Paper Airplanes!
 

That was so cool to watch them just fall from the sky one right after another.

Oh wait... No it wasn't, it was embarrassing.

What's wrong with you guys?

I was down on the floor and was embarrassed. I saw a lot of very VIP's walking around down there.

How would you feel if you just hit your $10-20K sponsor in the head with a paper airplane? Or even the eye? That would really make me want to give more money into the program.

Think before you act people, I mean come on...


/old man rant over

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

I agree with this. It was played off as no big deal when the call for the air force to recruit these people was made, but honestly it could have gone much different. Very few people in the stands and on the floor are wearing safety glasses and if one plane were to hit someone in the eye it could be serious. Flying paper airplanes are fun if everyone knows its happening but most people had no idea they were coming down till they were past them. Beach balls and balloons can't cause blindness that's why they are accepted as a why to add fun to the stands.

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

When I went to my first Championship in 2003, I thought it was pretty inspiring, especially the ones that would make it from the upper tiers of the stands all the way down to the field. And now I work designing passenger jets (but I still make awful paper airplanes). But airplane people like airplanes no matter what size they are, so I suppose we can take that with a grain of salt.

On a technical note, if your airplane makes it to the field I'd imagine you've got a pretty great glide slope so I wouldn't think impaling a sponsor is a big worry. I'd be a lot more worried about ones that crash and burn in the stands and potentially getting someone on another team or a member of the public at large. And I imagine a championship very VIP probably gave a lot more than $20k. ;)

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

I thought it was pretty neat too, however there was a point when it all should have stopped: when there were people speaking.

Especially when the Kamen family was up there at the podium, I saw one that nearly made it to the stage, and while I'm sure they would have laughed it off, I felt that it was extremely disrespectful.

The only time I found it appropriate was post division finals when we were waiting for Einstein to begin.

:'( it's really cool that some kids are really good at making paper planes, but I agree that it isn't the nicest thing, especially for any of the people that get hit by them - they trickle down, they shoot down, and others dive with sharp corners that sting a little bit before you say, "ok, that wasn't so bad".

If you're going to throw one, at least be sure it's half-way decent.

Props to whoever made it out of the cardstock program.

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

Yeah. I swear I thought Jon Dudas was going to say stop throwing those down, because I would have made a comment about it.

While even waiting for Einstein.....paper can still hurt. I was volunteering near the division champ seatings, and a nice lady from a team almost got hit in the eye by one, hit her forehead and she laughed it off.

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

Yeah, I think they should've waited for people to stop talking (like, during down time where no one's playing or talking)... Like that time when everyone started clapping because of some paper airplane when one guy (I forget who it was) started talking, and no one could hear him...

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

I thought it was really cool to see. But Yes, during the speaking they should of stopped. As far as I could tell, they never were going to harm someone because the fast ones were just notebook paper and were soft when they hit. Congrats to those who's made it to the front of the floor seats or farther!

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

I had less of a problem with the ones before Einstein than the ones during, but I wouldn't shed a tear if FIRST put the kibosh on this (however they could).

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

I strongly disagree with these statements, and find it offensive that any sort of encouragement is given to the practice. One of our parents was hit in the back of the head by a plane made out of a FedEx envelope, and it was a very unnerving experience.

It may seem like fun, but this isn't homeroom before the morning bell rings. This isn't Vancouver during the 2011 Stanley Cup Finals. Show some respect! You're throwing projectiles at a crowd of students, teachers, parents, sponsors... and the general public who may be seeing FIRST for the first time. FIRST is better than this, but the students aren't showing it.

During one of the award presentations, the speaker came up and said hello, and the crowd erupted in cheers. Not for him, but for the paper airplane that made it to the field. Why can't we cheer for him instead?

I'm also disappointed that the FIRST announcer didn't make any sort of request to ask that the planes stop. It clearly reached a problematic level, and they ignored the issue.

