Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

We haven't had a thread like this one for a few years that I can remember, but considering the expanded size of Championship and the collective gasp when some high-caliber teams have finished their last regional without a banner...

The Rules:
* Check the Championship roster to confirm your picks. (Mind you, the Michigan and MAR invitees may not be on this list yet.)
* Anyone who mentions their own team should be showered in a firestorm of negative Reputation. If you really should be on this list, odds are someone will mention you.

With that said, here are my picks from the events I attended:

343. Metal In Motion had a plenty smooth robot this year, robust and handling the bridges with ease. They knocked us out at Peachtree in the quarters as part of the #8 alliance on their way to the finals, and we returned the favor in the Palmetto finals the following week. It's a hard break to see them finish this season with two silver medals. (Indeed, ever since they won Palmetto in 2010, every field they've played on--Newton that year, Palmetto and North Carolina in 2011, and Peachtree and Palmetto in 2012--they left with silver.)

1771. Our friends from North Gwinnett had the robot to beat in Georgia, leading to a showdown with #1 1311 in the penultimate qualification match. Put those two together, and we thought it was on lock (even before they picked us). Quarterfinals gremlins gave us a shock, and that was supposed to be that for their season--but these guys got into high gear and raised the funds to get to North Carolina. They wound up on the other end of the bracket from 1311 again, netting silver.

Who comes to mind for you?

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

Uhh, ... 217?

Missed qualifying at MSC by 1 pt.

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

I was about to say... Where the heck are the thunder chickens??

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

Is it true that 71 and 217 are NOT attending CMP this year?:yikes:

368, 1056 from HI get my vote.
368 has been a regular for years........too bad not this year.

I'm so glad we will never be on such a list.....:)

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177. They continually build great robots and have been a sure-fire ticket to Einstein for the past few years. They have a solid robot this year, and it will be wierd to not have them at CMP.

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2168 - 2 #1 seeds NYC and CT. Control system issues doomed both their alliances before the finals.

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It's an absolute crime that 2481 isn't in. They are by far the best team not in. Anyone who saw them play this year will tell you the same.

17-4 in qualls, #1 seed in Wisconsin and #3 at Queen City and a top 10 OPR and CCWM.

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

177 As we say around here, "they've made Einstein every year Joe Blay's been on the team". They had a fascinating acquirer - not only did it flip out, offering them the advantage that a wide intake offers, it could acquire from the side as well. Their turret was incredibly accurate - heck, at CT, due to a rules snag with height, they actually just sat at the key while scoring balls that their alliance members fed them. It's a shame that their Einstein streak got shut down by the lack of a CMP ticket.

2168 #1 seed at NYC and CT, their robot had the single most consistent shooter I saw in action. As one of the few strong teams without a wide intake, their drivers were incredibly skilled (and I've heard some ridiculous things about the controls too). Arguably every loss they experienced in eliminations arose from a communications issue that effectively either bricked them or an alliance partner. Fat Swan was definitely division elimination material, if not Einstein-level.

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

71 - 4 World Championships, 5 Einstein appearances (gave them credit for Einstein in 1997, even though it didn't exist)
177 - 2 World Championships, 7 Einstein appearances
217 - 2 World Championships, 6 Einstein appearances

8 Championships, 18 Einsteins. It actually makes me sick to think of Championships without these three teams.

Other top teams who are missing out:

294 - 2 World Championships, and an amazing alliance partner for us last year.
1625 - One of the top teams in FIRST over the past 5 years
1730 - One of the up and coming future powerhouse teams
188, 829 & 2168 - Lumped them together because the situations are similar. Great robots, great qualification performances, but bad luck in the elimations.

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

357 made it to the finals in the Hatboro-Horsham District and won the DC Regional. They also are qualified to go through MAR points. But they decided not to go for whatever reason.

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

I see that 2337 is not on the Championship roster.

EDIT: Realized that Bill said that MAR and Michigan teams might not be registered yet.

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

As of now 217 is not competing in the champs. They are the first alternate if any of the qualifying teams from MSC cannot attend.

In the event that they do not qualify, they (217) would make my list along with 177, 188, 71, 1771, 368, 1625, and 3138 are some of the few that stick out to me at the moment.

There were a lot of others on the list that were able to clinch in week 6 or during MSC/MARC.

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

It's impossible to mention 2168 too many times in this thread.

Their robot was deadly accurate at the Suffield Shakedown Scrimmage (when most teams are just trying to move, or not flip over), and it only got better from there.

They were one of those teams that was hungry, motivated, classy, fun to work with, and great all around robot. This season for whatever reason they just couldn't catch a break.

I fully expect to see them make the final match of every off season they attend.

Maybe they'll decide to go to IRI so that they can turn some heads in the Midwest.

I wish them the best of luck in the coming years.

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

2337 qualified for Championship. 469, 67, 548, 2054, 1918, 1023, 3098, 2337, 573, 3322, 2474, 245, 830, 4294, 33, 503, 1718, and 4130 are the teams qualifying for Championship through Michigan's 18 spots. 67 is auto-bid as Hall of Fame. 469 and 830 would've qualified by points even without winning the event. 33 and 503 won Chairman's. 1718 won Engineering Inspiration and 4130 won Rookie All Star.

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

So is 51, right?

If 51's HoF qualification removes them from Michigan's 18 slot allocations, then shouldn't 67's HoF qualification work the same way?

Then one more MSC team would need to be added, to complete the 18 slots. 217 is next in line.

Someone please correct me if I have misunderstood any of the above.

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

I'm gonna have to throw 2168 in again, however everything that has needed to be said about them has already been done, so all I can add is that they were one of the best robots without a practice bot that I've seen in a while. And definitelty 188, a consistently solid team that is in a tough area to compete in.

