Progression: FLL, FTC, FRC
 

We are wondering if your FRC team gets students from FLL and/or FTC that move up the chain into FRC and if you have any type of system in which students move up the ladder with.

Starting this year we will be putting into motion a collaboration between our three Chelsea teams to make transitioning between teams easier and support the teams below one another. It involves not having any mentor on a specific level of FIRST and gets younger student more familiar with our FRC Team's mentors and using that to increase the mentor ratio to improve learning over all. We've always struggled with getting members to move up the ranks and with the recent shift in power with our school we can now achieve this plan. Since the three competitions don't really overlap FRC students can mentor FLL and FTC and so on, again increasing communications and the goal of FIRST.

So does this sound like a good plan to other teams? What do you think in general?

Re: Progression: FLL, FTC, FRC
 

Our team (25) uses a similar system to feed kids into the FRC team. We started our first FTC team in 2009 as a way for the incoming freshman to get a feel for FIRST and have a more active and hands on role. It worked out so the kids that were interested in building and programming on FTC pursued the same roles on FRC. Like you mentioned, since the competitions don’t overlap (they never have for us at least), the kids from FTC come on over to FRC and still get to attend the in-state competitions that we attend.

Since we had so many kids (about 50) interested in FTC, we created two more FTC teams so that everyone had the opportunity to implement their ideas. Our FTC mentor, Mr. Weiss, is also one of the coaches on FRC so he made the transition as smooth as possible for the FTC kids. We also have a freshman engineering class that has a curriculum based on the FTC program. In essence, the FTC team is comparable to a JV sports team, while FRC 25 is more like the varsity team.

This worked out really well for us in 2009 when a core group of freshman filled in many of the holes that the graduating class of 2009 left behind. Since then, we have gotten several motivated students from the FTC teams.

I hope this helps, and good luck!

Re: Progression: FLL, FTC, FRC
 

We haven't managed to keep FLL teams around in our elementary schools long enough to be much of a feeder system. Once the kids move on, the parents leave, and those parents were the mentors. It's very hard to find parents who want to give up their time to mentor the teams, and without experienced mentors the teams have a ton of trouble - especially in Michigan's ridiculously compressed FLL season.

We have no FTC teams because of the overlap between the FLL and FTC programs. Frankly, FIRST needs to wake up on that score - if they want FTC to succeed they need to lower the maximum age of FLL so kids are forced to move over. That's a different post though :D.

Re: Progression: FLL, FTC, FRC
 

I think you are on the right track! :)

We noticed that we were losing kids at the middle school level, so we started doing FTC in the middle school in 2008. The transition from FTC to FRC has been much higher. 2 years ago, we started trying to get more involved with our younger students. We now try to mentor all the FLL teams in our district, we invite them to our practice field and we try to get them to our competitions. We donated "BX member for a day" packets to our elementary school's PTA auctions. They had a team shirt, some robot trinkets, and a pass for them to come play robots with us for a day.

We also started coaching JFLL to get kids involved at a younger age and to create positive experiences for our team as well as they little ones. JFLL is a great program for FRC kids to coach (under the direction of an adult as FIRST requires that). So, we have 4 JFLL teams that practice on one night. They split up with different FRC kids and I am there to oversee and help plan. It has really been a neat thing. We started with 2 teams and last year had 4. We sponsor, coach and mentor the teams. We were losing girls in our FLL program so we started with all girl JFLL teams, but we opened it up to everyone this year. It is fun to watch them move from JFLL to FLL!

A positive side note is that this also creates great community support.


This summer we are trying some summer camps for the first time. We'll see how that goes. :)

But, remember to reach out of the FIRST alumni as well. We still pull in some FIRST rookies at all grades! We had some remarkable seniors join this year for their first year of FIRST ever! :) We always try to recruit in our high school as well.

Re: Progression: FLL, FTC, FRC
 

Our school district has been working with local companies help fund the implementation of FLL at most/all the elementary schools, VRC at the middle school level, and then support which ever programs the high schools elect to participate in.

We now have incoming freshman that have been involved for 3 or more years before they come to us and the difference in their skill sets over freshman before the district started this push is noticeable.

Re: Progression: FLL, FTC, FRC
 

We have FLL at most/all the elementary schools, VRC at the middle school level, and at high school students can pick to do FRC or HS Vex. Last year we moved 5 students from FLL to VRC, 4 VRC to FRC and 10 of the 8th graders opted to stay and do HS Vex.

