Research says: Feminine STEM role models do not motivate girls
 

While reading about backlash from a European Girls in STEM initiative, I found this article about female role-models for younger girls. Often times we talk about how to increase female participation in FIRST/STEM, and I feel like role models are a huge part of it.

The article says that the more "feminine/girly" the role model is, the more she discourages younger females in the pursuit of STEM. I feel like this is counter-intuitive, I always thought that if girls could see that loving STEM doesn't mean you have to be less "girly", it would have a positive impact (or at least I appreciated seeing that in a TAs of mine at college).

The reason, the article says, is that girls see being both feminine and STEM-smart as unattainable, and therefor are threatened/intimidated.

Personally, I wonder if the researched asked the girls how "feminine" they see themselves. I think girls [people] don't want to feel pressured to change how they act/dress/etc and so a role-model who is different from them is threatening/hard to identify with.

Thoughts?

Re: Research says: Feminine STEM role models do not motivate girls
 

I just read both this study* and another written in 2011**, and examined some of their citations. (One*** struck me as more relevant to your direction in addressing the salience of gendered perception).

This is quite interesting. The distancing from and sub-stereotyping of STEM-skilled women is incredibly robust across STEM-disinterested female [and male] subjects, regardless of age or self-perceived gender salience. Girls/women not already interested in STEM almost universally report decreased likelihood of studying STEM after interaction with an overtly feminine STEM role model, essentially based on the representativeness heuristic. Overtly feminine STEM role models also decrease younger girls' perception of their abilities regardless of their initial interest in STEM or personal characteristics.

As an aside, no one herein found a correlation between salience of model femininity and girls' positive feelings or perceived similarity with them. i.e., "This argues against the idea that girls connect better with feminine women. It also suggests that participants’ reactions to our role models were not driven by perceived dissimilarity" (Betz).

In short, the feminine role model works for you and I because we're already interested in STEM (and believe we can succeed). Overtly feminine STEM models can be encouraging, but aren't eye-opening. In fact, they're actually eye-closing.

*"My Fair Physicist? Feminine Math and Science Role Models Demotivate Young Girls"
Social Psychological and Personality Science, Betz & Sekaquaptewa (2012)

**"Do Female and Male Role Models Who Embody STEM Stereotypes Hinder Women's Anticipated Success in STEM?"
Social Psychological and Personality Science, Cheryan, et al. (2011)

***"Constraints into Preferences: Gender, Status, and Emerging Career Aspirations"
American Sociological Review, Correll (2004)
Note these particular links probably only work if you attend Penn State.

Re: Research says: Feminine STEM role models do not motivate girls
 

Being a HVAC - Plumbing Contractor working in homes doing repairs, I have observed the parenting of many young children over the years. If this country wants to bring more females into the stem work force, the problem needs to be addressed at the early child development years. To me it seams that most moms even if they them selves are in a stem career do not nurture stem in their daughters and actual block a fathers efforts. The blocking of play that helps with stem development really increases when they enter the play group stage. Add to that societies perception of what a girl should be delivered thru media and it's not surprising that the large majority of girls do not want anything to do with a stem career. Watch the Disney Channel and other cartoons to see what society tells our children to be. I find it scary the messages in many of these programs. To try and address the problem at the high school years is to late. Girls have already accepted the message of society as to what they should do and the behaviors that are expected by society from them. Find the kids male and female at a young age that have stem leanings and start nurturing them then. Toy selection by parents is critical. Play is critical. The children's media Must change their message. Society must change its message. How do you do that? I would consider any woman in a stem career now to be a true non-conformist. They totally ignored society's message. Just my opinion.

Re: Research says: Feminine STEM role models do not motivate girls
 

Don't go too far with that idea. Listen to Richard Feynman talk about trying to encourage both his son and his daughter to pursue science -- it worked for his son, and didn't work for his daughter.

In my family, it worked for some of the boys but not others.

People are different. I'm not convinced that STEM/gender distinctions are all that important, either in recognition or in something that needs remedy. I've got very, very STEM-interested girls in my robotics programs, and I've got boys who I couldn't drag in no matter what.