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

The way the systemfor Michigan works as I've been made to understand it is that only the 10 spots that are determined by points are redistributable. As such, 67's spot will open up on the waitlist, not for 217. Likewise, 27 qualified through the Chairman's Award and had already qualified for the championship event through winning the Engineering Inspiration at the Chesapeake Bay Regional but their spot is also not available for distribution and will go to the waitlist. Likewise, if one of the Chairman's teams, the RAS winner, or the Engineering Inspiration winner are unable to attend (though my understanding is they are all able to), the spot would open on the waitlist not for 217.

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

Well, according to the FiM 2012 Supplement Rules,

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

Compiling teams mentioned in thread + bolded additions of my own....

-Duke

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

Another post for 357. If anyone was going to break the "no mecanums on Einstein" streak, it would have been Royal Assault. Their ranking and quarterfinal finish at the MAR Championship does not do they justice, they were incredible this season.

174 were really impressive on Saturday at DC, the only time I saw them this year. They were hanging shot-for-shot with 1218 and 836 in the semi-finals (aside of the notorious match 2, where the entire #5 alliance was incapacitated in some way).
e; See that someone beat me to them by a minute. New York teams are not part of MAR. Only Eastern PA, NJ, and Delaware.

I'll add in 3974 as the best rookie team not going. Three Rookie Inspiration awards (both of their districts and the MAR Championship), but somehow no rookie all star. Highest rookie seed at Lenape and MAR Championship (#4 seed!). Really knew how to play the game with the bot they had, and were a very effective back court machine.

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

It appears after looking at the results again that 67's spot was correctly redistributed as there are 12 teams that qualified based off of points. These teams are 548, 2054, 1918, 1023, 3098, 2337, 573, 3322, 2474, 245, and 4294, and 51(also through HoF so not counted).

Also to Chris, it likewise appears that team 51's performance does not remove a spot so you do not have to feel anything wrong with that. It appears the only spots that cannot be redistributed are the Chairman's, Engineering Inspirations, and Rookie All-Star spots *if* the team did not qualify based on points. Also, I'd like to thank 51 for picking us both at MSC and at the Detroit regional.

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

2481 gets my vote. Very impressive machine and a great team to go along with it.

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228. They were absolutely devastating at WPI, and lost CT due to control issues.

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I am really gonna miss not seeing 177 at CMPs, I would agree with all the others mentioned as well.

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

2168 for me has the best robot not at championship. Obviously there are some really great robots and team's that are absolute powerhouses that are not attending like 177, 217, 71 and many of the others mentioned here, but for me the best robot not there is 2168's. So consistent and accurate. They lost one qualification match all year and might have 2 championships at this point in the season if FRC still used IFI.

It occurs to me that the district system really seems to help in repairing issues with great robots not being at championship. With all those spots given at the end of the competition, teams like 1676, 1218, and 2016 where lucky enough to not be named in this thread. When the day comes that everything is in districts I suspect this thread will have very few teams.

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

Here is "The Rest Of The Best" based solely on seeding. Please be forewarned, I may have missed a few rocks when data mining.

#1 Seeds not attending Championships:
70, 131, 829 (also #2 seed), 935 (also #3 seed), 1089 (also #3 seed), 1676(mismined ... going to CMP), 1895, 2168 (twice #1 seed), 2481 (also #3 seed), 3138, 3161, 3293, 3636

#2 Seeds not attending Championships:
11 (a rock that might have been mismined), 95, 123, 224, 346, 538, 829, 888, 1056, 1230, 1243, 1468, 1503, 1661 (twice #2 seed), 1771, 2052, 2586, 2673, 3483, 3487, 3812, 3996, 4003

#3 Seeds not attending Championships:
56, 176, 177, 216, 294, 326, 368, 467, 473, 476, 599, 862, 935, 967, 1065, 1086, 1089, 1094, 1100, 1158, 1251, 1625, 2147, 2172, 2252, 2386, 2449, 2481, 2485, 2508, 2709, 2767, 2848, 3351, 3489, 3618, 3676, 3729, 3743, 4085

I'm still a fan of top seeded teams getting an invitation to Championships,
Lucien

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

We'll be there; qualified at MAR Championships last night ;)

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Team 3698. I wouldn't call them the best robot, but they were one of the most consistent. Their flaw was not being able to score high, but other than that, they were a lot of fun to watch. I think that they could have won Spokane if Skunkworks hadn't played very good defense.

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Curious, 935 won Dallas West. Not attending champs must have been a choice. They have a devastating catapult and would have been a great addition to Champs.

A similar thing happened in 2010 when they won Oklahoma, but didn't attend champs. They did attend in 2011.

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888 should be on the list. We picked them up as a 6th alliance and but just couldn't overpower the third. Very accurate and impressive shooter.

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

First of all I want to say that at MSC, 11 teams qualified based on points instead of 10 teams as the Michigan supplement rules stated. That is because Team 67's spot was redistributed as the State Championship winner and they already registered to attend as an HoF team.
Secondly when there are more district events set up, the strong teams will be promoted to compete with their robot and not missed the opportunity that they deserved because they were not on the winning alliance. Other teams who won other awards should be allowed to attend as a team as well without their robot. That is how we do it in Michigan for teams who won Engineering Inspiration and RAS but did not qualify with their robot. That way they can experience the Championship just like another other team. They should be given an area similar to the size of a 10X10 pit to set up their display to talk to visitors and explain to them about FIRST and what they do.

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

3968 is going as Rookie All-Star for Seattle Cascade.

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This is what's wrong with the current championship setup. Why aren't the best teams (71, 217, 1625, etc...) attending?!

