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-   -   Co-Op Rules for IRI - Unofficial Vote (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106213)

Chris Fultz 02-05-2012 09:15
Co-Op Rules for IRI - Unofficial Vote
 
We are considering three options for the co-op bridge at IRI, and will probably let each attending team vote (one vote per team) on how to proceed.

Here is an "unofficial" vote to see what CD thinks.

1. 2 points. No change to point values, ranking structure, etc.

2. 1 point. No change to ranking structure, just make a win worth more than the co-op bridge. Only counts if fully balanced.

3. 1 point. Ranking based on win-loss record, with co-op points as a tie breaker. This keeps the ranking focus on win-loss, but also makes the co-op important for teams with the same record. Only counts if fully balanced.

efoote868 02-05-2012 09:28
Re: Co-Op Rules for IRI - Unofficial Vote
 
I'd vote for a bonus for 3 robots on the co-op bridge. :D

Peyton Yeung 02-05-2012 09:34
Well how about 3 coop points for 3 on the coop bridge or 4 coop points for 4 on the coop bridge. I've seen it happen :)

Clinton Bolinger 02-05-2012 09:38
Re: Co-Op Rules for IRI - Unofficial Vote
 
Has there been any talks about making the coop worth 0 and adjusting the qualification balance points?

I would have to agree with Adam's post in the MARC thread:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...7&postcount=55

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Freeman (Post 1164667)
I am not sure that making it 1pt is going to make things any better. If nothing else, it makes it easier for a team to decide not to do it. Which, if you are on the other side of that decision is still going to effect your ranking. All it does is change the situations in which a team decides to coop or not.

We used the coop bridge with great success this year. We took advantage that winning + coop will move us way up in the rankings and that doing it consistently everytime will lead to great success. In our local districts team s that knew us pretty much agreed we should be the ones to do it, and we had no shortage of willing and capable partners. At MSC, so teams from farther away from metro-Detroit, did not know us so well and we had to have a direct conversation about why we should do it. Everyone at MSC was capable. In St. Louis, it was even worse...we needed to convince most teams that we should be the one coop'ing and then struggle to find an opponent that was capable of performing the task with us.

I also saw a lot of teams declining to coop or agreeing and not showing up. We have never experienced that this season, but I can imagine that is probably one of the worst feelings...knowing someone is messing with your ranking for their own benefit (without beating you) or even worse they just lied to you.

Making it 1pt, lessens the pain of those lies, but also makes it easier to either decieve someone or just plain tell them you don't want to do it. It definitely changes the dynamic a bit.

It still takes the same effort and time to do it. If you are going too...wouldn't you want to get the most benefit from it?

I say either leave it as 2pts...or get rid of it all together for off-season events and let us just run up the scores as much as possible...:D
-Clinton-

Chris Fultz 02-05-2012 09:44
Re: Co-Op Rules for IRI - Unofficial Vote
 
We posted three options.

Taylor 02-05-2012 09:54
Re: Co-Op Rules for IRI - Unofficial Vote
 
Option 1.
The scoring system, as it stands, is great. Leave it as-is.
This invites many strategies to the competition and the meta-competition as it were. Especially when every contestant is regional-champion-or-beyond quality, as they are at IRI, I can see no benefit to denying any team the coop bonus.

[disclaimer]opinion of a likely non-participating but interested third party[/disclaimer]

Adam Freeman 02-05-2012 10:12
Re: Co-Op Rules for IRI - Unofficial Vote
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Fultz (Post 1165728)
1. 2 points. No change to point values, ranking structure, etc.

2. 1 point. No change to ranking structure, just make a win worth more than the co-op bridge. Only counts if fully balanced.

3. 1 point. Ranking based on win-loss record, with co-op points as a tie breaker. This keeps the ranking focus on win-loss, but also makes the co-op important for teams with the same record. Only counts if fully balanced.
Well since no one else has actually commented on the available three options, I will try too.