I think my perspective on this comes from a rather fierce individualism -- peoples is peoples, and likes what they likes. I think it's important to try to get everyone to try new things, just to see if they like them, and to pursue their passions with relentless tenacity -- and I think we should make no distinction based on gender, skin color, creed, geography, socio-economic status, or anything else.

Re: Research says: Feminine STEM role models do not motivate girls
 

Personally I think this is closer to the root of the issue. Do many peer groups and media sources stereotype STEM as masculine? Yes (see any of above studies for empiricism). Parents, teachers, and other parties may also contribute. But providing contrary role models doesn't change that stereotype (in fact, it creates an detrimental heuristic controversy).

Short of altering the entire culture at large [not that I don't advocate that], the thing that changes this is inspiring kids' confidence in their own individuality. If they like what they like and have the self-worth to stand up for it--or to search for it, and/or just deal with the peer pressure in general, it won't matter what those peers or anyone else says. Elementary and middle (and high, and post-secondary) schools, at least the ones I went to, are filled with girls/women--and men--that say 'I wanted to do that, but it just wasn't ok'. IMHO, that's what needs to change.

In short, yes, if you can raise your kids to follow their dreams no matter what anyone says, and the rest will go a lot smoother.

Here I have to disagree with you. Of course, as in anything, there are some girls that love STEM (the board is full of them) and some guys that hate it. But whether there's a quantitative gender gap in STEM? Statistically, there's no doubt there is. At least for myself, I can't see a way that it's entirely individual/internal. There's an external biasing going on here, and I do feel it needs a remedy.
Women hold 48% of all jobs but only 24% of STEM. They earn more than half the undergraduate degrees in the US but only hold 27% in STEM (and many of those in biological sciences only). Only 1 in 7 engineers is female. The list goes on.

Re: Research says: Feminine STEM role models do not motivate girls
 

Yup.

Absolutely. The question is whether or not that matters. There are those who will cry that of course it matters, and they have a host of reasons why they will say so. To me, if any given person does/does not go into STEM because they are pursuing a passion that does/does not coincide with STEM -- for whatever reason -- that's totally fine. The problem is, IMO, people who choose to chase no passion, or at least not insofar as it requires hard work and dedication.

The trick is showing kids that STEM is at least a possibility, and give them the opportunity to develop a passion for it if they choose to do so, regardless of physiology.

Re: Research says: Feminine STEM role models do not motivate girls
 

Katie, take a look at these few articles. I firmly believe that the heart of the the problem is, like you said, not having enough female role models in industry

My favorite quote about the matter, "Regardless of whether you are a man or a woman, you will need mentors at every level of your career" - Jane Reckelhoff

http://sciencecareers.sciencemag.org....opms.r1000084
and more recently
http://www.usnews.com/education/high...le-stem-majors


oh and btw, thanks for being one of those female role model/mentors ;)

Re: Research says: Feminine STEM role models do not motivate girls
 

This...actually could have been the answer to one of the essay questions on my women's psych final last semester.

At very young ages, children start to seek out people that are similar to them and may attempt to mimic that behavior. Children as young as 2 years old develop some form of gender identity. There was one study that showed that, by 24 months, children already produce more gender-typed words (i.e. "truck" for boys vs "doll" for girls). They learn through play and through socialization. Even if parents take caution in not reinforcing stereotypes in their own homes, other children outside the home have been "taught" the norms for their gender. As they grow older, the pressure for gender conformity increases--you'll often notice girls who were once "tomboys" shift to being more "feminine" around middle school age as that pressure increases.

As has already been discussed in this thread, STEM is almost always cast as being more "masculine" so I won't go into how that, along with gender development, create the sort of problem we see today.

It really is a societal problem. Richard Feynman's story may be a case of this. Though he was telling his daughter one thing, everything else in the world was going against that.