This year we will have 40 8th graders that need to decide which way they want to go, FRC or Vex. Likewise I expect to get ~25 new roboteers into the Vex program. (We never have problems with FLL, there is always a waiting list)

Re: Progression: FLL, FTC, FRC
 

We would like to do FTC but our middle school is grades 7-8 and FTC is for grades 9-12. We are considering VEX or BEST...

Re: Progression: FLL, FTC, FRC
 

Right.. our 7th and 8th graders competed against the 9th - 12th graders (and won the Inspiration Award, which is their version of Chairman's). (I believe the rules officially say something like "no older than 12th grade" for entry to FTC, though it is publicized as 9th - 12th) The7th and 8th graders can be very competitive.

This year, Michigan put FTC as a middle school option. Our Jr. High is now 6th - 8th. We offer FLL and FTC options here. We try to steer our experienced 7th and 8th grade FIRST kids into FTC (unless they just want to stay in FLL, which some do) and we steer our new recruits to FLL. :)

The experienced FLL kids REALLY love the step up to FTC, and work very hard at it. It is doable at that level. Since 2008, we have had one or two FTC teams at our jr. high all but one year.

This year we were lucky enough to secure a somewhat permanent home for our team and we invited the jr. high team to practice with us beginning in Feb. They came, and we were there to answer questions if they had them. They got to see our kids working, our kids got to see them working. Mostly, we co-existed, but when they needed us, we were right there. :) Next year, they will practice with us throughout the season. It builds great ties.

Re: Progression: FLL, FTC, FRC
 

Over the last few years, FRC 1511 has began to recieve many FLL alumni. Nowadays, I believe we have almost 10 FLL alumni out of 40 students.

A strong FLL community presence for an FRC team really make the difference. Our team one on one mentors FLL teams and makes a lasting impact, causing FLL alumni to join our FRC team. It also help when the students understand the Jr.FLL, FLL, FTC, and FRC relationship. Also, when recruiting new students, if you display FLL logos or FIRST Logos on the advertisements, it may also attract FLL/Jr.FLL alumni.

I myself, am an FLL alumni who was inspired by a 1511 mentor to join our team, and now I coordinate our FLL involvment. :]

Re: Progression: FLL, FTC, FRC
 

When we decided to do a pilot FTC program in Michigan for middle school students we were really trying to get the programs back to the way they were originally designed. FLL for elementary school, FTC for Middle School, And FRC for high school. This creates the intended flow of students and allows you to keep students and mentors around for a lot longer. This solves all the valid issues discussed in this thread. I believe that FIRST is working towards this transition after the success we had in Michigan with the pilot.

The rules for all the FIRST programs only have upper bounds for the grades not lower bounds. So if you would like to do 6th-8th grade on an FTC team you can do that and like Debbie said they will compete quite well.
I have coached 4 Lego league teams consisting of elementary school students. From my experience having 4th graders compete against 8th graders is a lot tougher then having 7-8th graders compete against 9th-12th because so much development happens between 4th and 8th grade.


If anyone has any questions about running FTC at a middle school level I can give you my first hand insight from coaching 2 middle school FTC teams this year. The kids loved it and handled the challenges very well. The transition from Lego league to FTC is very seamless and my Lego alumni students picked it up right away. I strongly believe that if FIRST wants to grow it will need to go back to its initial design and stop promoting FTC as a lower budget FRC program for high schools.

Re: Progression: FLL, FTC, FRC
 

People always ask us why our name is "Entech: The GreenVillans". Team 281, the GreenVillans, is part of a group called EnTech (short for Engineering and Technology). Entech is a group made up of FRC team 281, FTC team 753, and two FLL teams. Any student in Greenville county, no matter what school they go to, can start on one of the two FLL teams and when they are done with FLL they have an FTC and FRC team they move up to. We all meet in the same place, so the older students are there to mentor the younger ones. The system works great, and someone can be a part of a FIRST team from 4th to 12th grade.

Re: Progression: FLL, FTC, FRC
 

When you say FIRST, I assume you’re talking about FRC. FLL and FTC have fantastic growth curves. If your only concern is FRC then I understand your arguments about how to promote FTC.

If you concern is to grow all FIRST programs, then you need to go where you’re growth potential lies. For FTC that’s smaller schools, organizations like 4-H, scouts, boys & girls clubs, or neighborhood teams. FRC requires more bodies and a lot more money than these types of organizations can typically pull together. FTC is a perfect fit.

Beyond that, the structure of FTC and FRC are different. Ones not better than the other. Ones not more advanced than the other. Each has their strengths and weaknesses beyond the almighty dollar. I think FIRST should actually increase their promotion of FTC and treat it as a full fledged parallel path for High School students.