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

There should one available spot where every team in FRC casts one vote for who they believe should get into CMP.

With that said, I wonder if people would pick 177 to continue their streak or 71 to grab another championship.

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

We love 935. Very nice team. We were rather upset to hear they would not be coming to championships with us this year.

From my understanding* they come from a poor-er part of Kansas, and were financially unable to attend championships and are putting their money to a different project.

I know I will be wearing a yellow bandana in their honor, and we hope to see them again in the future!



(* I dont mean to gossip if this is not the case)

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

Did everyone forget about 179? Their robot was so creative. Too bad I won't see that bot at CMP.

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Champs won't be the same without the Bobcats.

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Id honestly have a hard time between 177, 71 and 217... Lots of 1's and 7's there..

I love the streak's so that my reasoning for 177.

71 is a FIRST legend, it would suck for teams not to see them.

Michigan bias will always help for teams like 217.

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

Don't forget about 1771 :D

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Seconded along with the others.

---

... and this is why IRI exists...

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

Having been to both Peachtree and Palmetto, I would agree with 343 as a choice.

I'd throw team 1102 from Palmetto into the mix.
They were the only undefeated team from day 1, I believe, and only lost two matches during day 2, I think they had communication problems during the last two matches in qualification. I noticed they consistently got the 3 pointers up from the fender, even from the key when they needed to, and they balanced every time in the qualifying rounds. During Quarterfinal 2, if they hadn't had those arms on the front they would have fell over, that was a intense match to watch.

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

I can't believe this is how 177's streak ends. From first pick to robot 24 they've made it to Einstein. They at least deserved one epic division finals. If anything, at least they can rest on the fact that no alliance ever broke their streak- this year, they will not compete on Einstein because it is physically impossible for them to do so.

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Add me to the list of people who were impressed by 2168. They deserved a trip and the fact they were knocked out by controls system issues at back to back regionals is criminal.

Also it isn't a valid championship without the Beast, 71, Team Hammond. Until some one else gets 4 they are standard of excellence in FIRST for on field excellence. They way they run that team is a bar of off field excellence as well.

I will put in an honerable mention for 2791. They were the class of the BAE regional until their control failure that they never seemed to have fully recovered from at CT.

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

I'll toss my vote in for 2168 as well. They're likely the 'best' robot not at the CMP.

On the subject of 71, one of the teams that inspired me way back when I started FRC, you'd think that winning 4 Championships would get them an auto bid to CMP - or something.

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This thread exemplifies why there shouldn't be buy-ins for the championship. With a field of up to 400 robots, there is no reason for so many excellent robots to miss the event. We shouldn't be saying that we have to wait for IRI before the best of the best are all in one place. In place of buy-ins, FIRST should have "at-large" spaces to fill the field with. A points system similar to the FiM and MAR point systems should be used for determining these spots. The 100 or so best robot performances by points at any regional, as well as the FiM and MAR championships, are invited to fill the "at-large" spaces in St. Louis.

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

We really shouldn't be surprised by great teams not making it to the Championships - especially this year. The 3-team serpentine alliance selection system increases the likelihood that the "3rd best" team will not win. In fact, it assures that at least one of the regional winners will not be among the best robots (if any scouts at the event have done their job). With Coopertition Points re-arranging the ranking so much this year, there is an even greater chance that the "best" teams are not ranked as highly as they might be. They get more evenly distributed and only one alliance gets the win.

The district model seems to help this situation, but most of us are not in districts yet.

- Mr. Van
Robodox

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

I'm alittle suprised to see numbers like 188 and 910 not on the CMP list, even without seeing their robots.

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I dont know about that considering that some of the ones people are complaining about are from the District system.

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Speaking from Michigan, my primary complaint is not that the district point system is really bad at selecting teams to qualify for the Championship, because I realise that our system is a significant improvement over the regional system in that respect. My primary complaint is that Michigan is allotted spaces based on the number of teams/regionals here 3 years ago. Michigan, based on our number of teams, should be given more slots (~4 regionals for 190 teams) than 18 (3 regionals for 132 teams). I think it would be fair to reduce the number of buy-ins to increase the number of qualifiers. This would mostly alleviate my concerns about really good Michigan teams not making the Championship.

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I totally agree with this. I think all of the teams that qualified from Michigan deserve it. There is no question that any of them shouldn't be going to championships. The problem is we don't have enough slots to give away.

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There's 33 teams from Michigan registered for Championships, which means that 13 had to buy in (since 51 and 67 get automatic bids, they don't count towards the 18). Compare that to Minnesota, which is sending 13 teams total... and they have something like 155 teams this year. Just something to think about.

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It'd be interesting to see the breakdown of which states/regions/countries all the teams are from that are attending champs. I would've believed more Michigan teams are competing. This also makes me curious as to how many CA teams are competing... or Canadian teams.

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Hmm...

Maybe once districts are widespread, FIRST needs to have a "census" to ensure that all areas are properly represented. :p

Though on a more serious note, we all have to realize that FIRST is going to keep on growing, and the championship probably will not. We are not going to go back to the good ol' days, when everyone could get into championship by open registration. It is only going to get harder to get there. Teams that "deserve" it will not go, because there will be more teams that "deserve it" more. We are in a transition phase, where attending champioinships is moving from a right, to something that is earned. The manner in which it is earned could arguably use some improvement. But no matter how we do it, it isn't going to get any easier to get there.

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

When I said "I think it would be fair to reduce the number of buy-ins to increase the number of qualifiers," I was not exempting Michigander buy-ins. Coming from a team that would never go to the Championship if we did not qualify, I would not complain if buying into the Championship were completely eliminated.

