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Re: Einstein 2012
While the comms situation is very annoying and frustrating, please be considerate when judging possible outcomes. All of the divisional winners are great competitors and any of them could have won.
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All red bots are working! Hoo-rah!
edit: but it looked like Pink died for about 20 seconds... did the bug swap stations or what? |
Re: Einstein 2012
To add to the drama a tornado warning has been issued and at least in th nosebleeder section, we are not allowed to leave the arena.
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Curie curse wins. Pink is stationary for no discernable reason.
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233 just died.. [don't know about any others] so isn't just a red problem but came back. What the hell is wrong with this field........
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Comm issues hit blue now... Curie Curse strikes again. I'm appalled at this.
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Curie curse trumps all. It literally changed the side of the comm issues to blue
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It is really hard to watch all of these matches. It is hard to even consider it a fair competition, and what is worse, the field issues or the Curie curse?
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So to summarize, all we know is that there were 4 robots that seemed to work fine on division fields, and failed to work on Einstein for some reason. But all FIRST knows is that there's 4 robots that consistently didn't work on Einstein, so it must be a problem with the robots.
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Re: Einstein 2012
I'm not sure what was happening on the red side for about 30 seconds, because the score didn't change. Not sure if that was lag, but I didn't see Spam for a while. Unfortunately, the video feed was focused on Blue so I'm not sure if that was just coincidence or not.
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Man, people hit FIRST hard. First is more thw just winning and robots right?
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This is ridiculous. |
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Is it possible that all of the interactions between WiFi enabled devices (smartphones) are creating too much stress on the router? Thousands of devices within range could cause disruptions. I also noticed teams drop out like 1717 during eliminations when there were many people around watching the matches.
I'd like to see what would happen if everyone turned off their devices in the stands. Make an announcement? |
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Replay Einstein at IRI?
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Also, my programmer just pointed out that the terrible weather makes an excellent metaphor for the issues on einstein. |
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As a volunteer that works with FMS regularly- it logs everything. Absolutely everything. Any scoring, robot/ds communications (packet logging, I think), and any problems
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Didn't 118 have a similar problem at CT?
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118 did run flawlessly on Newton though, not even the least connection problem.
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Oh, and didnt they work perfectly at lone star and the alamo? |
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The curse persists. Hey, at least it was a clean match.
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At least there were no comm issues in the last match...
Congratulations 16, 25, and 180! |
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Not a single triple balance on Einstein because half of the robots that would have done were sitting dead. What a joke.
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I wasn't watching every match at LSR, but I didn't hear anything from 118 about comms issues there. Also, did anyone else's webcast die? and right before chairman's!
EDIT: That Curie curse is powerful ju-ju if it took down the entire webcast with it in the loss. |
Re: Einstein 2012
Chairmans was already awarded to 1114 at the start of Einstein
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Lost the feed on the word 'just'.
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Interesting though that, if I'm not mistaken, not a single triple on Einstein. Mainly due to comms, but even in that last match the blue alliance didn't try it. I'm not sure how they managed to get 16 as their third pick, but congratulations to 180, 25, 16 for becoming World Champions! Commiserations to 987/233/207 for being finalists, and 2056/1114/4334 and 118/548/2194 for reaching Einstein! It wasn't exactly free of problems, and it wasn't the spectacle we all were expecting and hoped for, but the Championship Event itself was pretty amazing to watch. I'm glad I sacrificed my revision to watch it. |
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Congrats to the champs, you deserved it as much as everyone else did who made it to einstein. But honestly, it's a little sad that I payed more attention to the comments on the webcast than the actual matches themselves. *sigh*
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987 was dead for part of the last final match
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And everybody, let's try to keep a cool head. I know it's rough emotionally, and it's easy to get carried away. But that's won't solve anything. We're engineers. We fix problems, not complain about them. |
Re: Einstein 2012
I'm completely livid.
FIRST should in no way allow this to stand. They should have moved to Galileo field after the first replay. 12 teams come through their respective divisional eliminations without a single comms issue, and come to Einstein, only to have 7 of the 8 matches have at least one robot sit dead for a non-trivial length of time? Its absolutely unacceptable. Woodie and Dean were obviously quite upset about it, judging by their faces on the webcast. The only acceptable way to right this wrong now, that I can think of, is to crown ALL TWELVE teams 2012 Champions. |
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Who won EI?
