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-   -   Einstein 2012 (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106034)

Chris86 28-04-2012 19:31

Re: Einstein 2012
 
While the comms situation is very annoying and frustrating, please be considerate when judging possible outcomes. All of the divisional winners are great competitors and any of them could have won.

Robby Unruh 28-04-2012 19:31

All red bots are working! Hoo-rah!

edit: but it looked like Pink died for about 20 seconds... did the bug swap stations or what?

Marc S. 28-04-2012 19:32

Re: Einstein 2012
 
To add to the drama a tornado warning has been issued and at least in th nosebleeder section, we are not allowed to leave the arena.

Kevin Sevcik 28-04-2012 19:33

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Curie curse wins. Pink is stationary for no discernable reason.

Mk.32 28-04-2012 19:33

Re: Einstein 2012
 
233 just died.. [don't know about any others] so isn't just a red problem but came back. What the hell is wrong with this field........

lorem3k 28-04-2012 19:33

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Comm issues hit blue now... Curie Curse strikes again. I'm appalled at this.

Sean Raia 28-04-2012 19:33

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Curie curse trumps all. It literally changed the side of the comm issues to blue

ErikEdhlund 28-04-2012 19:35

Re: Einstein 2012
 
It is really hard to watch all of these matches. It is hard to even consider it a fair competition, and what is worse, the field issues or the Curie curse?

Kevin Sevcik 28-04-2012 19:36

Re: Einstein 2012
 
So to summarize, all we know is that there were 4 robots that seemed to work fine on division fields, and failed to work on Einstein for some reason. But all FIRST knows is that there's 4 robots that consistently didn't work on Einstein, so it must be a problem with the robots.

George Nishimura 28-04-2012 19:37

Re: Einstein 2012
 
I'm not sure what was happening on the red side for about 30 seconds, because the score didn't change. Not sure if that was lag, but I didn't see Spam for a while. Unfortunately, the video feed was focused on Blue so I'm not sure if that was just coincidence or not.

GoSparx 28-04-2012 19:37

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Man, people hit FIRST hard. First is more thw just winning and robots right?

slijin 28-04-2012 19:38

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik (Post 1163405)
Curie curse wins. Pink is stationary for no discernable reason.

Both 207 and 987 cut out for a few seconds during F1 as well.

This is ridiculous.

BHS_STopping 28-04-2012 19:38

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Is it possible that all of the interactions between WiFi enabled devices (smartphones) are creating too much stress on the router? Thousands of devices within range could cause disruptions. I also noticed teams drop out like 1717 during eliminations when there were many people around watching the matches.

I'd like to see what would happen if everyone turned off their devices in the stands. Make an announcement?

HD 28-04-2012 19:40

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Replay Einstein at IRI?

NickTosta 28-04-2012 19:40

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mk.32 (Post 1163406)
233 just died.. [don't know about any others] so isn't just a red problem but came back. What the hell is wrong with this field........

Well, it's not just einstein. I saw something similar happen at the CT regional, and im sure thats not the only one.

Also, my programmer just pointed out that the terrible weather makes an excellent metaphor for the issues on einstein.

JosephC 28-04-2012 19:41

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by plnyyanks (Post 1163400)
Can any of the Newton/Archimedes finalists and post the logs from their Driver Stations after today? Those could prove to be very useful. I'm not sure what kind of logging capabilities the FMS has, so don't know what to do there....

I'll have them up on a few hours

Robby Unruh 28-04-2012 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by hmannn1 (Post 1163417)
Replay Einstein at IRI?

I'd watch the heck out of this.

plnyyanks 28-04-2012 19:47

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by plnyyanks (Post 1163400)
Can any of the Newton/Archimedes finalists and post the logs from their Driver Stations after today? Those could prove to be very useful. I'm not sure what kind of logging capabilities the FMS has, so don't know what to do there....