I'm not going to tell you that Minnesota teams are over- or under-represented or that Minnesota teams are better or worse, but they can buy their way to the Championship or they can go to regionals and qualify just like anyone else. You can't really specifically distribute spots in the open regional system, but if Minnesota were to have a state district system, they would (almost certainly) receive 155 teams worth of spots at the Championship, just like Michigan and MAR did when they began. However, Michigan is no longer receiving its fair share. Michigan has 190 teams, which is 8.1% (190 of 2343*) of FRC. The Championship has about 260 qualifying spots (400 minus 140 buy-ins*) this year. 8.1% of 260 is about 21. I will rescind my right to complain if FRC gives Michigan 3 more qualifying spots (unless Michigan grows significantly or the number of qualifying spots grows significantly).

The 13 Michigander buy-ins are 9.3%* of the 140 registration spots, which is probably a reflection of the resources many Michigan teams have. The 31 Michigan teams are 7.8%*, which is about right, except that I don't think we should be comparing teams that simply register. Those aren't spots allotted, which is the focus of this discussion, but rather spots open to all teams. I would focus on the fact that Michigan is only 6.9% of qualifying spots.

*Stats from here assuming the Championship is 400 teams.

tl;dr We want more spots and the ideal of equal representation agrees.

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

If someone else doesn't beat me to it, I'll try to put together a graph tonight (no promises; finals week and all).

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Here are the totals (as of noon today 386 teams) by country:

1 ----- Australia
2 ----- Brazil
20 ---- Canada
5 ----- Israel
3 ----- Mexico
1 ----- Taiwan
354 --- USA

-----------------------
By Country/State/Province

# ------ % ----- Country/State
42 --- 10.9% ----- CA
33 ---- 8.5% ----- MI
29 ---- 7.5% ----- NY
20 ---- 5.2% ----- TX
17 ---- 4.4% ----- WA
16 ---- 4.1% ----- FL
14 ---- 3.6% ----- Canada-ON
13 ---- 3.4% ----- MN
12 ---- 3.1% ----- IN
11 ---- 2.8% ----- CT
11 ---- 2.8% ----- MO
11 ---- 2.8% ----- OH
10 ---- 2.6% ----- WI
9 ----- 2.3% ----- AZ
9 ----- 2.3% ----- MA
9 ----- 2.3% ----- NJ
9 ----- 2.3% ----- PA
8 ----- 2.1% ----- IL
7 ----- 1.8% ----- HI
7 ----- 1.8% ----- VA
6 ----- 1.6% ----- GA
6 ----- 1.6% ----- MD
6 ----- 1.6% ----- NC
6 ----- 1.6% ----- OR
6 ----- 1.6% ----- SC
5 ----- 1.3% ----- Canada-QC
5 ----- 1.3% ----- Israel
5 ----- 1.3% ----- NH
5 ----- 1.3% ----- OK
4 ----- 1.0% ----- ID
3 ----- 0.8% ----- AR
3 ----- 0.8% ----- CO
3 ----- 0.8% ----- KS
3 ----- 0.8% ----- ME
3 ----- 0.8% ----- Mexico
2 ----- 0.5% ----- Brazil
2 ----- 0.5% ----- LA
2 ----- 0.5% ----- RI
2 ----- 0.5% ----- UT
1 ----- 0.3% ----- AK
1 ----- 0.3% ----- Australia
1 ----- 0.3% ----- Canada-AB
1 ----- 0.3% ----- DC
1 ----- 0.3% ----- DE
1 ----- 0.3% ----- IA
1 ----- 0.3% ----- KY
1 ----- 0.3% ----- NV
1 ----- 0.3% ----- Taiwan
1 ----- 0.3% ----- TN
1 ----- 0.3% ----- WV
1 ----- 0.3% ----- WY

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

217 - I was shocked to not see their name on the list of Michigan teams going to the Championship. They have done so well each year and for members of my teams who have been to the Championship it will probably be weird not seeing them there.

2137 - Our team is very good friends with TORC and discovering that they weren't going was heartbreaking for many of the members on my team. They are the 5th alternate for Michigan. TORC was picked by the 3rd seed alliance in the 3rd round and actually beat our team and advanced to the semifinals. They might have been ranked higher if they had made it to the finals. They were also competing for Chairman's and recieved high praise from many people at the MSC. I expected them to get in one way or another.

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FIRST should release a translational dictionary of a few of the game terms ("Basket" "Ball" "bridge" "balance" "fender" etc) each year if were going to keep adding different countries. That way we can cooperate better.

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Schrodinger's cat seems like it really should've won RAS as well - #4 seed and an innovative new drive system in a team's rookie year really should warrant a ticket to CMP.

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I haven't seen all the teams in FIRST this year, but do know there are a lot of historically successful teams not currently signed up for Championship. Statistically speaking, there are 11 of the top 30 championship teams not attending. This is based on Jim Zondag's "FIRST Championship History Results - 2011". To put it in perspective only 3 of those teams did not attend or make the elimination rounds in 2010, 7 in 2009, 6 in 2008, and 12 in 2007.

The 11 teams are:
177
217
968
71
25
1625
1503
294
3138
40 (Didn't compete in 2012)
188


This is as of 6pm on 4/16. I did not check to see if any of these qualified and have just not been put on the website. Even if there are a couple of these teams that qualified, having a championship without teams like 71, 217 & 968 is a loss for those who are attending and could have seen the amazing machines they build each year. To everyone who is attending, with these 11 teams out of the running, I expect to see some new teams moving up in Zondag's 2012 version of this list! Is it going to be your team?!