Even if we "fix" this sort of problem, there are theories that some "feminine" (or as some psychologists prefer to call them "expressive") and "masculine" (or "instrumental") traits are inherent and that, regardless of the socialization or non-enforcement of stereotypes or what is in each child's gender schema, girls will almost always go towards dolls and boys will always go towards trucks. I don't think I am one to support such a theory--just saying that there are some like it.

Going back to the original post, perhaps having overly attractive and "feminine" STEM role models brings up the other insecurities that many girls already have about themselves. We've all heard about the impact the messages in the media do to girls, especially when it comes to their appearances and their bodies. Maybe presenting them with these overly feminine, good-looking women just plays right into that as well. They might see them and think "Look how much better this woman is than I am" rather than "Wow! I can be a girl AND a scientist!"

And, Siri, yes the links only work if you go to PSU. Thankfully, I was able to find them via UMD's catalogs as well.

Re: Research says: Feminine STEM role models do not motivate girls
 

Emphasis mine. This is really the key. If you show a girl who doesn't want to be a scientist a picture of a female scientist, they aren't going to be motivated to be a scientist. It doesn't matter if the woman on the poster is as stunning as a supermodel or as ugly and masculine as a cave troll, the kid ain't gonna wanna do science. But for girls that do want to do STEM, it's a real toss up. From my personal experience:
When I was young(er), I hated the overly feminine STEM ladies. It didn't stop me from wanting to be an astronaut, but to me, it didn't seem realistic. I honestly couldn't fathom how someone who liked dolls and Disney musicals could be an engineer. My role model was Eileen Collins, the baddest of badasses, and so intimidating that she got into the first class of female test pilots despite being half an inch too short. (I asked her about this in a phone conversation once. She apparently gave the guy measuring her a death glare and he wrote down the minimum height instead of her real height. WHAT A GAL) But when I joined FIRST I met Victoria Sprague, a girl who liked dolls and Disney musicals and somehow enjoyed engineering. She preferred feminine role models, and hoped to be one herself (and succeeded the next year by making team captain and getting several "girly-girls" to realize they wanted to be engineers).
My point is that the people who make these motivational posters and videos need to be balanced in how they portray female STEM role models. For every video of how science makes your makeup, there needs to be a Rosy the Riveter out-muscling linebackers with a wrench or Sam Carter fixing old motorcycles after coming home from a hard day of interdimensional wormhole physics. And more to the original point of this thread, realism is the key here. The video from the original article? Faker than all the noses in Hollywood combined. That will turn most girls off simply because of how silly it all is. Kari Byron firing a minigun in a gorgeous evening gown? Even my super girly friends think that it's perhaps the coolest thing anyone's done in opera gloves, because that's how she is in real life. Little kids are very perceptive. They know when they're being lied to, and the study suggests that these girls would rather see real women from the industry instead of pinups and bad acting. It also suggests that girls who don't have the right mindset for STEM see these fake scientists and assume the worst, which is troublesome because, through peer pressure, girls who might have been interested are influenced to also assume bad things about ladies in STEM.
Just my insanely disorganized thoughts. I'm glad this is a topic of concern right now.

Re: Research says: Feminine STEM role models do not motivate girls
 

At the core of STEM is the desire to discover/create something cool, and that desire must take precedence over image, or it comes across as fake. Someone with an obvious passion for a scientific endeavor, and oh, by the way, they happen to be good-looking, too, works. But a video which demonstrates someone who has obviously expended their best, most serious time and effort into looking attractive, and oh, by the way, in their leftover time, they're into science, too, leaves a bad taste. This applies to both women and men, but especially so for women, because physical attractiveness has historically been emphasized for them.

Most STEM pursuits take time and effort that require sacrifice, and for many, it may require "looking bad" in one way or another. When my son was about 5, we went to a park with a group of moms and kids, and the kids began the day digging in the sand. After 5 - 10 minutes, all the kids but my son ran off to the play equipment. Mother after mother (thinking him anti-social) asked him, "Don't you want to join the other kids?" to which he answered, "No, thanks, I'm doing something." After 30 minutes, he gave a shout of excitement -- he had dug his way down to the water table, and was tunneling underneath the sand. Upon this discovery, all the other kids returned to this new "cool" activity. But whether the kids thought him cool or not, he would have preferred his solitary endeavor.