And I'd also like to see longs from any team that dropped communications on Einstein today. It would be interesting to compare how they logs looked between the division matches and Einstein ones.

miriad 28-04-2012 19:48

As a volunteer that works with FMS regularly- it logs everything. Absolutely everything. Any scoring, robot/ds communications (packet logging, I think), and any problems

George Nishimura 28-04-2012 19:49

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Didn't 118 have a similar problem at CT?

miriad 28-04-2012 19:51

118 did run flawlessly on Newton though, not even the least connection problem.

NickTosta 28-04-2012 19:53

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gnishi2011 (Post 1163424)
Didn't 118 have a similar problem at CT?

Yeah. Never dropped communication once the whole competition once the whole time. In the semifinals they didnt move.

Quote:

Originally Posted by miriad (Post 1163425)
118 did run flawlessly on Newton though, not even the least connection problem.

Yup. Just like CT. Strange, huh?

Oh, and didnt they work perfectly at lone star and the alamo?

Sean Raia 28-04-2012 19:56

Re: Einstein 2012
 
The curse persists. Hey, at least it was a clean match.

JoshSmith 28-04-2012 19:56

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hmannn1 (Post 1163417)
Replay Einstein at IRI?

Definitely. No crazy field issues to ruin the competition. I would consider CNC'ing some awards just for this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JosephC (Post 1163419)
I'll have them up on a few hours

These will be interesting to read. Not sure what logging capabilities have with regards to the field management system. I would like to see the field's logs. I wonder if the cameras and QoS subsystem could have a hand in this huge failure.

lorem3k 28-04-2012 19:58

Re: Einstein 2012
 
At least there were no comm issues in the last match...

Congratulations 16, 25, and 180!

Lil' Lavery 28-04-2012 19:59

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Not a single triple balance on Einstein because half of the robots that would have done were sitting dead. What a joke.

Kevin Sevcik 28-04-2012 19:59

Re: Einstein 2012
 
I wasn't watching every match at LSR, but I didn't hear anything from 118 about comms issues there. Also, did anyone else's webcast die? and right before chairman's!

EDIT: That Curie curse is powerful ju-ju if it took down the entire webcast with it in the loss.

Racer26 28-04-2012 20:01

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Chairmans was already awarded to 1114 at the start of Einstein

Christopher149 28-04-2012 20:01

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Lost the feed on the word 'just'.

George Nishimura 28-04-2012 20:02

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Well, I think that last match showed that the better alliance won the Finals. There were comms problems still. Sigh.

Interesting though that, if I'm not mistaken, not a single triple on Einstein. Mainly due to comms, but even in that last match the blue alliance didn't try it.

I'm not sure how they managed to get 16 as their third pick, but congratulations to 180, 25, 16 for becoming World Champions!

Commiserations to 987/233/207 for being finalists, and 2056/1114/4334 and 118/548/2194 for reaching Einstein!

It wasn't exactly free of problems, and it wasn't the spectacle we all were expecting and hoped for, but the Championship Event itself was pretty amazing to watch. I'm glad I sacrificed my revision to watch it.

Kevin Sevcik 28-04-2012 20:02

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 1075guy (Post 1163433)
Chairmans was already awarded to 1114 at the start of Einstein

K. So I wasn't watching then. Nevertheless, the webcast is down when there's still awards to be awarded.

AmoryG 28-04-2012 20:03

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Congrats to the champs, you deserved it as much as everyone else did who made it to einstein. But honestly, it's a little sad that I payed more attention to the comments on the webcast than the actual matches themselves. *sigh*

Joe G. 28-04-2012 20:03

Re: Einstein 2012
 
987 was dead for part of the last final match

BrendanB 28-04-2012 20:03

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik (Post 1163436)
K. So I wasn't watching then. Nevertheless, the webcast is down when there's still awards to be awarded.