-Eric

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

I don't have a graph, but things break down like this:

• Arizona: 9 (842, 1011, 1212, 1828, 2403, 2486, 2844, 4146, 4183)
• Arkansas: 5 (16, 568, 2410, 3937, 4090)
• California: 40, (8, 100, 115, 192, 207, 254, 330, 399, 585, 597, 604, 692, 702, 766, 840, 971, 973, 1266, 1458, 1515, 1538, 1622, 1662, 1671, 1678, 1717, 1868, 2085, 2102, 2339, 3128, 3189, 3255, 3255, 3453, 3476, 3512, 3925, 3965, 3970)
• Colorado: 4 (1583, 2996, 3807, 4055)
• Connecticut: 10 (175, 178, 181, 195, 236, 237, 571, 716, 2067, 3634)
• Delaware: 1 (365)
• District of Columbia (DC): 1 (2914)
• Florida: 16 (79, 86, 168, 180, 233, 744, 801, 1592, 1649, 1875, 1902, 2757, 3410, 3627, 4013, 4379)
• Georgia: 6 (1261, 1311, 1683, 2415, 2974, 4188)
• Hawaii: 7 (359, 2090, 2439, 2460, 3008, 3880, 4218)
• Idaho: 4 (2122, 2130, 3456, 4086)
• Iowa: 1 (525)
• Illinois: 8 (111, 1208, 1736, 1756, 2022, 2704, 2949, 4143)
• Indiana: 12 (45, 234, 461, 868, 1018, 1501, 1741, 1747, 3176, 3936, 3940, 3947)
• Kansas: 2 (1108, 1710)
• Kentucky: 2 (3259, 3259)
• Louisiana: 2 (1912, 4353)
• Maine: 3 (58, 2648, 3930)
• Maryland: 6 (836, 1111, 1629, 2377, 3951, 4099)
• Massachusetts: 9 (69, 125, 126, 190, 246, 839, 3205, 3566, 3927)
• Michigan: 33 (1, 27, 33, 51, 67, 68, 85, 107, 244, 245, 247, 288, 469, 548, 573, 815, 830, 1023, 1504, 1506, 1718, 1918, 2054, 2337, 2474, 2591, 2834, 2960, 3098, 3115, 3322, 3357, 4130)
• Minnesota: 13 (1816, 2169, 2220, 2500, 2512, 1574, 2705, 3018, 3081, 3630, 3747, 4226, 4228)
• Missouri: 11 (1329, 1764, 1985, 1986, 1987, 2164, 2902, 3528, 3784, 4256, 4356)
• Nevada: 1 (987)
• New Hampshire: 5 (151, 1058, 1519, 1831, 3585)
• New Jersey: 10 (41, 293, 555, 714, 816, 1403, 1647, 1676, 2590, 3142)
• New York: 29 (20, 191, 263, 271, 329, 340, 358, 369, 375, 378, 527, 533, 3015, 564, 639, 694, 870, 1126, 1507, 1511, 1635, 1796, 2638, 3173, 3419, 3950, 3951, 4122, 4203)
• North Carolina: 6 (435, 587, 2059, 2640, 2642, 3196)
• Ohio: 11 (48, 120, 128, 144, 279, 1014, 1038, 2010, 2603, 4028, 4269)
• Oklahoma: 5 (932, 1209, 2341, 2395, 3931)
• Oregon: 6 (956, 1425, 1540, 2898, 4043, 4057)
• Pennsylvania: 9 (103, 222, 272, 341, 433, 1143, 1391, 3504, 4031)
• Rhode Island: 2 (78, 1350)
• South Carolina: 6 (281, 342, 415, 1319, 2815, 4083)
• Texas: 20 (118, 148, 231, 457, 624, 1477, 1642, 1817, 2158, 2468, 2881, 2936, 3103, 3310, 3335, 3481, 3847, 3999, 4206, 4300)
• Tennessee: 1 (4264)
• Utah: 2 (3230, 3245)
• Virginia: 6 (384, 611, 1033, 1262, 1885, 4394)
• Vermont: 1 (116)
• Washington: 17 (360, 488, 492, 1778, 1983, 2046, 2471, 2517, 2522, 2557, 2928, 3574, 3711, 3860, 3968, 4082, 4089)
• West Virginia: 1 (2614)
• Wisconsin: 10 (269, 537, 706, 1306, 1714, 1732, 2062, 2194, 2826, 4021)
• Wyoming: 1 (3288)
  
• Canada (Alberta): 1 (4334)
• Canada (Quebec): 5 (296, 2626, 3530, 3981, 3990)
• Canada (Ontario): 14 (610, 771, 772, 781, 1114, 1219, 1241, 1305, 2056, 2200, 2809, 4001, 4069, 4372)
• Canada (Total): 20
  
• Brazil: 2 (1382, 1772)
  
• Israel: 5 (1574, 1690, 1937, 3083, 4320)
  
• Australia: 1 (3132)
  
• Mexico: 3 (3158, 4262, 4403)
  
• Taiwan: 1 (4253)

Sorry this post is so long. A LOT of data to look at.

Edit: Darn. Mark McLeod beat me to all the numbers -_- ah well. These are here for anyone who wishes to see them.

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

Michigan is clearly under-represented.
/sarcasm

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

By my count, 13 California teams bought themselves in, 23 qualified at California events, 4 qualified at out of state or out of country events, and 2 pre-qualified. Additionally, one out of state team qualified at a California event. There were 5 regionals in California.

254 both pre-qualified and qualified at a California event. 971, 604, and 1717 qualified at two California events.

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

We aren't listed on the FIRST website yet, but rest assured that Team 25 will be joining the fray at the championship after qualifying this past weekend.

I agree with the others who have posted so far that the championship will definitely feel different without many of the traditional powerhouse teams in attendance.

