Re: Alliance Selection System
 

That makes a lot more sense. From what I've seen, no matter which method of alliance selection is done, like you said, cheating could exist.

Re: Alliance Selection System
 

The goals for eliminations, in my mind, need to be:

1. Maximize Excitement of Matches
2. Reward Teams for Seeding High
3. Minimize Blowout Matches

The reasons for this are simply that anything other than this makes it less fun for students. Ultimately the reason we are doing a competition is because it is fun for students and gets them excited.

Re: Alliance Selection System
 

The Cow Town ThrowDown did serpentine outside top 8 last year. Here's the link. It worked out pretty well from what I remember. They also did IRI rule's.

Re: Alliance Selection System
 

Which is exactly why I threw down that gauntlet with a challenge to come up with something better. I don't know if it's possible either.


I think with the serpentine, we've got the same problem as democracy: It's the worst system, except for all the others.

What if there were only 7 alliances? The number 1 alliance would receive a bye due to their qualification match preformance.

Re: Alliance Selection System
 

At the St. Louis regional we (1985) ended up ranked sixth because our opponents couldn't or wouldn't balance on the coop bridge for a number of our matches. One of the teams were posting offensive power ratings and by the end of qualifiers we were actually rated higher offensively than the number 1 seeded team. They picked us for thier first pick because they knew this also, and we went on to win the region with a rookie team as a thrid member.

At the world championship last year, on Galileo, some of the best teams did not make the top 8 seeds. They were quickly picked by the top 8, but like us, they lost matches due to being placed with teams that couldn't perform well in the qualifiers.

The ranking systems and final alliance selection processes are not perfect, but if the goal is only to have the 'Best' teams have a chance at winning, then I think you would have a lot of teams get discouraged and drop out.

The goal of FIRST is to promote science, engeneering and math in a fun way. To have an underdog have a chance of making it all the way helps encourage new teams and teams that don't have as good mentors and designs to still participate and learn.

Re: Alliance Selection System
 

I agree with the style of drafting that plays out now. All of the alliances are balanced out. The 1st alliance going up against a number 5 alliance with Exploding Bacon(1902), Mars(1523), and Voltage(386) is a scary thought.

To Klutz, our second pick was not undeserving of what they won. 40 out of 42, winning one match, does not mean anything in the ranking system that FIRST has set up. Their system is simply the easiest way for teams to be ranked. If competing with SPAM for the last four years has taught me anything, it is how important scouting is. While Team 3627 may have only won a single match, they balanced 10/11 times. Their drive team is incredible, and most importantly in this year's game, they can balance. This is something that FIRST can miss.

Thanks to the serpentine draft, deserving teams are able to compete against other deserving teams for a chance to go to St. Louis. Without scouting though, you very well might see teams just picking the highest ranked team that is left. Now there is something to think about, Who is more deserving? A team that performs better when isolated out thanks to scouting data? Or a team with whom the FRC qualifier selection gods favor?

It is hard to make a competition in which everyone wins, but this style does better in guaranteeing that everyone has a chance (all bets are off when Daisy picks Pink, but that is besides the point). I personally like the district style, where the top number of teams get to advance from the state championship to the FIRST championship.

Re: Alliance Selection System
 

Here's my idea. Reorder the top eight seeds as follows: starting with the first seed and ending with the seventh seed, allow the teams to pick which slot to pick from. Proceed with serpentine draft as currently

I imagine most of the time, teams will want to retain the ranking they earned from the qualification matches. However, there will be the occasional time that a team feels it may benefit more from an earlier pick of a 2nd robot and choose to captain one of the alliances in the lower half of the bracket.

Re: Alliance Selection System
 

At the Ruckus offseason event, the Alliance selections were modified:
1,2, and 3 couldn't pick anyone in the top 4, though the selection turns went right back to #1 after #8's first pick.

Re: Alliance Selection System
 

If some team wants to allow me to rank higher than them by not playing up to their potential, I can only say THANK YOU!

Re: Alliance Selection System
 

How many ways can a team get to CMP?
Win a regional (3 teams per regional)
RCA (1 team per regional)
REI (1 team per regional)
Previous year champion (3 teams)
Previous year EI (1 team)
CCA (15 teams)
Original, sustaining team (7 teams)
RAS (1 team per regional)
Any veteran team that did not compete in previous year CMP (1,000 ish teams)
Any veteran team that did compete in previous year CMP, and the event is not full (1,000 ish teams)
FiM and MAR points system (TBD teams)

Of all the ways to punch a ticket to St. Louis in April, only three of them have anything to do with winning this year. For non-rookie teams, that's less than one percent. I think FIRST has made it clear that competition is fun, winning should be celebrated, but for cryin' out loud, it's not about the robots.
Draft 1-8, 1-8, or draft serpentine, or draw names out of a hat. It doesn't really matter. IMO the primary goal of FIRST competitions is to put on a show that is exciting, inspiring, entertaining, and accessible. Of the models put forth so far, 1-8 8-1 theoretically gives the most even, exciting, stimulating elimination rounds. For three-team alliances, it's historically the best way to do it (within the realm of FRC regional events)

Re: Alliance Selection System
 

I agree with this - the teams that earned higher seeds should have the right to choose whatever positions they want. Teams shouldn't be penalized for having higher seeds, and if they prefer a higher-numbered alliance over a lower number, they shouldn't have to tank to get one.

How would adding in new alliance captains work, though?

Re: Alliance Selection System
 

Folks,
For our local robotics competition held each fall for about 20 Oakland County Teams, we used coin flipping to decide the final number of teams that could not pick each other in order to randomize the possible top number of alliance captains and prevent "sabotaging" of the two-team alliance selection process.

Applying the same concept to FIRST, assuming Michigan District event with 40 teams, perhaps the top 12 (10-16) qualifying teams are called in, given a coin, and all coins are flipped at same time. Number of heads or tails selected sets the number of top teams that cannot choose each other. If number > 8, top 8 alliance captains cannot choose each other.

Just one more idea to add some spice to this thread.