Was it the NASA channel? Reason being that it stopped at 7pm probably because it was scheduled to end before 7 so nasa reserved a slot until then.

plnyyanks 28-04-2012 20:04

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NickTosta (Post 1163418)
Also, my programmer just pointed out that the terrible weather makes an excellent metaphor for the issues on einstein.

I can't see electrical storms being all that good for wifi networks.... Have there been any incidents in the past where the field was downed by weather?

Quote:

Originally Posted by miriad (Post 1163423)
As a volunteer that works with FMS regularly- it logs everything. Absolutely everything. Any scoring, robot/ds communications (packet logging, I think), and any problems

Do you if there's any way we could get at the Einstein FMS logs? y'know... for science?


And everybody, let's try to keep a cool head. I know it's rough emotionally, and it's easy to get carried away. But that's won't solve anything. We're engineers. We fix problems, not complain about them.

Racer26 28-04-2012 20:05

Re: Einstein 2012
 
I'm completely livid.

FIRST should in no way allow this to stand. They should have moved to Galileo field after the first replay.

12 teams come through their respective divisional eliminations without a single comms issue, and come to Einstein, only to have 7 of the 8 matches have at least one robot sit dead for a non-trivial length of time?

Its absolutely unacceptable.

Woodie and Dean were obviously quite upset about it, judging by their faces on the webcast.

The only acceptable way to right this wrong now, that I can think of, is to crown ALL TWELVE teams 2012 Champions.

mjustice66 28-04-2012 20:05

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lorem3k (Post 1163430)
At least there were no comm issues in the last match...

Congratulations 16, 25, and 180!

987 was dead the last 20 seconds or so if they were running they may have been able to score 2 or 3 baskets to take a close victory.

Vince lau 28-04-2012 20:05

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Who won EI?

Ryan Dognaux 28-04-2012 20:07

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 1163431)
Not a single triple balance on Einstein because half of the robots that would have done were sitting dead. What a joke.

Quoted for truth. It's so incredibly sad. These teams put in thousands of man-hours and dedicate an entire season to achieving near robot perfection. And how are they rewarded? With field connection issue. What an embarrassment of a finale that Einstein was, the FIRST community is going to have a lot to say on this one. Why spend the time to compete in this competition if field issues are going to be the downfall of us at one point or another? I know we are in this for more than the robots, but it's incredibly frustrating when the even playing field we are all supposed to be playing on is anything but because of technical issues on FIRST's side.

JohnFogarty 28-04-2012 20:07

Re: Einstein 2012
 
I sat there during Gali's alliance selections going.
25, 180, & 16
THAT'S IT!
THAT'S MY FAVORITE ALLIANCE.
They went all they way too!

Sean Raia 28-04-2012 20:08

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vince lau (Post 1163444)
Who won EI?

Probably the hardest question to answer right now

Racer26 28-04-2012 20:08

Re: Einstein 2012
 
I think FIRST will lose the respect of an awful lot of people if they don't do something to answer to the obvious problems on their highest stage.

Pi Fighter 28-04-2012 20:08

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lorem3k (Post 1163430)
At least there were no comm issues in the last match...

Congratulations 16, 25, and 180!

Two teams, one from red and one from blue, lost comm during the last match. I couldn't see the numbers from my seat, only the comm lights.

Kevin Sevcik 28-04-2012 20:10

Re: Einstein 2012
 
I second Vince. If anyone at the event is reading this thread, could they update us with the EI winner?

Also, the only thing more appropriate than the webcast dying after Galileo wins it all in F2 would be if it died after Curie sends it to a rubber match in F2.

George Nishimura 28-04-2012 20:11

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vince lau (Post 1163444)
Who won EI?

I believe 1629 won it again. It was announced after Chairman's, wasn't it?

sailer99 28-04-2012 20:11

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Does anyone know the firmware on the different robots radios. At GTR West everyone with firmware 1.4 was downgraded to 1.2.1 because of massive connection issues during practice matches.

Normtheman 28-04-2012 20:12

Re: Einstein 2012
 
I was at Einstein and we may have found a reason for the comm problems once a bot hit the red alliance driver station red lost comm.