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

This way we robotics team like to have fun. I remeber doing this last year. But hopfully no one gets hurt::safety::

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

Another reason the paper airplanes need to stop: someone else needs to clean them up. During the awards/finals there was a stadium employee sweeping up hundreds of the paper airplanes on the stadium floor. Imagine how long it will take to go up and down all the rows and clean up all the hundreds of paper airplanes. I think its very likely they now have a different feeling of FIRST other than being inspired about science and technology. :o

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

While I understand your concerns, I'm sure the arena staff would have to sweep the arena floor and clear every row of seats anyway... that's their job.

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

The paper airplanes are nothing more than a release. It would be very unfortunate if anyone got hurt, and no one has the intent of hurting anyone. I feel it would be a freak accident if someone lost an eye to a paper airplane.
Just like anything it is easy to get out of hand. A plane made of card stock and/or flying them when someone is on state speaking are examples of getting out of hand. To use reasoning of someone having to clean them up is way out there. At the end of the day on Friday some of the girls on our team were picking up the area we were sitting in and noticed that the entire section next to where we were sitting and the area in front of where we were sitting was real bad. Without being asked they picked up both sections with the exception of the area that a team sitting next to us in our section due to them still sitting there. When the matches were over the team that was sitting next to us, got up and left, leaving a huge mess in their area. Even after seeing our students picking up the rest of the section and the section next to us. So I doubt that it would be paper airplanes that would give the cleanup crew a bad taste for FIRST.

/old man rant done.

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

I also agree that the cleaning up part is not a valuable reason why to not throw paper airplanes. When our team left, we went through our area where our team was sitting with garbage bags and cleaned everything up; including the paper airplanes that fell from above. If anything, the paper airplanes needed to stop when the ceremony started. It was extremely disrespectful and took away from those speaking. Although I stand neutral on if other teams should throw them or not, I know I enforced with my fellow captains NOT throwing them or throwing the ones that landed in our crowd due to the safety reasons.

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

While I have no care one way or the other on throwing planes your reasoning of "Who cares if it makes a mess because people are paid to clean is up" is completely wrong.

If people took more time to pick up after themselves and took efforts to not make a mess, then the people who are paid to clean up could go home sooner. Yes it's their job to clean up but we shouldn't make it harder and more tedious for them by making a mess just because its fun and other people will clean it up.

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

I completely agree that this should not have been going on when people were speaking.
I also don't think that it was done to make a mess for someone else to clean up.
If the only reason for not throwing a paper airplane is to not leave a mess for someone to pick up then so be it.
I find it hard to believe that any team was doing this just to make a mess or to be disruptive.
Who cleaned up all the confetti on the stage after Einstein. It is good that no one slipped on that paper and fell and broke something.
It is good that teams like 27 and others are willing to help out with cleaning up the area that we as FIRST use for our events. It is an example that many other teams should follow.

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

I agree, and I also should have said in my initial post that every team should endeavor to clean up the area around them. I just thought that the post I was replying to, like a couple others in this thread, was an overreaction. I think that throwing paper airplanes towards the field is a fun way to pass time during the seemingly endless delay before Einstein, although I definitely agree that this should stop when people are talking.

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

Perhaps they understood that expecting tens of thousands of high school students to sit still for hours the way they had was a tad ridiculous.

I know that at the point where that particular speaker came up, they had already completely lost the crowd. Not just the students, but the parents and most all the mentors as well.

The structure is ridiculous. You don't want the airplanes? Ok. Have FIRST get a little more realistic about how they structure the awards, the matches, and all the numerous speeches.

You leave that many kids together with nothing to do, and they will find SOMETHING. They started with the wave, the roller coaster, and a dozen other things that I'm sure no one had any disagreement with. Leave them to their own devices though, and it's going to happen eventually.

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

It wasn't just in Einstein with the VIPs, safety risks, and disrespecting the speakers- I know on Curie one of my team's matches [244s] had to be replayed because somebody threw an airplane onto the field. Does anyone have the common sense of when its ok to do things? It is just a bit upsetting to hear things like that.