We cannot motivate kids to STEM with the carrot, "If you engage in STEM, you'll look cool." Rather we should entice them, "If you engage in STEM, you'll discover/create something cool, and what you discover/create is more fulfilling than how you look.

Regarding the U of M study, I think one component to the turnoff is spotlighting only the highest-achieving STEM women, without showing the range of STEM opportunities at the lower and middle levels. Many moons ago, I attended U of M and worked for 2 years at the Kresge Hearing Research lab there. It was obvious that my BSEE/MS BioE would be insufficient to continue working long-term in that capacity (I would really need a PhD), and the long hours (sometimes until 2 am) were not conducive to having the kind of family I wanted. I ended up getting a MA in math and have taught part-time at a junior college, while raising my family almost full-time. Still STEM, less prestigious, but more sustainable over the long haul for what I wanted to do. Some of my adult algebra students have told me, "I'd like to be a math teacher, like you" and are now teaching at the elementary and high school level. If they thought that being in STEM required getting an engineering degree, it might have scared them off.

I think it would be helpful to think of STEM in broader terms -- just as auto mechanics and computer technicians perform engineering/technical work, medical personnel, including the array of nursing and medical assisting jobs are science-based, and bringing them under the STEM umbrella makes the field more approachable, attainable, and familiar. Many of us know a mechanic, nurse, or high school science teacher that could inspire us to think, "I could do that," and they don't have to be "gender-locked."

Re: Research says: Feminine STEM role models do not motivate girls
 

Of everything you mentioned, I'm just picking out these two points... I completely agree - truth and balance are really important here... I mean, as a girl interested in STEM and now the captain of my team I want to be a role model to girls... but the message I would like to portray is that ANYONE can do it - it's not limited to any particular demographic... gender, age, race, whatever!

Re: Research says: Feminine STEM role models do not motivate girls
 

We have wonderful role models, we just don't do a great job of promoting them.

Jane

Re: Research says: Feminine STEM role models do not motivate girls
 

I never thought about girls being turned off to additional standards, which does make sense. Why would anyone want to have more pressure? I really do appreciate all the additional articles added to this thread. This is something I've become incredibly interested in in the past few weeks.

After reading all of this though, I now wonder what effect I have on younger girls that I see/mentor. As someone who would like to be a positive role model, I wonder if I am having a positive effect. Am I too girly? Not girly enough? Am I giving girls in engineering a bad name?

There is an additional pressure that I have (that I don't think many male mentors think about)* that I must accurately portray what a strong female can look like. I never want my students to think that I am being quiet because girls are quiet or that I am being vocal because I am overcompensating. Now I will also be worried that I am either setting an unattainable of unattractive goal. I don't know if this is a concern or many female mentors or not, because its not something I've discussed with any other EM females.

*I want to clarify** that because they are so few female EMs, what each one does is far more representative of our group than one male EM. Its is similar to how in a group of 6, each member has a sixth of the responsibility, whereas in a group of 100, each member has a hundredth of the responsibility. I hope this makes sense as to why I (and maybe other female EMs) think I am more pressured to be a positive role-model and representative for girls and other female EMs.

** I am clarifying to prevent others from posting that I am "victimizing" myself or unnecessarily adding these pressures to myself without understanding why I think the way I do.

Re: Research says: Feminine STEM role models do not motivate girls
 

Woah, woah, woah. Don't drive yourself nuts here. Your students will choose who they look up to, not the other way around. Just be yourself, be honest, and most importantly, be present. The best role models are the ones you can relate to.

Re: Research says: Feminine STEM role models do not motivate girls
 

Working with an all girls team, I know the team feels like they should be role models to younger girls and girls on other teams. We do that a few ways. The students strive to be the best engineers they can be, the entire team strives to maintain a positive outlook and high, productive energy levels. Lastly, the students are honest with other girls about what its like being on the team.