Racer26 28-04-2012 20:13

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gnishi2011 (Post 1163453)
I believe 1629 won it again. It was announced after Chairman's, wasn't it?

yes.

nighterfighter 28-04-2012 20:14

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Normtheman (Post 1163455)
I was at Einstein and we may have found a reason for the comm problems once a bot hit the red alliance driver station red lost comm.

Loose ethernet?

George Nishimura 28-04-2012 20:15

Re: Einstein 2012
 
It's ironic that the pre-match speeches was about how this is as good as any sporting event, one of the best competitions in the world, and the finals are jeopardized by communications issues. Especially when it's promoting technology.

JackN 28-04-2012 20:16

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Congrats to 25 on joining the two-time champions club. Congrats to 180 and 16 for finally getting a championship victory.

It is infuriating that all of the communications issues throughout eliminations ruined everything and overshadows their well-deserved victory. I thought going through divisional finals 987, 233, and 207 played the best out of anyone

Tristan Lall 28-04-2012 20:17

Re: Einstein 2012
 
What are the chances FIRST will refrain from tearing down the Einstein field until such time as they can run a few simulated matches on it? I'd say there's no time like the present to do some failure analysis, and I suspect there's no shortage of teams that would volunteer their robots for the task.

Once the field is gone, the evidence is gone (or at best, tainted), and it will be that much harder to convince people of the root cause.

(Of course, my congratulations to the winners and all of the runners-up.)

nahstobor 28-04-2012 20:17

Re: Einstein 2012
 
From a Member of the GDC in regards to a question regarding the control system/FMS problems.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etAya...utu.be&t=7m13s

(Please watch the whole video, The link is only to recognize an interesting quote)

Racer26 28-04-2012 20:18

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gnishi2011 (Post 1163460)
It's ironic that the pre-match speeches was about how this is as good as any sporting event, one of the best competitions in the world, and the finals are jeopardized by communications issues. Especially when it's promoting technology.

Its all kinds of embarrassing for FIRST.

They're going to have to answer to it. I don't see how they can not.

Robby Unruh 28-04-2012 20:23

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gnishi2011 (Post 1163453)
I believe 1629 won it again. It was announced after Chairman's, wasn't it?

This is correct-- GaCo 1629. I think this is their second championship EI win, but I could be wrong.

JohnSchneider 28-04-2012 20:24

Re: Einstein 2012
 
1717 had the same problems on newton(as did we) and we compared notes. There is no way it wasn't the field. All other indicators were fine, go into auto, come out, no coms.

Utterly embarrassing.

martin417 28-04-2012 20:44

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Since the advent of the CrIO in 2009, we have found that if we turned the robot on in the queue (as directed by the FTA and volunteers), prior to the FMS displaying our team number, we had issues 100% of the time. If we waited until we were on the field with our team number displaying on the FMS, before we turned the bot on, we had no issues. This has caused friction between our drive team and the volunteers and the FTA at every regional, but especially this year at North Carolina. Every year, we confirm the behavior in front of the FTA in a practice match that if we turned on in queue, without our team number displayed on the FMS, we have many problems, camera issues, encoder and / or gyro issues, loss of comms, or extremely long delay in connecting to the field.

In 2009, at the recommendation of the FTA, our programmer (who is now a programmer for Sony) used a default robot project (in C++) and tried it on the field with the same result, so it is not our code.

For the record, we always program in C++, and use gyros encoders, cameras, and other sensors every year.

Bill_B 28-04-2012 20:44

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boe (Post 1163357)
the other fields have been torn down already

Otherwise they have to pay the handling crew double time for working on Sunday? :rolleyes:

rocknthehawk 28-04-2012 21:12

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by animenerdjohn (Post 1163474)
1717 had the same problems on newton(as did we) and we compared notes. There is no way it wasn't the field. All other indicators were fine, go into auto, come out, no coms.