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

This was my first thought! Also, I'm fairly certain that whatever the arena staff did sweep up, they put it into the trash. Think of how much recyclable material that is!

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

There were airplanes before the finals/closing ceremonies? I didn't notice them.

I thought they were cute at first. They looked really cool, especially with the lights off. I caught a few. My friend and I were writing cute things like, "smile, you're beautiful" and we even saw a few that said "prom? 555-555-5555." They definitely made me smile, especially with the stress of the tornado and some other stuff that was going on in the stands. However, I definitely agree that when they should have never been thrown into the VIP section and should have stopped during speeches. I was sitting with my friend Ria, who was in a wheel chair and there was an airplane that almost hit her on her knee. Besides that, I definitely didn't think of the safety hazards or the sponsors that were attacked by the planes. You would think that people had common sense.

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

There was a single balsa wood airplane thrown onto/near the Curie field (an SAIC giveaway, I think?) on Thursday. I don't believe that's what caused the match replay, though... I think the replay was due to a communications issue.

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

Simple solution:
1.every one downstairs put safety glasses on while facing the crowds
2.no throwing while someone is talking. Just do it prior to the speech or between the games.

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

I could not agree with this more, I think the planes made for a very entertaining way to pass the time before Einstein. I know I for one, as well as the un-affiliated adult next to me, would have been at wits end by the time the matches started

And also I don't think the planes were as disrespectful as people are making them out to be. Yes there were some flying during speeches, but the ones I saw were thrown way before they even got to the podium, and all of the speakers didn't seem to have any problem with it.

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

There was some booing when the PTC speaker came up, mainly because a woman at the scoring table grabbed a plane out of the air. That was a pretty bad moment for everyone.

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

Tom, hit on something of a separate issue here. The amount of time that these teenagers (not to mention adult mentors) were expected to sit around and wait for thing to get get going is ridiculous. When you loose the attention of the group you have to expect something to happen.
The amount of time between alliance selection and the start of the divisional eliminations was so short that our alliance did not have enough time to get all together on the practice field. Our drive team and pit crew had just enough time to shovel down some food in the pit and rush out to the field. Then at the end of the divisional's I had time to pack up the pit, load the bus and still have time to wait two hours for anything to start on Einstein.
Then people want to complain about a harmless release like making paper airplanes. I think this group did very well listening to speeches from that they really did not want to hear after waiting that long to hear them.

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

There's a pretty easy solution if it's important enough for them to stop: deny access to the upper tiers. Yet there were paper airplanes last year and it wasn't enough of a problem for them to deny it this year. Next year a small acknowledgement and request will probably suffice. "haha, thanks for remaining true to engineering -- yet let's have an applause and some respect for our incoming speakers and sponsors".

Mad props to whoever made the airplane that soared and hit the screen on the Galileo field.

Just wait, next year's safety award campaigns will include "proper" and "safe" paper airplane construction that "minimizes risk of poking an eye out".

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

Denying access to the upper tiers is an atrocious idea. Our team was in divisional finals, so we didn't migrate to Einstein for a long time. By the time we arrived, literally all seats were filled. If they hadn't opened up the upper tier, then we would not have been able to watch Einstein.

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

So move Einstein to one of the long sides of the arena.

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

From what I heard, the plane landed in a robot and jammed the drivetrain. The alliance opted not to ask for a replay since they had won anyway.

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

Again as with the trash outside the lobby area before the concert last year the I feel the blame lies squarely on FIRST and not the teams, students, and mentors. (On that note they did hire an outside company to actively maintain the facility through out the event and there were so many more trash cans through out the facility than last year.)

There was just way too much time spent waiting with nothing to do but watch the videos we had all seen dozens of times between matches. That meant, as many others have noted, that people were going to find ways to entertain themselves whether good or bad.