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I sat there during Gali's alliance selections going.
25, 180, & 16 THAT'S IT! THAT'S MY FAVORITE ALLIANCE. They went all they way too! |
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I think FIRST will lose the respect of an awful lot of people if they don't do something to answer to the obvious problems on their highest stage.
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I second Vince. If anyone at the event is reading this thread, could they update us with the EI winner?
Also, the only thing more appropriate than the webcast dying after Galileo wins it all in F2 would be if it died after Curie sends it to a rubber match in F2. |
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Does anyone know the firmware on the different robots radios. At GTR West everyone with firmware 1.4 was downgraded to 1.2.1 because of massive connection issues during practice matches.
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I was at Einstein and we may have found a reason for the comm problems once a bot hit the red alliance driver station red lost comm.
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It's ironic that the pre-match speeches was about how this is as good as any sporting event, one of the best competitions in the world, and the finals are jeopardized by communications issues. Especially when it's promoting technology.
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Re: Einstein 2012
Congrats to 25 on joining the two-time champions club. Congrats to 180 and 16 for finally getting a championship victory.
It is infuriating that all of the communications issues throughout eliminations ruined everything and overshadows their well-deserved victory. I thought going through divisional finals 987, 233, and 207 played the best out of anyone |
Re: Einstein 2012
What are the chances FIRST will refrain from tearing down the Einstein field until such time as they can run a few simulated matches on it? I'd say there's no time like the present to do some failure analysis, and I suspect there's no shortage of teams that would volunteer their robots for the task.
Once the field is gone, the evidence is gone (or at best, tainted), and it will be that much harder to convince people of the root cause. (Of course, my congratulations to the winners and all of the runners-up.) |
Re: Einstein 2012
From a Member of the GDC in regards to a question regarding the control system/FMS problems.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etAya...utu.be&t=7m13s (Please watch the whole video, The link is only to recognize an interesting quote) |
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They're going to have to answer to it. I don't see how they can not. |
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1717 had the same problems on newton(as did we) and we compared notes. There is no way it wasn't the field. All other indicators were fine, go into auto, come out, no coms.
Utterly embarrassing. |
Re: Einstein 2012
Since the advent of the CrIO in 2009, we have found that if we turned the robot on in the queue (as directed by the FTA and volunteers), prior to the FMS displaying our team number, we had issues 100% of the time. If we waited until we were on the field with our team number displaying on the FMS, before we turned the bot on, we had no issues. This has caused friction between our drive team and the volunteers and the FTA at every regional, but especially this year at North Carolina. Every year, we confirm the behavior in front of the FTA in a practice match that if we turned on in queue, without our team number displayed on the FMS, we have many problems, camera issues, encoder and / or gyro issues, loss of comms, or extremely long delay in connecting to the field.
In 2009, at the recommendation of the FTA, our programmer (who is now a programmer for Sony) used a default robot project (in C++) and tried it on the field with the same result, so it is not our code. For the record, we always program in C++, and use gyros encoders, cameras, and other sensors every year. |
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We were told every match to turn our robot on early. I loved the IFI system. A side note, why is Chairman's not announced last anymore? It seems anticlimactic, especially being the biggest award to win. |
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Does anyone happen to have screencaps of Woody or Dean during the Einstein matches?
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I'd really like to thank all of the field crew and admin for putting up with the obvious technical difficulties on Einstein. Whether they were really field issues or just coincidence (however unlikely), the show certainly went on. Hopefully by tomorrow everyone's nerves will have calmed and we can start appreciating all 12 teams that made it to Einstein for that fact alone, rather than bicker over who had the most optimal showing.
Regardless, congrats to 25/180/16 for a lovely performance and for taking the 2012 CMP banner! |
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Woodie seemed to be sweating a lot and his hair was messed up, and he shook a lot during one of those presentations... they had a lot of stress. The best thing we can do is stand behind them and hope they resolve it.
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Re: Einstein 2012
Unfortunately, this FIRST season has had a large spike in issues with the FMS at Regionals, and made it's way up to Einstein, delivering a coup-de-gras to the 2012 season. Does anyone else sense major change in the year(s) to come?