Utterly embarrassing.

You were not alone. Many times have mentioned this same issue, on other fields. We played through two regionals without an issue. Coming to cmp, we dropped coms 3 or 4 matches. 1 was a failure of our own. We log all our data through the match (mostly to check shot speed)...the FTA couldn't find any issue in our system.


We were told every match to turn our robot on early. I loved the IFI system.


A side note, why is Chairman's not announced last anymore? It seems anticlimactic, especially being the biggest award to win.

Robby Unruh 28-04-2012 21:20

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rocknthehawk (Post 1163533)
You were not alone. Many times have mentioned this same issue, on other fields. We played through two regionals without an issue. Coming to cmp, we dropped coms 3 or 4 matches. 1 was a failure of our own. We log all our data through the match (mostly to check shot speed)...the FTA couldn't find any issue in our system.


We were told every match to turn our robot on early. I loved the IFI system.


A side note, why is Chairman's not announced last anymore? It seems anticlimactic, especially being the biggest award to win.

1114 got sideshow seats on the stage to watch the finals. I imagine this just being a special reward-- aside from winning the CCA, of course.

Botwoon 28-04-2012 21:23

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Does anyone happen to have screencaps of Woody or Dean during the Einstein matches?

Teamcodeorange 28-04-2012 21:26

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rocknthehawk (Post 1163533)
You were not alone. Many times have mentioned this same issue, on other fields. We played through two regionals without an issue. Coming to cmp, we dropped coms 3 or 4 matches. 1 was a failure of our own. We log all our data through the match (mostly to check shot speed)...the FTA couldn't find any issue in our system.


We were told every match to turn our robot on early. I loved the IFI system.


A side note, why is Chairman's not announced last anymore? It seems anticlimactic, especially being the biggest award to win.

We had very similar problems on Archimedes. We died twice, once for the first half of the match, and one for the whole time. I was told by the FTA that it was a problem with our radio. I believed him, but now I am not so sure.

AlecMataloni 28-04-2012 21:27

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Botwoon (Post 1163549)
Does anyone happen to have screencaps of Woody or Dean during the Einstein matches?

I remember watching them shaking their heads in disgust.

Racer26 28-04-2012 21:43

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Robby Unruh (Post 1163546)
1114 got sideshow seats on the stage to watch the finals trainwreck. I imagine this just being a special reward-- aside from winning the CCA, of course.

Fixed it for you.

shawnz 28-04-2012 21:45

Re: Einstein 2012
 
I'd really like to thank all of the field crew and admin for putting up with the obvious technical difficulties on Einstein. Whether they were really field issues or just coincidence (however unlikely), the show certainly went on. Hopefully by tomorrow everyone's nerves will have calmed and we can start appreciating all 12 teams that made it to Einstein for that fact alone, rather than bicker over who had the most optimal showing.

Regardless, congrats to 25/180/16 for a lovely performance and for taking the 2012 CMP banner!

bduddy 28-04-2012 22:07

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AlecMataloni (Post 1163553)
I remember watching them shaking their heads in disgust.

Dean was right up at the edge of the field at times, which I don't think he usually does... also, Woodie seemed really rattled when he was announcing one of the awards (can't remember which one).

Anupam Goli 28-04-2012 22:11

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Woodie seemed to be sweating a lot and his hair was messed up, and he shook a lot during one of those presentations... they had a lot of stress. The best thing we can do is stand behind them and hope they resolve it.

DominickC 28-04-2012 22:13

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Unfortunately, this FIRST season has had a large spike in issues with the FMS at Regionals, and made it's way up to Einstein, delivering a coup-de-gras to the 2012 season. Does anyone else sense major change in the year(s) to come?

I've been using some of the 2000 FRC IFI Control Systems, and I've got to say, they are near bullet proof when they work.