I am debating which option between 1 or 3 is best. Option 1 pretty much makes everyone at atleast attempt to Coop early in the event. Since all the teams attending will believe they have a shot at seeding first and selecting the best robot available. But, as the competition carries on Friday evening and Saturday morning, all the strategic and competitive juices will be in full force. Will this coop bridge be more like MSC, where there are so many qualified teams that 100% coop scores will be the norm...or will there be significant strategic plays similar to what we saw at Champs. Any time someone messes with the coop bridge (ie; not doing it in any way...) people's feelings get hurt. I would hate for IRI to turn into another controversy over this bridge.

Clinton quoted my opinion on a 1pt coop bridge. Just not worth it to perform every match and easier to accept screwing others over. I am not a fan of option #2.

I am leaning towards option #3. It's as close to just doing W-L-T as they are going to allow. I think the competition will devolve into no one doing it at all, since it takes too much effort to do it and at IRI you are probably going to need to score the entire match to win, unless there is agreement between the teams that a match is too lopsided and both teams agree to get the 1pt bonus for the tie-breaker. I believe this option limits controversy and makes the qualification matches more exciting.

After typing through all of this, I think I have decided on option #3.

Craig Roys 02-05-2012 10:58
Re: Co-Op Rules for IRI - Unofficial Vote
 
I like option 1, but I am a bit biased as we were able to use the coop bridge effectively all season long. I know there are many who believe that it was worth too much. If not option 1, I would also vote for option 3 and use it as a tie-breaker. I don't think option 2 with a 1 pt coop makes it worthwhile to do - it would tend to make it more likely that you would get stood up at the bridge as the game came down to the wire and a team decides the win is more important that the coop.

Paul Copioli 02-05-2012 11:37
Re: Co-Op Rules for IRI - Unofficial Vote
 
Chris,

I want option 4: 2 co-op points but not used for anything other than the co-op award. Allow triple balances in qualifications since the robots will be good enough to either triple or defend the triple. Let's make all IRI matches like elimination matches. It will be an insane tournament this way.

To me, all of the other options are bad for IRI. It may have worked fine for a competition season where 90% of the robots were OK or bad, but at a competition that will have the top 2ish% robots participating, what will the co-op bridge achieve? It will just be another strategic option for teams to use to manipulate rankings.

Paul

XaulZan11 02-05-2012 11:40
Re: Co-Op Rules for IRI - Unofficial Vote
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Copioli (Post 1165810)
Allow triple balances in qualifications since the robots will be good enough to either triple or defend the triple. Let's make all IRI matches like elimination matches. It will be an insane tournament this way.
I'm with Paul on this one. The triple balance is the most exciting aspect of this years game, why not extend it to the qualification matchs?

IndySam 02-05-2012 12:15
Re: Co-Op Rules for IRI - Unofficial Vote
 
I'm also with Paul but if we can't have triple balances then option 3.

Richard Wallace 02-05-2012 12:34
Re: Co-Op Rules for IRI - Unofficial Vote
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Fultz (Post 1165728)
3. 1 point. Ranking based on win-loss record, with co-op points as a tie breaker. This keeps the ranking focus on win-loss, but also makes the co-op important for teams with the same record. Only counts if fully balanced.
If this option is chosen, would co-op points be the first tie-breaker, shifting the other tie breakers down in priority? So HP (hybrid hoop points) would become the 2nd tie breaker, BP (bridge points) would become the 3rd tie breaker, etc.?

I think I like option 3.

jwfoss 02-05-2012 12:40
Re: Co-Op Rules for IRI - Unofficial Vote
 
My initial opinion would be to leave it as it was originally written, however if a change is required I agree with Paul with a minor tweak.

If triple balances are worth 40pts in Qualifications then balancing on the Co-Op Bridge should be worth 10pts.

Tom Line 02-05-2012 12:50
Re: Co-Op Rules for IRI - Unofficial Vote
 
Leave it as is. Adding in the ability to 40 point balance in the qualification matches will really hurt bots that are a long configuration.

IndySam 02-05-2012 12:57
Re: Co-Op Rules for IRI - Unofficial Vote
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Line (Post 1165875)
Leave it as is. Adding in the ability to 40 point balance in the qualification matches will really hurt bots that are a long configuration.
Never thought of that Tom, it would significantly change design choices.

Change me to a 3.


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