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

So, I just want to throw my 2 cents into the hat, taking a "Devil's Advocate" side to things.

A lot of people are expressing gripes over traditional powerhouses at champs this year. I understand that. Championships is where the best of the best are supposed to gather, and teams like 177, 217 and 71 are some of the best in history. I get having champs without former world champions at the championship event is a little sad. I get not having some of the most legendary teams at champs is a little sad. But, what I'm getting at here, is maybe it's time for a change?

For the past few years, champs has had a lot of consistent powerhouse teams doing what they do best: win. For the past 6 years, 177 gets to Einstein, teams like 217 and 71 run things in their divisions. You get a familiar crowd on Einstein because the ones that make it to Einstein are the best in our competition, and are never far from regional gold. What if it's time for a changing of the guard, so to speak? Now that some of the powerhouses aren't attending champs this year, maybe it's going to give a new generation of FRC teams a chance to step it up. To date, if I recall correctly, 1114 is the youngest team to have ever won the world championship, starting in 2003. I think it's going to be a year where a younger generation of FRC teams steal the show. Teams who have never had a shot at the big one may finally get it. The result could be a new level of competition, as teams gain the experience from serious competition.

I'm not saying I'm happy these teams are missing out. I love watching those teams compete against the best in the world because they are the best. I just don't think it's right to say that, because those teams missed out on champs, the system is flawed. I think it means it's time to look out for some fresh blood to get their shots at the big time.

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

I don't think there's a flaw in the system--aside from the highly limited number of open slots (a number sure to diminish or disappear in coming years), the criteria to punch your ticket to St. Louis are clear. We've been on the wrong side of that once, and no excuses--the train stopped at Palmetto that year.

But your point is valid: There's room at the top, perhaps more so than any time in recent memory. We certainly hope to knock 1114 off their highest-number-to-win-Einstein perch. :)

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

If anything, this is the year for that to happen. Not only from the attendance list, but also because of the game. There are so many great robots this year that it isn't cut and clear who will win because strategy plays such an important role in the game (obviously, it plays a huge role in any game, but this year it seems to be what causes the number of upsets, turnarounds, excitement etc). In additon, tha ranking system plays a big role. Typically, the best teams make it to the top because they are, well, the best; this year seems to balance out the rankings, spread out a lot of high quality teams and make eliminations exciting. So, as you said, I think it is definitely time for some new powerhouses to rise up.

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

I don't think its time for fresh blood necessarily, I think it is just time for more blood. There are a lot of up and coming teams but I don't think they will overthrow the great teams already up there, just join the teams we all consider great.

I think it is just somewhat sentimental/sad that 71, 188 217, 177, 968, 910, 1625, 1503 and more won't be attending because we have looked up to them over the years and were looking forward to competing with them. We all have off years it happens.

Which is why my goal is be in St. Louis next year because I'm sure those teams won't stay home two years in a row! ;)

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

4294 still has not registered for Championships. 217 may be able to go at this rate, but it would be nice if 4294 could confirm if they will be attending or not.

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

I do have to say that team 862 deserves a spot. Team 862 pick our team twice throughout the 2012 season, so hats off our alliance captain, you honestly deserved to go.

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

If they can get past 67, 1114, 2056, 987, 341, 469, 16, and all the established powerhouses that WILL be there and will undoubtedly be tearing up their divisions!

There are really great robots mentioned in this thread like 1771, 2168, 2481, and others that were very very close to winning the regionals they went to as high alliance captains and high picks. These teams deserve so much more credit than they are getting in this thread. Then there are teams like 217 and 71 that are mentioned constantly - people are surprised they are not going because of how well they performed in previous years. But you have to build a new robot each year, and compete in a new game each year.

Notice that the title of this thread is "Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition". It's just strange how many people are listing previous years' performances as evidence that teams' 2012 robots are the best. Unless we're talking about robots over all the years, in which case I nominate 71's 2002 robot, 25's 2006 robot, and 1114's 2008 robot as the best robots not at Championship.

I'm sure great teams like 217 and 71 and 177 will continue to make great machines and will qualify for Champs next year!

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

Definitely, but that doesn't mean there isn't room for newer teams to get their chance. I think 67, 341 and 2056 are definitely the top 3 contenders in my book (in no particular order) but each alliance has 3 teams and there is enough room for new faces. To me, 3138 in 2010 is a great example of how new teams can be just as capable. I'm not saying that the teams you mentioned won't dominate (because they have already done so and will continue to do so this season), but I just think this is a great game for teams outside the traditional list of powerhouses to show their worth.

Interestingly enough, this was the first year the game manual was translated. A French version was made available at kick-off to our teams in Quebec. It was a neat process to ensure the integrity of the game was protected, and paved the way for setting up FRC to truly go global. It wasn't easy, nor cheap, but the outcome of the effort was truly amazing!

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

This. I'm not worrying about what will happen to 71, 177, 217, etc.
I know they'll work extra hard next year to make some magic happen. Why? We've been there before. We couldn't buy our way out of the semifinals at any of our competitions in 2010 due to design decisions, bad strategy, bad scouting data, etc, and without our HOF spot, we wouldn't have qualified for champs that year. Not wanting a repeat of breakaway, we worked our butts off the next year and it paid off.

Every team (or business), has some off years every once in a while. You just have to accept that teams have strategy errors, make design mistakes, or have purely bad luck.