It's very disappointing to see issues like this. I bet that every single team, winner or not, feels cheated out of a fair shot at the Championship. All of the teams were capable of winning, bar any FMS issues.

shawnz 28-04-2012 22:26

Re: Einstein 2012
 
To all those pointing out the reliability of the IFI control system: remember that it was much simpler tech and teams were asking much less of their robots back then (e.g. video streaming).

Gregor 28-04-2012 22:28

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 1075guy (Post 1163442)
They should have moved to Galileo field after the first replay.

Just wondering but why Galileo? :confused: I've seen a few people mention that field as an alternative.

DominickC 28-04-2012 22:29

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by shawnz (Post 1163594)
To all those pointing out the reliability of the IFI control system: remember that it was much simpler tech and teams were asking much less of their robots back then (e.g. video streaming).

You are 100% spot on. It just strikes me as odd how you can have advanced capabilities, or you can have nearly flawless reliability.

Does anyone know why "Code Bonde" was not put in place?

Anupam Goli 28-04-2012 22:29

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregor01 (Post 1163595)
Just wondering but why Galileo? :confused: I've seen a few people mention that field as an alternative.

Galileo had the least amount of comm issues form what I've heard.

dag0620 28-04-2012 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregor01 (Post 1163595)
Just wondering but why Galileo? :confused: I've seen a few people mention that field as an alternative.

Also it was the field closest to Einstein, so it would make sense to go their first.

EagleEngineer 28-04-2012 22:38

Re: Einstein 2012
 
One simple way to keep it fair on einstein, is maybe for next year, if a robot is not moving or has connection issues, they should replay the match (until the issues are fixed). I understand that they replayed the Semis, but the same thing happened in the replayed matches. Another thing maybe is to test out the einstein field with real robots before the actual semis happen, (maybe they did its just a suggestion). Anyway this even though this happened this is a good thing, because there is a good chance that there will be improvements to connectivity and the feild, next year.

DominickC 28-04-2012 22:42

Re: Einstein 2012
 
If they had replayed every match in which a robot was incapacitated for any length of time, I'd be willing to bet we'd still be watching. A new protocol for dealing with these issues should be put in place. The "it's a problem with your robot" explanation isn't sitting well with anyone. This holds true for Regionals and CMP.

Anupam Goli 28-04-2012 22:47

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DominickC (Post 1163606)
If they had replayed every match in which a robot was incapacitated for any length of time, I'd be willing to bet we'd still be watching. A new protocol for dealing with these issues should be put in place. The "it's a problem with your robot" explanation isn't sitting well with anyone. This holds true for Regionals and CMP.

Problem is, it is the robot a lot of the time, or it's the connection between FMS and robot. The FMS rarely bugs out, and usually the wifi is pretty solid. I can't speak for 09 or 10 too much, but the D Links take a lot longer to boot up and seem to brick easily. My team has already been through 2.

EricH 28-04-2012 22:47

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by shawnz (Post 1163594)
To all those pointing out the reliability of the IFI control system: remember that it was much simpler tech and teams were asking much less of their robots back then (e.g. video streaming).

We didn't ask the robots to do video streaming because we knew the hardware couldn't handle it.

The IFI system, if the OI was upgraded to USB, would have been pretty solid for another couple of years (the Flightsticks were getting to be a pain to hook up). Beyond that, it would have needed a major overhaul, which IFI could probably have done just fine. That system could start in seconds, run just about everything needed with 99% reliability if you didn't accidentally get something unplugged (and the 1% typically resulted in a foghorn), and repeat that for a full season.

I think if IFI had been given a chance, they could have certainly risen to the occasion with a higher-performance system.

DominickC 28-04-2012 22:51

Re: Einstein 2012
 
@EricH - As it stands, the IFI system is perfect for running nearly any robotics project that you might want to do. Granted the serial interface is a pain, it's still a fully functional and robust microprocessor. While it won't do what we ask of our cRIO's today, it's earned my respect.

What about the use of an Arduino or similar type microprocessor?

