Possible Lower Scores on Einstein?
 

Through out the year our team and many other have been having problems with ball variables. I have also talked to other teams that have been having this similar problem, do you think it will affect the championship on einstein. With the einstein field being brand new with brand new balls do you think this will result in lower scores? Let me know what you think?

Re: Possible Lower Scores on Einstein?
 

I would hope that the teams planning on being on Einstein will have some sort of setting on their calibrations for "Brand New Balls". But I think you're right, it will negatively impact scores.

Re: Possible Lower Scores on Einstein?
 

I don't believe that the scores on Einstein will be lower because of the ball variables. I know that some of the top tier teams have shooters that rely so little on compression that it would be surprising if a new ball gives them so much trouble. For example, Team 16, who will probably be making an appearance on Einstein, have a catapult of holy accuracy. Catapults tend not to be so swayed by compression. Then there are the shooters like Team 1986 who, if I've been hearing right, only use about a quarter of an inch of compression. Which, in turn, you can get out of a new ball easily.

All in all, I don't think that scores will be necessarily lower because of ball compression. However, with the state of defense that will probably be played, as well as only making shots when they're absolutely sure they can make it (since balls scored are returned to the opponent) shooting may slow down somewhat. As well, the score might be lower due to teams devoting just a hair too much time to balancing.

For a good example (albeit rather saddening), watch the Michigan State Championships Finals Match 2 video for a low scoring final.

Re: Possible Lower Scores on Einstein?
 

If the balls are all brand new, the scores should be good.

Shot repeatability is typically not a concern as long as the balls are close to each other in stiffness. Where teams have problems is when they start introducing new balls at the end of a competition, so you have a mix of brand new balls and very old balls. If every ball on Einstein is brand new, I think teams will roll their shooter calibration back to the "brand new" setting and everything is fine.

Re: Possible Lower Scores on Einstein?
 

It is certainly not a problem to be ignored. New balls do behave differently in many ways. Most teams that have experienced elimination rounds as the #1 or #8 alliance got the best crack at new balls, and either learned how to deal with it, or didn't advance. We have dealt with this issue in each of our previous two tournaments and have come across some very specific solutions that we will hapily share with our alliance partners.

PS: At the beginning of the season we saved back a half-dozen or so balls in pristine condition to observe and manage these differences. It's nice to work with team members who have a great deal of forsight. ;)

Re: Possible Lower Scores on Einstein?
 

I believe new balls have been introduced for the elimination rounds at most events, so most teams who played in eliminations should be already be aware of this issue.

Re: Possible Lower Scores on Einstein?
 

While it is true that new balls behave differently I'm sure the teams that make it that far have figured out ways around those issues like our team did. Used balls are much more inconsistent the more they get played with because they get chewed up and have giant gashes in them causing weird trajectories.

I'm pretty sure we will be seeing some very high score on Einstein. Maybe not the highest of the season but they will be nothing to laugh at!

Re: Possible Lower Scores on Einstein?
 

Shooting from half court?
Sure, the ball variations might matter.

But from our money shot touching below the key?
We don't care and it doesn't matter.

Backspin is everything. Teams that have none will have issues.

Re: Possible Lower Scores on Einstein?
 

As has been stated before, new balls are generally introduced at the beginning of elims and I'm sure that the championships will do the same thing... so if teams have too many problems with brand new balls, they probably won't be on Einstein!

Re: Possible Lower Scores on Einstein?
 

Some teams with shooters might care about the condition of the balls.... ;)

Re: Possible Lower Scores on Einstein?
 

Out of all the balls we have, there were probably two balls--one that was just ridiculously soft and one that was, strangely, soft on only one side--that went far shorter than any others. The rest of them showed little difference. As mentioned earlier, shooters which have more compression on the ball may be more likely to suffer, but it wouldn't surprise me if some teams actually find a way to account for firmness. It is Einstein, after all.

Re: Possible Lower Scores on Einstein?
 

I'd be very surprised of an alliance doesn't try a pure ball starvation strategy on Einstein... and is successful.

Particularly if it's the alliance with the stronger hybrid, and the faster triple-balance.

Kind of hard to score a lot of points when there's only 3 balls on the field...

Re: Possible Lower Scores on Einstein?
 

You mean 1 ball!

Re: Possible Lower Scores on Einstein?
 

At the granite state regional they put new balls in during eliminations and it really messed us up as we would shoot high so to fix this for championship we programmed a button on the controls to lower the speeds for the shooter.

Re: Possible Lower Scores on Einstein?
 

18 balls - (3 x 3 alliance robots) - (2 x 3 human players) - (2 left on alliance bridge) = 1 ball.

Winning strategy. Score 48 in auto including co-op bridge, alliance shoots the 9 held balls with 35 seconds to spare for 27 more points, then spends last 30 seconds triple ballancing for 40 points.

Teleop is nearly a wash unless their is some ball stealing involved. Holding those balls right before the time when teams need to concentrate on the bridges could work.

Re: Possible Lower Scores on Einstein?
 

I expect to see Titanium on Einstein play a 115+pt match.

Re: Possible Lower Scores on Einstein?
 

Better start tracking OPRs for human players!

If this plays out, those starved balls need to be turned into human thrown buzzer beaters.

What a way to decide Einstein... if both alliances decide to starve.

Both triple balance, and there's a wealth of balls in the hands of the human players with <30 seconds left...