A couple of simple easy suggestions to have avoided this problem. Instead of replaying that same video loop we had all see so many times how about playing the Chairman's videos from the RCA winners, or instead of the FIRST has talent show being part of the finale have those participants that aren't doing something vital and important to the preparations do whatever their talent is during that waiting time.

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

Before the matches/speakers/awards were fine. Down on the floor, a lot of the VIPs were amused by it. After the matches and speeches start? It was pretty disruptive.

/$0.02

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

I actually love the atmosphere in the dome between Division finals and Einstein. You can feel the anticipation. It's dark. People are moving into their seats. Robots are being carted into position. Eerie music. And paper airplanes.

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

But....recycling! :(

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

I think paper airplanes where awesome before the black eyed peas concert last year and they were even better this year. It has become a part of the atmosphere of the dome like Jared said and I think that's awesome. It is my opinion that the sponsors weren't upset to see this but were in fact happy to see it because it shows just how awesome and different the people in FIRST are. All I heard from sponsors and FIRST people mentioning the airplanes was positive. I'm all for gracious professionalism but this competition is about fun and the airplanes are becoming a super fun tradition. I remember looking up and seeing an entire fleet of them raining down onto the lower bleachers, it was just awesome.

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

Well when I unfolded one of the paper airplanes that hit me in the back of the head, it was somebody's math homework. I'd call that recycling!

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

Probably not the only post to make these comments on, but....

This will be remembered as a watershed year for FIRST.

400 teams, 100 per division, matches starting Thursday afternoon, continuing to 8:30 that night, all day Friday, and the usual Saturday with final qualifications and Eliminations.....Our scouting team absolutely burned out. (Fortunately, ranking quite low, we didn't suffer for it. :) )

Too many teams. Too many matches. Teenagers are very good at creating amusing opportunities for themselves. That is why they are so enlightening to work with and hard to corral at times.

While you can imply a safety risk from the sharp pointy paper nose of the airplanes, the probability of someone, unaware of the plane, facing away from its trajectory, being injured, are lower than a hailstorm during Einstein, :eek: jk

This pretty much sums up my feelings on the paper airplane issue.

There are things that will change after this year.
There are many intelligent people cogitating on the season.
We will engineer a better solution.

This was a great game this year. The winning alliance were teams with 15, 16, and 17 years in FIRST. The universe conspired and after all is said and one, the result was inspiring.

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

This was my first year going to Championships (though teammates had gone last year), and I thought the paper airplanes were really cool. I can understand the safety concerns, but we were getting bored (and some people on my team were falling asleep during speeches, mostly from sleep deprivation) and the paper airplanes at least entertained us. (I wish there would have been room to dance, but apparently dancing during the downtime between matches is a Pacific Northwest thing.)

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

Anyone know why there was such an enormous delay between the completion of the divisional championship and the finals ? An hour and half plus I believe. That was the root cause of the escalating infestation of airplanes.

Unfortunately Murphies law guarantees that someone will eventually be hit in the eye with one. Are we going to have to issue safety glasses for spectators ?

I was apparently in a sweet spot in the stands and got hit at least a dozen times. So often I was shielding my camera for its protection. While I was waiting I was trying to figure out the probability of me being hit once, never mind a dozen times in 90 minutes given the tens of thousands of spectators :)

Seriously FIRST, work on reducing the delay!
UPDATE: Thanks for the explanations the followed. I have to wonder if FIRST is violating the KISS principle. Too many things have to go right for the finals to start on time.

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

I think I can answer this, GRR was traveling with an FLL team and I was running back and forth from their awards ceremony and the dome. The FLL awards ceremony was very late in finishing according to the schedule. This seemed to be the reason for the delay because the FRC awards/einstein started about 10/15 minutes after FLL ended.