I've been using some of the 2000 FRC IFI Control Systems, and I've got to say, they are near bullet proof when they work. It's very disappointing to see issues like this. I bet that every single team, winner or not, feels cheated out of a fair shot at the Championship. All of the teams were capable of winning, bar any FMS issues. |
Re: Einstein 2012
To all those pointing out the reliability of the IFI control system: remember that it was much simpler tech and teams were asking much less of their robots back then (e.g. video streaming).
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Does anyone know why "Code Bonde" was not put in place? |
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One simple way to keep it fair on einstein, is maybe for next year, if a robot is not moving or has connection issues, they should replay the match (until the issues are fixed). I understand that they replayed the Semis, but the same thing happened in the replayed matches. Another thing maybe is to test out the einstein field with real robots before the actual semis happen, (maybe they did its just a suggestion). Anyway this even though this happened this is a good thing, because there is a good chance that there will be improvements to connectivity and the feild, next year.
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Re: Einstein 2012
If they had replayed every match in which a robot was incapacitated for any length of time, I'd be willing to bet we'd still be watching. A new protocol for dealing with these issues should be put in place. The "it's a problem with your robot" explanation isn't sitting well with anyone. This holds true for Regionals and CMP.
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The IFI system, if the OI was upgraded to USB, would have been pretty solid for another couple of years (the Flightsticks were getting to be a pain to hook up). Beyond that, it would have needed a major overhaul, which IFI could probably have done just fine. That system could start in seconds, run just about everything needed with 99% reliability if you didn't accidentally get something unplugged (and the 1% typically resulted in a foghorn), and repeat that for a full season. I think if IFI had been given a chance, they could have certainly risen to the occasion with a higher-performance system. |
Re: Einstein 2012
@EricH - As it stands, the IFI system is perfect for running nearly any robotics project that you might want to do. Granted the serial interface is a pain, it's still a fully functional and robust microprocessor. While it won't do what we ask of our cRIO's today, it's earned my respect.
What about the use of an Arduino or similar type microprocessor? |
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I am sure they are just as upset about this, and probably more, than most of the people here. No doubt what happened this weekend will be extensively discussed at FIRST HQ in the coming months. For those of you that were there, did the non-moving robots suck the energy out of the competition? |
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I will be floored if HQ doesnt post an update on Tuesday directly addressing the shenanigans on Einstein.
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Something tells me the 4 Einstein teams who weren't at IRI last year will get their invites.
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That entire sequence of events that occurred on Einstein was hard to watch as a FIRST alumnus. I know myself and several other alumni were very disappoint.
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That said there are multitudes of microcontrollers (and similar devices) out there that are plenty powerful (ARM, PIC, ATMEL/AVR, Freescale, pick an architecture!). What they don't get you is the "plug and play" features that we get with the cRio and associated tool chains that effectively help level the playing field. Instead of figuring out the low level implementation of say vision processing, we get tool chains that "work" out of the box. Sure there is a lot of fine tuning involved to perfect these out of the box utilities but the implementation is there for any team rookie to veteran to use. That is a huge advantage of the current system. Where I think we are running in to problems as someone mentioned earlier is that no one understands the system top to bottom, controller to FMS and all the components between like they did in the IFI days. Sure, individual subsystems are well understood and characterized but do they all play nicely together? Is the cRio IP stack (implementation) implementing something that isn't compatible with the D-Link? The D-Link to the cRio? The D-Link to the FMS access point? This is the area that seems a bit grey to me and may be contributing to the unexplained issues. 95%+ of issues are easily explained (loose power connector, bad wiring, loose connection etc.), it is the others that are puzzling and I'm not sure have a known root cause. I'm not saying anything unexplained caused the issues on Einstein, just that there appears to be an underlying issue somewhere that can't be pinned down. |
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Were paper airplanes thrown at Atlanta, or is this a new tradition? |
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Lets start a petition to replay the elims at IRI. Just to see how they would have played out. No rule changes, let this happen at the end of day 1 so that it gives everyone the chance to see these teams really play.
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Re: Einstein 2012
Not at Atlanta, it was started last year.
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