As a role model, all you can do is be yourself. If you try to impress too hard, you'll end up turning people off. We all know sports figures who tried really hard to get their names in the press and stay "popular". The other side of that are the sports figures who try their best in the game and have natural talent that everyone looks up to. They give credit to their team, and don't try overly hard to impress in front of the press. Which do you look up to more?

Regardless of your own personal style, students will be inspired just by working with you and being supported by you and other mentors in the program. Remember, it's not our job to tell them the "one and only" way to be an engineer. It's our job to get them interested and excited about engineering. They'll figure out their own style as they go.

Re: Research says: Feminine STEM role models do not motivate girls
 

Whoa, don't drive yourself crazy! Your job is simply to do what you do best as well as you can.

None of us can inspire EVERYONE, but our hope is to inspire SOMEONE. There may be some aspiring PhD's who will be turned off by my decision not to strive for the highest level (but I hope that there are other PhD women out there to inspire them). And there may be others who see my situation who might think, "I could never get a PhD, but I can still be involved in STEM and have a family like her." STEM is not one-size fits all, and the more options we can demonstrate to others, the wider reach we'll have. Our job is not to be the "perfect STEM model", but to demonstrate one of many possible options. The last thing we want to do is give the impression that this is the "right" or "only" way to do it.

If we operate with integrity and dedication, I don't think we have to worry about turning people off, even if they choose to go in a different direction than we do. The biggest potential turn-offs:

1. Using femininity to unfair advantage. One of my engineering profs had a policy of no make-up exams, stated clearly on the syllabus. A female student went into his office, scantily clad, and was able to obtain a make-up exam, after a number of male students had made the same request just minutes before and been rejected. That action caused much grumbling among male (and other female) students.

2. Having an inflated idea of one's abilities, and expecting special privileges because we're girls. A female student scoring the 650 on her math SAT was surprised to be rejected from MIT because "650 is a great score for a girl." But it's not a great score for an MIT engineering applicant.

Whether you're "too girly" or "not girly enough" won't be the pivotal issue. Most essentially, do you enjoy engineering, and are you good at one or more aspects of it? If your character and your passion for the subject are genuine, the other pieces naturally will fall into place.

Re: Research says: Feminine STEM role models do not motivate girls
 

I've been following this thread and I think Katie is bringing up an excellent discussion regarding impact. Women who have the credentials and the skill sets who are making an impact as role models. The key word is impact and I think that is a valuable topic to discuss, especially regarding Chief Delphi members and members of FIRST who can and do serve as role models. The reason that I think this is valuable here in CD and in FIRST is because we have role models impacting young people in influential and powerful ways - every day. Ways that the role models may not ever be aware of.

In Chief Delphi, it would be great to see more women submitting white papers and designs for others to view, ask questions about, use as resource material. In FIRST, it would be great to see more women working together to knock our socks off at a Championship conference presentation. At a Regional or District level, it would be great to see more women working together, creating innovative opportunities for teams to talk and network with them. There are all sorts of opportunities for women to promote STEM initiatives, engineering experiences, and career choices. There are opportunities to network with and participate in other programs and share that information.

Each person that serves as a mentor is making an impact, for better or for worse. That's the reality. When the mentors figure out how to maximize that opportunity and act on it - that's when it really starts to get interesting and that's when change occurs. I think this discussion is actually about change. Cultural change and strengthening the process that creates the change.

Thanks for creating this thread, Katie. It's a good one.

Jane

Re: Research says: Feminine STEM role models do not motivate girls
 

I should've mentioned that I am not going to change who I am. That would be ridiculous and something I know I am not capable of. But its more of just wondering what the impact I have on my students is. Wouldn't someone want to know if they were having a negative influence/impact?

I really want to add to what Jane has said, but I will save that for another hour when I am more awake.

Re: Research says: Feminine STEM role models do not motivate girls
 

Even though I am a guy, I think I can relate to the mysteries of one's influence on a team. In my case, its not so much gender but other things.