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

Almost the same story for us in 2010 (except for HOF spot). For us, 2010 is "The year that we will not speak of".Two finalist medals and struggles with design issues left us with a decision. We actually burned ourselves out trying to design and build a way to hoist 2 robots up with us and in the end ran out of time and energy to lift even our robot up. We (the whole team)asked ourselves if we earned the right to take advantage of our wait list selection that year or if we should stay home and focus on the next year...the team voted to stay home. The point is, everybody has some years better or worse than others and it's hard to say if a team "deserves" to go to CMP or not. Who knows, maybe some of the great teams listed in this thread would come to the same decision we did...or not;)

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

You know... looking at the list of championship and thinking of legendary teams like 71,177, and 217 not being in attendance makes me sad.

... BUT! There is always IRI ... :rolleyes:

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

Finally! I didn't realize there was a French manual provided this year, because it wasn't linked on the FIRST website, and wasn't obvious on the Robotique FIRST Québec site either. (Here it is, if anyone's interested.)

Of course, this means there are potential consistency issues between versions, mainly because the French versions don't incorporate the updates. After a quick look, apart from some relatively minor numerical glitches (SI conversions are worthwhile, but need to be rounded appropriately), it looks very well translated.

Hopefully this will continue. No doubt this makes explaining game- and robot-related issues in French so much easier, because there's no need to invent translations of terms of art on the fly!

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

Two things I'd like to mention that I'm somewhat surprised that it hasn't been brought up yet.

Some of these team which could possibly miss just didn't perform as well as past years. One team which I'll specify as an example, 217 (because generally they are a prime example of how a team should be structured and a robot be designed, and we as a team frequently look to them for inspiration), just wasn't on their A+game this year. And it wasn't just me that felt this way, but multiple mentors AND students on my team as well as other teams I talked to in queue before matches during strategy. They had a few problems mechanically (which usually never happens) and there was a time or 2 where sitting in the stands, I wasn't sure what their game-plan was (when it's usually obvious since their winning by 20). Did they do bad by any means? Absolutely not. My team would've paid to do as well as they did this year (but that was our problem; we were underfunded). Any previous year, my team would have had zero chance of beating them in the playoffs. But this year it happened. The last time of which, I can't remember.

Chances are, they're going to regroup during the off season and come back next year better than ever. Good for them. I bet they'd rather take a year off and then win the Championship next year than have 2 year of getting eliminated in the division playoffs.

The next thing is in regards to St. Louis. As stated before, with FIRST growing, and there being only a finite number of teams able to be crammed into a venue, the allocation of teams is going to have to become more specific. I like how the District events do it, where a set # of teams will qualify regardless. Also mentioned is the excessive # of teams that buy their way in. But this is where I may differ with a few of you.

Things are starting to look up for my team in the coming year (financially, team size, organization), and we will probably be able to afford going to the Championship for the fist time since 2004 (and even then we went in debt to go). Only 4 of our current mentors have ever competed out of the state; none of the students. It would be nice if we could secure a spot before the season started, so we could worry about other things, such as build, community service, etc.

Now (don't get me wrong) I wouldn't mind fewer teams being able to buy their way in, AS LONG AS there are stricter regulations as to who's allowed to do such (maybe a "you MUST have missed X number of years to qualify", X>1). This ensures that every team will get the opportunity to go at some point in a 4 year interval without taking away from the teams who deserve to go based on team/robot performance. Heck, maybe even offer some kind of assistance to teams that have missed for a really long time, say 5+ years. That way, everyone gets to have a taste of the atmosphere at some point.

I know outside of the online streams, I sure haven't. And FIRST is more than about the competing; that's why the highest award has nothing to do with wins and loses. It's about community.
PS: Sorry for the long post everybody --> had alot to get off my mind.

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

While I'd love if this were still true, it simply is not. This year, FRC has 2,343 teams. Not even accounting for growth, there is no way any venue we've ever been at could hold each team every 4 years (1/4 every year, 585/year). And in addition to not accounting for growth, this also isn't accounting for repeat auto-bids or any repeat qualifiers.

A procedure such as this would inherently take away from teams deserving to go based on team/robot performance. You've have to get down to the 70% mark to even fit in the current venue, and around...well, where we are now, to allow for even most of the merit qualifications.

Making the buy-in rules stricter (teams buy-in less often) would be nice, but why buy-in at all? Traveling is great, but there are other--cheaper--ways to compete out of state besides Worlds.

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

Ha; that's what I get for trying to do math at 5 in the morning.

So you wouldn't get every team going in a 4-yr period, but you would inevitably have more different teams. My main motivation here is, while other competitions are indeed cheaper and more convenient, no other even has the same atmosphere or scale as the Championship. Simply put, it is an event like no other event. More people should get to experience that, at least once in their career.

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

While I agree that it is great for teams to go and get the experience, our growth is going to start impeding on those buy in slots. It was nice in the past few years to have the ability to buy in after years of not qualifying but as we grow with more regionals I would hate to see qualifying slots from state championships diminish, divisions grow to extreme numbers, or number of matches drop to accomodate buy in teams.

I'm not saying here and now this is a problem, I think we are ok at the moment, but in the next 5 years what will the expansion of the FRC program look like in #of teams, regionals, and district systems? What growth have we seen in the last 5 seasons?

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

I speak for all of team 125 when I say we are extremely disappointed our friends from 2168 are missing out on the Championship. Heartbreaking losses are something we are not unfamiliar with ourselves (Finalists twice last year after losing match 3 of the finals). They will be missed greatly in St. Louis. We are looking forward to playing together with them at Battlecry and the Beantown Blitz.

The same is true for team 177, who built another impressive machine. To see their run stopped at this point is unfortunate.

From a New England perspective, these 2 stand out the most for me.

-Brando

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

Preface: I was on a team that went to the Championship from 2004-2010 on the open registration system and I do believe that it is a VERY inspirational experience for any student that gets to go regardless of the teams performance. That being said, I believe more often than not, teams like the one I was on actually dilute the CMP experience because they aren't 'Championship Caliber Machines'.