P.S. I'll never get any work done... this thread has made me revise my pre-scouting pick list AGAIN... Alliances running this strategy only need to shoot twice the entire match: once in hybrid, and once near the end of the match before triple balancing. Strong hybrid, excellent ball-pickup, steady high-percentage shooters immune to heavy defense, fast triple balancing, and a human player who can make shots.

Re: Possible Lower Scores on Einstein?
 

I would have to say, that would be an uneventful Einstein if it were to happen, but this is the top level. Starving is expected to happen, but I would imagine an inbounder that is good at the cross barrier pass will be high in demand.

Re: Possible Lower Scores on Einstein?
 

Why can there be only one ball on the alliance bridge? I see no reason why robots can't "store" more balls on the alliance bridge... It may not be easy to do, but it is both legal and feasible.

Re: Possible Lower Scores on Einstein?
 

Ball density certainly effects how it is thrown. But I think most Einstein bots will have ways to compensate for the balls. Lower scores will probably be due to the robots tiring out or stress on the drivers part.

Re: Possible Lower Scores on Einstein?
 

I've also seen robots guard balls in their own alley. If an opposing alliance robot tries to take one, boom! <G25>.

Especially since teleop scoring is the 4th order sort for seeding, I could see this being employed on A,C,G, and N - not just Einstein. A strategy-minded, quick-balancing rookie could make a lot of noise this way.

Re: Possible Lower Scores on Einstein?
 

This whole ball starvation strategy is a red herring.

Human players are GOOD and getting balls back across the field under the assumption they're not under a time crunch. Yet bots on Einstein will be GOOD at making rapid shots (think about the 2056-1114 pair with their back-and-forth shots).

Here's a partial strategy from my playbook, codenamed "Bunker Buster Bomb":
Scenario: Ball starvation strategy, 5-6 balls behind each player station, other balls are scarce.
1.) Our human players slam our balls across the field in rapid succession
2.) Our alliance rapidly scores 6 balls from 2 bots, concurrent with step 1
3.) The 2 bots that scored split up: 1 bot goes for the balls that crossed the field, 1 bot blocks the opponent's throwing lane
4.) 3rd bot scores 3 balls, concurrent with step 4

Probable points in 20 seconds from a MSC/MAR-esque finals alliance: 24, plus penalties because the opponents didn't get balls out in time or had more than 2 balls/player.

I seriously doubt the bots will be hungry for long. The alliance that starts this sequence first has the upper hand.

Re: Possible Lower Scores on Einstein?
 

It's an interesting concept, but only a very select few robots would be able to pull off a bridge-hoarding strategy. How many bots are even setup to be able to place balls onto a bridge? Even if the hoarding is a success, wouldn't it eventually necessitate even more time for a bridge balance in order to clear the balls off the bridge first?

Re: Possible Lower Scores on Einstein?
 

Not to mention it may be worth the 3 point penalty to tip an opponent's bridge just to get all of the hoarded balls off and to your own side.

Re: Possible Lower Scores on Einstein?
 

9 points. With the simple solution being to defend your own bridge and force G28s as well as G25s.

Re: Possible Lower Scores on Einstein?
 

Nope. The hoarded balls don't have to be on a balanced bridge.
Consider a robot, probably wide-body, facing its own bridge and tipping the bridge toward it while remaining on the playing floor. Its alliance can pretty much fill this "funnel" full of balls, and especially if the robot is in its own alley, the balls are untouchable without a flood of fouls.

When it comes time to balance, the robot simply backs away, and the other two alliance partners can balance unobstructed from the other side. The first bot can either traverse the bump or climb the coop bridge to the other side.

Even if the opposing alliance get those balls, they'll have to score enough to counter the 40-pt triple balance.

Re: Possible Lower Scores on Einstein?
 

I believe this would be considered controlling more than three basketballs at a time.

I believe the hoarding strategy misses something. The opposing alliance would control at a minimum 10 balls at the start of teleop, assuming you have a good autonomous.

Re: Possible Lower Scores on Einstein?
 

Well, yes, there's that.

Minimum 10? Assuming all robots score all balls during hybrid, that's 6 (two from each team) plus the 2 on the alliance bridge = 8 balls. What did I miss?

Re: Possible Lower Scores on Einstein?
 

+ the two on their alliance bridge

Re: Possible Lower Scores on Einstein?
 

Im looking forward to seeing how a match would turn out like that. I'll admit I'm skeptical to the success of the alliance that deploys this strategy.

Re: Possible Lower Scores on Einstein?
 

I just thought of something... the bridges on Einstein, unlike those everywhere else for the last couple weeks, will be completely new, and I've heard that new bridges can be quite slick. Is that true?

Re: Possible Lower Scores on Einstein?
 

Another variable i just thought of that may affect shooting accuracy, this may not affect it as much because of all the stadium lights are the same but do you think different lighting could affect robots, and do you think they may compensate for this by letting teams calibrate cameras for 15 mins?

Re: Possible Lower Scores on Einstein?
 

In the past, teams who made it to Einstein have been given time to calibrate their cameras on the field before the elimination rounds/award ceremony started. (Or at least they were in 2006 and 2007. Did any team on Einstein between 2008 and 2011 even use a camera? I know there were several teams in 2009 that had it mounted, but I'm not sure if they ever actually made use of it during game play that year--we didn't.)