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

Apparently when the lights went dim at about 4, that wasn't them about to start on time, that was some of the power going out because of the storm outside. Because of that, they lost things like the NASA stream, and had to spend an hour getting everything working again, causing them to start an hour after they were supposed to. What was supposed to be about an hour break turned into a 2 hour one because of the weather.

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

My teammate who was next to me did use old math homework to make paper airplanes. We were in front of the stage.

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

Places like the Edward Jones Dome typically have standby generators in the event of power outages. Also, as I recall, they only started about 10 minutes after 4.

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

Come on, people. Does everybody really have to rant, rave, and analyze EVERYTHING that goes on at FIRST? I just can't help but laugh when I see threads like this. I think people need to just lighten up. Paper airplanes in a classroom or venue like that are disrespectful. And, yes, throwing them during speeches is also somewhat disrespectful. But throwing them to entertain themselves during the 45 minute layover?

I actually think that if anything, people will look at that behavior (as I did) as an awesome example of robotics kids' enginuity and creativity. Trying to figure out the best way to overcome the down draft of the upper level seats and make them fly straighter. Trying to figure out the best designs and kind of make a competition out of it across the dome.

The paper airplanes are a perfect example of why I love FIRST. I may not be as into math and science as most FIRST kids, but I am still inspired by it and it makes me smile. I think it helped uplift the spirits for a lot of people.

Now seriously, stop analyzing and critiquing every little thing. It doesn't matter. If there was a serious attitude and behavior and respect problem as a whole on the part of FIRST students at CMP, that is the time to post a thread and talk about it.


P.S. I'm not trying to be mean or disrespectful. This is just a prime example of why I rarely come to ChiefDelphi anymore.

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

This has been going on for years. It's bound to happen with enough height and thousands of students interested in engineering. I remember it happening in Georgia. Why is it an issue now? I can see sharp corners from heavy cardstock or doing it while people are talking being a couple of poor choices, but other than that all I can see is kids trying to have a bit of fun.

You may have noticed more paper airplanes this year due to the length of Einstein (My family left after Curie was over, drove 4.5 hours through storms and we still got home in time to watch the final match, so that's what I'm basing the length of Einstein on.). You can't simply expect everyone to sit still that long.

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

Well, then make the paper airplanes a competition. Arrange to have it down on the field (If Possible !!!). Organize it and see how far they can throw their designs.

Due to the dome design, have two competitions on either side of Einstein ?

Just wonderin' . . . .

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

Yeah, because that totally wouldn't create any havoc.

Only on ChiefDelphi can we have a 4 page thread where people are debating about throwing airplanes. Everything becomes an issue on here.

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

For an instant worldview-improver, just change the number of posts displayed per page. You're welcome. :)

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

Tom - I'm highlighting your post, not to pick on you alone, but because you seemed to best some up the feeling of several of the posters. However...

I'm sorry to have to say this, but as a mentor sitting among her apparently well-behaved team during the eliminations and awards ceremony, I find the logic of this post indicative of the bad behavior around us. When a speaker comes to the podium to give an award or just a brief presentation, we should have been able to hear a pin drop. That's respect and maturity. Those are things we are trying to develop in our students and have to be modeled by the adults surrounding them. Baloney (Bologna) on the "can't sit still" line. These kids can sit still for hours playing video games, reading, playing on computers etc. And the adults can too. We were not asking them to sit still and be quiet for hours just for 5 to 10 minutes at a time during the presentations and speeches. There was so much get up and wiggle time in between those times.

On a side note, I really preferred the paper airplanes over the beach ball that kept smacking people on the head, but feel that they should have petered out by the time the speakers started, just as the wave only went for a while before it stopped. After a while they really weren't funny anymore. Just annoying.

We had one land near us that was a used team scouting sheet. We thought that was great!

Re: Paper Airplanes!
 

Maybe a teleprompter. You know like "Applause now" or "Laugh now" or "Throw planes now". But really when someone is talking every one should be listening. Mentors and team leaders are at fault for not enforcing that.:p