Here's an idea - it's not perfect - but it might help alleviate some of the issues with the current CMP model.

1) Move to a points system qualification method for the Championship Similar to those in MAR and FiM. These systems have both been shown to work as those teams with consistently 'good' performances are awarded spots at the Championship. The Winners* of any Given Regional would get an Auto-Bid to the Championship as they do now, along with EI, RCA and RAS. (MAR and FiM would continue to qualify as they do now)

2) Eliminate Pre-Qualification (Open Registration) for the Championship with the exception of HOF, Previous Year's World Champions and The Original and Sustaining teams from 1992. (If you look at most of these teams they'd qualify for the Championship anyway.)

3) Any Remaining Spots At the Championship after Spots are Awarded to those outlined in #1 and #2 will be awarded based on the points system (#1) to fill the Championship. This Should Come out to at least 100 spots in a 400 Team Championship if current trends continue for the foreseeable future.

4) Add an Additional 2 Fields at the Championship (Space becomes an Issue) and call it the 'FIRST Robotics Championship - Exhibition'. Any Team that would like to go to the Championship but has not qualified through #1, #2 or #3 could register for this event. This would be run separate of the traditional 4 Division Championship and would have more of a focus on interaction and inspiration than winning. This Exhibition would be over Prior to Lunchtime on Saturday to allow the teams in attendance to watch Division Eliminations and Einstein.

Here's the logic behind this:

Items #1, #2 and #3 serve to make the Championship 'A Real Championship'. These would allow the best of the best to go to the Championship and compete for the title of World Champion, Championship Chairman's Award Winner, Championship Engineering Inspiration, and Championship Rookie All-Star.

Item #4 addresses the teams who have no interest in competing to be World Champion or another award. A lot of the teams that pre-register now and do not qualify at a later point in the season go to the Championship as a fun trip, to travel, etc. These Teams would still be allowed to go to the Championship under #4, they would just be in their own event - which would prevent them from interacting with top-tier teams on the field, but is better than excluding them from the Championship at all.

Of course, this system wouldn't be perfect and has it's share of issues, a big one of them being space. With a system like this, we'd need space for something like 500-600 FRC Teams at the Championship plus FLL and FTC.

*Some people are advocates of only giving the Alliance Captain and their First Pick a spot at the Championship. I'm not sure if this is the right thing to do or not...

TLDR: Eliminate Pre-reg spots, except for HOF, World Champs and Teams from 1992. Take the now open spots and award them based on a Points System after Regionals are completed. Add an additional Mini-Event for those who want to go to the CMP but aren't competing for anything.

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

List is up to 394 teams now, still no 4294.

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

Now up to 397. 4294 IS included.
There are ALOT of rookies going! 62 to be exact; more than 15% of all the teams.

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

Me want divisions.

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

Agreed.

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

Would you mind posting this breakdown with team numbers?

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

How long till divisions usually come out?

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

I believe they usually come out 2 weeks before Championship? So perhaps they will be out this Wednesday or Thursday.

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

I believe they generally wait until all the teams are confirmed, then line them up numerically and count off 1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4 to make the divisions (which is why SPAM (team 180) was never in the same division as Swampthing (team 179)).

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

That would've been last Wednesday or Thursday (2 weeks before)

My money is on Thursday afternoon.

-Brando

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

I didn't keep track of the team numbers, however, it's not that hard to get the data yourself. Just sort the championship team list by location to get the California teams, and click on the team number to get the info page that includes awards

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

This guy explains our situation quite well.

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

It looks like divisions were posted on a Friday last year, but they also had an extra week before Championships.

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

I'm pretty sure they dismissed this method a few years ago. They now use other algorithms to derive the division breakdowns.

Cass

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

Source or anything?

Just the other day my mentor told me they do the 1-2-3-4 method.

Then again, his senior year in FIRST was 2006.....

If someone else could shed light on this that would be awesome!

-Duke

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

While I would love it if they still used this method, because we could then see division immediately without them being released, they have switched to other methods.

Last year it was goofy and instead of 1, 2, 3, 4, it went like 1, 1, 2, 3, 4, 4 and so on (that's not what it was I'm just giving an example). Because my team was in the same division as the team in line next to us, if that makes any sense.

Cass

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

Yeah, that makes sense.

Is there any reason why FIRST doesn't randomize or at least pseudo-randomize it? Because i find it kind of lame that Team x most likely will not be in the same division as Team X + 1.

The only reason i see avoiding true randomness is because you could have a ton of rookies in one division, and vice versa.

The most logical solution to me seems to be something like this:
Take these 16 teams (random teams that came to mind):
1
33
67
71
111
254
461
573
1024
1501
2056
2337
3098
3138
3478
4001

---------
Take clusters of 4, from least to greatest:
Cluster A
1
33
67
71

Cluster B
111
254
461
573

Cluster C
1024
1501
2056
2337

Cluster D
3098
3138
3478
4001

----------
Now, randomize the order in each cluster:

Randomized Cluster A
67
33
71
1

Randomized Cluster B
461
111
254
573

Randomized Cluster C
1501
2056
2337
1024

Randomized Cluster D
3478
4001
3098
3138

----------
Now apply the 1-2-3-4

Division A
67
461
1501
3478

Division B
33
111
2056
4001

Division C
71
254
2337
3098

Division D
1
573
1024
3138
-----------

Now, you can't really compare the skill levels of the divisions to like/dislike this method, because i just picked random teams that came to mind. However I think you get the idea.

Thoughts?

-Duke

Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition
 

They randomize it. I'm pretty sure the past couple years nobody has been able to figure out the algorithm they used to determine which teams are in which division.