Donovan0217 28-04-2012 22:55

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 1075guy (Post 1163442)
They should have moved to Galileo field after the first replay.

They really couldn't have moved, by the time the matches had even started all of the other fields were torn down.

Ian Curtis 28-04-2012 22:58

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bduddy (Post 1163580)
Dean was right up at the edge of the field at times, which I don't think he usually does... also, Woodie seemed really rattled when he was announcing one of the awards (can't remember which one).

Dean walked through the camera frame visibly shaking his head while Woodie was presenting one of the awards. Dean usually crouches next to the field when he watches matches (one of the benefits of founding the competition I suppose), but he was clearly not having a great time.

I am sure they are just as upset about this, and probably more, than most of the people here. No doubt what happened this weekend will be extensively discussed at FIRST HQ in the coming months.

For those of you that were there, did the non-moving robots suck the energy out of the competition?

bduddy 28-04-2012 23:00

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian Curtis (Post 1163616)
For those of you that were there, did the non-moving robots suck the energy out of the competition?

Oh, yeah. It was back a little bit by the finals, but the reactions during and after the semifinals were some of the most muted I've ever heard, a lot quieter than the divisional finals. I even heard some boos after... the replay of SF 2-1, I think?

Racer26 28-04-2012 23:02

Re: Einstein 2012
 
I will be floored if HQ doesnt post an update on Tuesday directly addressing the shenanigans on Einstein.

Steven Donow 28-04-2012 23:03

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bduddy (Post 1163617)
Oh, yeah. It was back a little bit by the finals, but the reactions during and after the semifinals were some of the most muted I've ever heard, a lot quieter than the divisional finals. I even heard some boos after... the replay of SF 2-1, I think?

From what it seemed, one of the loudest cheers of the evening came when it was after they announced that the bad weather had passed and we were allowed to leave the venue. That says something.

bduddy 28-04-2012 23:04

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stevend1994 (Post 1163620)
From what it seemed, one of the loudest cheers of the evening came when it was after they announced that the bad weather had passed and we were allowed to leave the venue. That says something.

The loudest cheer of all was when they announced that they were going to replay the first two matches. The second-loudest cheer was during the replay of SF 2-1 (I think) when all 3 red robots were moving... for about ten seconds.

Donovan0217 28-04-2012 23:04

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian Curtis (Post 1163616)
For those of you that were there, did the non-moving robots suck the energy out of the competition?

It did, the matches had the potential to be the best of all this year, but fell short of expectations because of the non-moving bots.

Botwoon 28-04-2012 23:07

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bduddy (Post 1163617)
Oh, yeah. It was back a little bit by the finals, but the reactions during and after the semifinals were some of the most muted I've ever heard, a lot quieter than the divisional finals. I even heard some boos after... the replay of SF 2-1, I think?

I definitely heard them. They were entirely justified in my opinion, and that isn't the way it should be.

Racer26 28-04-2012 23:09

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Something tells me the 4 Einstein teams who weren't at IRI last year will get their invites.

Botwoon 28-04-2012 23:14

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 1075guy (Post 1163628)
Something tells me the 4 Einstein teams who weren't at IRI last year will get their invites.

I can confirm the validity of this statement.

Chexposito 28-04-2012 23:15

Re: Einstein 2012
 
That entire sequence of events that occurred on Einstein was hard to watch as a FIRST alumnus. I know myself and several other alumni were very disappoint.

Gregor 28-04-2012 23:16

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chexposito (Post 1163631)
That entire sequence of events that occurred on Einstein was hard to watch as a FIRST alumnus. I know myself and several other alumni were very disappoint.

As was I, watching my first ever Einstein

Racer26 28-04-2012 23:19

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Botwoon (Post 1163630)
I can confirm the validity of this statement.

Sounds like they already have :P.