The growth potential for FRC lies in reducing the cost.

Re: Progression: FLL, FTC, FRC
 

On the FIRST website it says FTC grades 9-12 (ages 14-18). In the 2011 game manual it has an * by ages 14-18 and says "may include 8th grade students 13 and older who are prepared to enter a high-school program". Does FIRST post elsewhere that it's ok for younger kids?

Re: Progression: FLL, FTC, FRC
 

You are correct on this. So perhaps I am wrong but I remember reading that the age is only capped at the top. If I find where I read it I will post it.

****EDIT (I found it in this years mentor manual located on page 14 of this pdf: http://www3.usfirst.org/sites/defaul...ide_2011.pdf):
So this confirms there is only an age cap on the top and the cutoff at the bottom is up to the coach/mentors discretion.

Re: Progression: FLL, FTC, FRC
 

So do VEX, not really a limit on the ages (since you can do VEX as a College competition).

I loved the comment about middle school kids taking on and beating high school kids. It's all about an how inspired the roboteers are. One of our best teams this year were doing their first year in VEX from FLL. They knew lots of robot stuff from FLL, this year was a metal working year. Next year? All bets are off.

And I love the progression. Our VEX teams get roboteers that know how to do autonomous programming, it's all there is in FLL. VEX gets them and teaches the righty-tighty,lefty-loosey skills and a huge dose of mechanical physics and then sent them off to FRC. Where they do power tools and much bigger robots.

What? Preaching to the already converted? Oh right, forgot where I was. :rolleyes:

Re: Progression: FLL, FTC, FRC
 

Working with the Girl Scouts of the Jersey Shore to build up the robotics program. We have a very successful FLL team: Electro Llamas and a sister Jr.FLL Team with a Local Expo.. Being a former FRC coach (FRC1882) and VEX FTC Coach, I hope to encourage my, all Girl FLL team to advance to FTC and FRC. We will see!
Going to Monty Madness tomorrow to encourage them!

Re: Progression: FLL, FTC, FRC
 

Although this may be a valid model for many established FRC programs, I have an issue with this attitude in general and cringe at the thought of it being used as a model for the relationship between FTC and FRC.

For many here on Chief Delphi, there is an unfortunate view of FTC as a stepping stone to FRC. In regards to FIRST and the goals of inspiring students to take up STEM, I believe this to be a flawed and destructive perspective.
So often on this forum I read posts about the real goals of FIRST and how “it isn’t about the robots”; why then do such values seem take a backseat the moment we discuss FTC’s relationship to FRC for so many? I’ve never understood this and it bugs me.
The purpose of FRC is not to promote & grow FRC. It is to inspire students to pursue STEM careers/activities.

FRC teams should be actively promoting the other FIRST programs, not figuring out how to constrain and fit them in as feeding systems to FRC. Taking such a narrow view of FTC is a disservice not just to all the high school students currently in the program who have no intention of ever participating in FRC, but to all the other high school students who do not have a FIRST program available to them at all and to whom FTC might be a better fit than FRC.

I’ll take this a step further and state that FRC is not and should not be the only goal when we discuss the relationship of the various FIRST programs. For many organizations FTC is the better end goal and this reality should be reflected in our community here. Asking if/how teams move students “up the ladder” from FTC as the OP put it is itself a flawed & disrespectful question.

Rather than a progression of Jr. FLL --> FLL --> FTC --> FRC, I believe a more realistic and pragmatic progression is Jr. FLL --> FLL --> FTC || FRC.
As for the middle school gap, I think there should be a junior varsity concept, and maybe it should use FTC’s platform, but it should be separate just for the middle school students who are too old for FLL, but not typically equipped to compete against high schoolers.
Thus, the ideal progression would really be Jr. FLL --> FLL --> Jr. FTC --> FTC || FRC.

I respectfully disagree with this for the points stated above. It is not about forcing the original intent of FTC (a prototyping platform for FRC), but rather it should be about actual potential that the program has. I really hope that FIRST does not take anything from the Michigan pilot other than a new junior program is needed at the middle school level and the FTC platform would be a good fit.
Doing away with FTC at the high school level is an awful idea and would be detrimental to the goals of FIRST. I love FRC as many here do, but after 20 plus years I think we all know that it is not logistically feasible for every high school. I’m sure that as FIRST’s impact on culture is made, that may change, but to get there we need affordable programs like FTC & VRC and all these programs will have dramatically evolved by the time we get there.