For my first 3 years of FRC I was on a HS sponsored team... Which meant that unfortunately a lot of the drama that occurred during the school day would cross over to the time on the team. During my HS years I was loved by a select few but hated by many. I also was popular for a short time, winning a slot on Homecoming court my sophomore year. This too was short lived, which turned into more enemies and bad relations. What a painful lesson to learn.

Robotics was the one thing I was great at, but even on the team I had many enemies (I could go on for a long rant on that). I know that my presence caused a few people not to join due to the hatred. One even quit after a year just because he couldn't stand being seen with a team I was on. I do know of one person who my presence helped feel more at home on the team, but most everybody else came from a different background and fit the mold of the usual rich student who was the child of a local engineer (My family wasn't rich and no close relatives have an engineering background). In fact, combined with the fact that I was the only freshman in 2008, my first year was rough socially, as I was only accepted by a couple Leading Juniors and the mentors. Despite a strong junior year and a Dean's list finalist, only half of the students really embraced me as a member by the time I moved away to another city and another team.

I have always wondered whether I hurt or helped the team's image. I may never know. What I do know is that the year after I joined many students from a background not unlike mine made the jump and joined. Whether I was part of that or just a spectator to a large change is mystery.

However, I don't regret what I did on the team. I try to focus on the good I did for the team in terms of my work and knowedge. Do what you do, and give it your best. You are who you are, make the best of it in whatever ways you can.

Re: Research says: Feminine STEM role models do not motivate girls
 

Katie - Thanks for bringing up this very thought provoking topic!! I was just reading Brain Rules, and they have a great chapter on actual physiological differences between the male and female brain. To me the most interesting were some of the studies on how men & women communicated in the workplace and even younger students in the classroom.

You make some really great points here, and with some in depth thinking, I have to wonder why we actually disassociate attractiveness from ability to be good at STEM... I don't know if its just a generalization (look around an engineering college, really, what percentage of people there are really attractive?? I hate to say it but far less than a liberal arts school), but I wonder what drives that. To me, someone who takes the time to do hair and makeup is a very detail oriented person... so why couldn't they be detail oriented in their work? Is it just that we think that hour getting ready would be better spent on technical thought?

Interesting background... when I started at Draper, I was put on a set of programs of which two had incredibly attractive technical leads that are my age. One was a male, one a female. I was actually somewhat intimidated, thinking "jeez, are all of the leaders here gorgeous??". Thinking back though, I realize I never once questioned their technical ability. In getting to know both of them, the female was incredible technically skilled, and the male was one of the best leaders I have ever had. Both very quickly became my role models here at work. Though I will admit, neither one of them once discussed how long it took to get ready in the morning, or how they picked out their shoes, or how much they spent on clothes... it was all business. So I would guess there is some merit to them proving themselves technically and not discussing anything that could perceivably be related to attractiveness (ie the lipstick in the video).

Plenty have already responded to this, but what they say is true. Though to get more into the second post... while it is good to have an awareness of other's perceptions of you, you cannot have a fear of their perceptions. I'm fairly certain I've told this story before, but in 1511's second year, I was overwhelmed when we "lost" Chairmans and won EI. I should have been excited, but the intensity of the moment got to me, so I went off in a corner (I felt as a leader, this feeling was "wrong") as tears streamed my face. Several students found and surrounded me, and many others took on a similar emotional stance. I found out later that night a student's 10yr-old brother was getting on the bus and said "see when Kim cries, the whole team cries". It blew my mind. I had no idea I had that kind of influence. And I was immediately afraid of my every action. But I then realized that I was going to learn and grow with the team, and I would NOT be perfect and controlled at every step, and that was completely ok for the students to see that. I did become more aware of the team's perceptions of me, and often used it to figure out how to motivate others, how to be more inspirational. But I still made plenty of mistakes. Role models are human. Its easier to relate to humans. Katie - all of us have so much to learn, and especially the college mentors - focus on growing yourself, and the girls you inspire will grow along with you. Continue to be aware of your surroundings and other's perceptions, but don't let them drive how you act, or what is at your core.

Jess definitely has a way more concise way of what took me an entire paragraph!