Chexposito 28-04-2012 23:28

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregor01 (Post 1163632)
As was I, watching my first ever Einstein

We were going to leave early because of the literal injustice we were watching unfold consistently infront of us (and was blatantly ignored). Of course this was the time the dome was quietly going on lock down due to the weather (we were forced to stay by event security).

efoote868 28-04-2012 23:30

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bduddy (Post 1163622)
The loudest cheer of all was when they announced that they were going to replay the first two matches. The second-loudest cheer was during the replay of SF 2-1 (I think) when all 3 red robots were moving... for about ten seconds.

What about when the paper airplanes made it clear across the field?

Steven Donow 28-04-2012 23:32

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by efoote868 (Post 1163646)
What about when the paper airplanes made it clear across the field?

That too...as well as the "waves of varying speed"

Deetman 28-04-2012 23:33

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DominickC (Post 1163611)
@EricH - As it stands, the IFI system is perfect for running nearly any robotics project that you might want to do. Granted the serial interface is a pain, it's still a fully functional and robust microprocessor. While it won't do what we ask of our cRIO's today, it's earned my respect.

What about the use of an Arduino or similar type microprocessor?

Arduinos are great for what they are: a tool to teach people about electronics, instrument some sensors, make lights blink, and multitudes of other cool things but they are severely limited in both speed and memory to perform advanced tasks. I don't have the datasheets in front of me but I doubt that an Arduino is as powerful as the old IFI system.

That said there are multitudes of microcontrollers (and similar devices) out there that are plenty powerful (ARM, PIC, ATMEL/AVR, Freescale, pick an architecture!). What they don't get you is the "plug and play" features that we get with the cRio and associated tool chains that effectively help level the playing field. Instead of figuring out the low level implementation of say vision processing, we get tool chains that "work" out of the box. Sure there is a lot of fine tuning involved to perfect these out of the box utilities but the implementation is there for any team rookie to veteran to use. That is a huge advantage of the current system.

Where I think we are running in to problems as someone mentioned earlier is that no one understands the system top to bottom, controller to FMS and all the components between like they did in the IFI days. Sure, individual subsystems are well understood and characterized but do they all play nicely together? Is the cRio IP stack (implementation) implementing something that isn't compatible with the D-Link? The D-Link to the cRio? The D-Link to the FMS access point? This is the area that seems a bit grey to me and may be contributing to the unexplained issues. 95%+ of issues are easily explained (loose power connector, bad wiring, loose connection etc.), it is the others that are puzzling and I'm not sure have a known root cause. I'm not saying anything unexplained caused the issues on Einstein, just that there appears to be an underlying issue somewhere that can't be pinned down.

bduddy 28-04-2012 23:33

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by efoote868 (Post 1163646)
What about when the paper airplanes made it clear across the field?

Oh, yeah, that was great. The best one was the airplane that cleared the curtain behind the podium by a wide margin!

Were paper airplanes thrown at Atlanta, or is this a new tradition?

aditya29 28-04-2012 23:36

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bduddy (Post 1163650)
Oh, yeah, that was great. The best one was the airplane that cleared the curtain behind the podium by a wide margin!

Were paper airplanes thrown at Atlanta, or is this a new tradition?

Not sure about Atlanta, but it definitely happened last year. Quite a few cheers for the couple that made it down to the field then as well :D

nikeairmancurry 28-04-2012 23:37

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Lets start a petition to replay the elims at IRI. Just to see how they would have played out. No rule changes, let this happen at the end of day 1 so that it gives everyone the chance to see these teams really play.

Chexposito 28-04-2012 23:39

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Not at Atlanta, it was started last year.

Anupam Goli 28-04-2012 23:40

Re: Einstein 2012
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nikeairmancurry (Post 1163656)
Lets start a petition to replay the elims at IRI. Just to see how they would have played out. No rule changes, let this happen at the end of day 1 so that it gives everyone the chance to see these teams really play.

I believe the 4 teams on Einstein that did not apply to IRI were invited already... Let's see if they accept!


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