would be the area championship, but more open to surrounding teams. Slots in area championships not filled by teams opting to attend super regionals would be filled as normal.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

So I just want to clarify, to make sure I understand. So I'll craft a hypothetical situation:

Montana becomes its own region, and it has less than 64 teams. (I have no idea where to look that info up, I'm just assuming) So instead of a state championship, there is a "super regional" held. My team, in Michigan, decided to go to that instead of MSC. Is this allowed? How do the points work? Would we just apply and if we are in the top 64 (just using the same number of teams as MSC for arguments sake) of teams applying to the super regional we get to go to that one? Or is it based on if we qualify for our own state championship and just decide to go to the "super regional"?

I'm just not quite clear on the whole "super regional" concept.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

First, I'll just say that Montana, Wyoming, and the Dakotas combined couldn't put together a 24-team elimination field. You'd need to bring in Idaho or Colorado to do that--and Idaho would go PNW. So I'm going to figure an area that includes the 4 states first mentioned as one site for a super regional.

We'll figure that 910 has qualified for MSC by normal processes.

Under what I'm seeing: 910 can attend MSC, or one of 2-3 super regionals scattered around the country, one of which is Center of Nation Super Regional(CNSR) in Rapid City, SD (as a central city to the above-named states). To qualify for CNSR, teams can, in order of precedence:

1. Be in the area that CNSR would be an area championship for, if there were anywhere near enough teams. These teams would have the option to attend district events, but the CNSR would be their only chance at Championship due to lack of an area championship.
2. Qualify for their area championship, but opt to go to CNSR instead. (910's route here.)
3. Teams that qualified for an area championship award (RCA and RAS) but did not have enough points to take their robot to the area championship, can request to play here on the basis of those awards, which would be judged at CNSR. (Or other arrangements could be made--something to be worked on. Also note that this one could be moot depending on whether a district system qualifies the robots as well as the team.)
4. Point comparison of all teams that want to go. Take from the high side until you have a full field.

A field of 40-50 or so many play at the super regional. The CNSR sends up to 12 teams to the Championship, namely 3 winners, 1+ RCA, 1 EI, 1 RAS, fill out the field with the top point-getters under the standard points system--but all teams playing at CNSR start with a clean slate pointwise. You gotta play your best to move on...

Another example would be from one in the Northeast, say New York. In that area, there would be multiple areas covered that have championships. Same qualification system, with the exception of the first point not being used. Same clean slate pointwise. Same number of teams going to the Championship--but a bigger area to cover, most likely.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

Thanks, that explains a lot. Very well thought out, I like it.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

Why is everyone dead set on the two tier system?
Once points come into play across the entire country they can just be used to determine who qualifies for St. Louis or where ever it may be... This would remove the whole build season depending on only a few hours at a regional championship. The only real reason that the country needs to be broken into regions is for the planning of events and to coordinate volunteers, funding for events, etc. Even then it is only needed because locals understand what works and what doesn't in their area.

As for the whole teams signing up for St. Louis early, the points system would still enable that. It actually makes it easier, because if a team is ranked high, but is already signed up for champs then their spot that was earned by points would simply go to the next on the list. Keeping the level of play high, while still enabling teams to attend every few years if they have not qualified.

The main issue with the country going to a district system is going to be volunteers and the way championships is structured. Both will either have to expand or the way of life in FIRST that we all want will not survive the explosive growth.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

fuzzy, I think the #1 biggest problem with the elimination of the area championships and just going by points is not an easy one to deal with.

How on earth do you figure out how many events the points count from, and which events?

You could do first event. Covers every team out there, but quite often those teams aren't at top form. (Or you get the rushes to Week 1 and Week N (the last week) events.)

You could do first two events. Now you need to deal with the fact that at least half the teams don't do two right now. Part of that will be offset by using a 2-district-event model similar to MI and MAR. Some of it won't. Even in MI and MAR, some teams will only go to one event due to travel distance, time, or cost, or something else comes up, or, or... Some teams that would undoubtedly be well-qualified for Championship won't have the point total to qualify--and there isn't a good way to make up the difference.

You could do average. There's a discussion on the teams that didn't qualify but should really be there--"The Rest of the Best" or something like that, where I lay out my objection to the average method. Short version, it heavily favors the single-event teams (and someone else came up with it favoring multi-event teams).

It's not an easy problem to solve by any means. That's why we're stuck with a 2-tier system until someone comes up with a system that deals with the varying numbers of events, the "good enough to go but didn't qualify" (though that'll be helped by a point-based system), and the current auto-qualifying regional awards. (Championship auto-qualifiers should stay as-is--HoF, defending champs, original and sustaining teams.) Again, not an easy problem. A 2-tier system buys time, and hopefully generates discussion on how to solve the problem in the optimal way.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

^^I'm confused. How does moving to a system with less blue banner bids necessitate a larger CMP?

Here are some facts. At CMP 10 years ago, it was a free for all. A decade ago, there were 17 competitions in an entire season. Now there are more than 17 before we even leave Week 2.

Putting on a regional is like setting up a high-tech state fair, except there must be money and infrastructure in place to run every single one of them. In a tumultuous economy, the district system was born as a low-cost, high-volume alternative/more bang for your buck/higher efficiency.

Michigan engineered a competition structure that will be able to weather the future. We are running out of available venues, blowing incredible corporate sponsorships on these venues that could be funneled into teams, and the program is populating itself without restraint, leaving the unprepared to wander off and die 1 or 2 years after they are brought into the world.

Another fact: In a state where we had 5 new rookies, we lost 6 teams. No offense to any rookie teams or VAFIRST, but that is by no stretch or morphing of reality, an improvement.

The regional system has rookies dumping six thousand dollars to get trounced by these well-established powerhouses without any preparation. I'm not saying that preparation is building a robot as strong as these powerhouses, but mentors and students that do not quickly understand the values of FIRST. They won't take the concept of getting steamrolled after throwing all the money and work they could into their robot.

Enter the district system. It's more than just another way to play into CMP. It's a natural support system. People forget that while FiM has these "district competitions" these are not the "districts." Districts are the geographic divisions that are based on team concentration and location and encourage targeted growth and development of new teams while supporting fledgling teams. That'sthe district system.

I'm in favor of forming into geographic conferences (The Monongahela/Ohio River Valley Conference (upper WV, western PA, Ohio) The Capital Regional Conference (MD-DC-VA) FiNE, Southern Atlantic Coast Conference (NC/SC/GA) Gulf Coast, yadda yadda) and opt-in destination regionals (Hawaii, Dallas, Los Angeles, Chicago, New York, Israel, DC) that have double field play (HI/IS excluded) outside of districts that teams who don't go to CMP can play in.

TLDR: Districts are fun.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

This is why i think districts are great. You get more matches and more chances to show off that robot which you worked so hard on. And by going to 2 districts, you get more opportunities to interact and learn from other teams, vs. a rookie going to 1 regional competition and not being able to apply what you learned until next year.

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

??

Re: New District Events for 2013?
 

I've heard of Roanoke and VA Beach in Virginia...

Or maybe I daydreamed in the stands...

But I'm pretty sure I've heard it.

I know it's in its infantile stages and it was just "talks."