There have been many discussions on this already... I guess the real question is HOW do we make this happen? How do we get our female role models to strive for these Rock Star positions? I actually think a lot of what I read in the Brain Rules book may be a lot of the reasoning behind it. The question is how do we work with that, or even around that, to get more females to pursue these positions? I would love to see a study or some statistics on how many female mentors are Technical vs non-Technical. I honestly have no idea.

Also, I know there have been many discussions on the "it doesn't matter if the role model is male or female". And to some extent I agree, but then I realized, when I was seeking out a mentor here at work, I decided that I wanted to find "a female in a high position that was approachable and also had a family." While young girls may not have exactly the same thought process yet (or maybe they do unconsciously), to me, there is something different about going through motherhood that you just cannot "bond" with a guy over. Sure there are plenty of amazing dads (my dad included!), but I want to know that a woman can successfully go through childbirth, perhaps take some time off, perhaps work part time, and then still come back to be successful. I was incredibly lucky that I found exactly that woman here at Draper, and I'm certain there are others. It makes me feel relieved to know that I can actually have that kind of life. While I think stay-at-home moms are amazing, thats not what I am aiming for at the moment, so I want to see that a woman can succeed in an engineering field past that period of life. If I want role models that are good technically, or role models that are good leaders - I don't really care if they are male or female. But if I want a Role model who is the full PERSON that I want to be, well, she has to be a she! (This by no means is the case for every female - you can be incredibly successful and never be married or never have kids, but it just represents who I want to be).

This has been a very intriguing topic with a lot of great points :) Keep up the great discussion!

Re: Research says: Feminine STEM role models do not motivate girls
 

Just a quick comment...

I don't necessarily equate Rock Star status with prestige, influence, and impact. That sets people apart. What I would like to see women do, is learn to work more closely together in support of STEM initiatives, shedding the spotlight on their work, their career paths, and the opportunities that are available. If that propels them into Rock Star status, cool.

Jane

Re: Research says: Feminine STEM role models do not motivate girls
 

I think the HOW would be an excellent thing to talk about and brainstorm on.

In 2011 I experienced three different problems relating to Females getting involved with Engineering:

1. I had a student who felt that she had to fight harder then the boys on the team to have her voice be heard when discussing the 2011 robot design and who had no female engineering mentor on her team. She had a hard time feeling confident on the team.

2. I was talking with two girls who were doing a video project, and I asked them what they were majoring in (sadly I was already expecting them to say they wanted to major in communications or multi-media). One said they wanted to go into a medical field and one wanted to get involved with electrical engineering. When I asked what part of the team they were a part of they said the communications side.

3. I was talking to another mentor who had been trying to get females from a large engineering company to come in and talk to their students about being a women in STEM and they couldn't find ANY women who would be willing to take the time and talk with these girls.


Because of these experiences I felt that some ways of encouraging more girls to get involved with STEM could be:

A. Working to raise girls confidence levels when working with STEM

B. Encourage more female engineers to become involved with STEM


I haven't quite figured out HOW to create a program that works on raising girls confidence levels when working with STEM so if people have ideas on projects, programs, or events that focus on building that up, that would be great.


For encouraging more female engineers to become involved with STEM:

1. I've contacted the local College Chapter of Society of Women Engineers (SWE) and requested to have a breakout session at their Regional Conference in February 2013 to talk about FIRST.

2. For the conference I've been working on gathering video interviews of Female Engineering mentors and students in FIRST who are talking about WHY they mentor, and what they get out of it, and why other women should consider becoming a mentor to the program. I'm hoping that the video will allow me to actually show the members of SWE how important their mentoring could be and encourage them to get involved.

Video has been taken at champs for this, and I'm going to be at IRI working on this as well. PM me if you know anyone who should be interviewed and will be at IRI or would be interested in this.

3. Creating a marketing campaign to get more female judges from companies who support FIRST at regional events (This is in progress).


Does anyone have other ideas for HOW to encourage more girls to go into STEM, HOW to build up their confidence, and HOW to get more female engineering mentors involved?

Renee

Re: Research says: Feminine STEM role models do not motivate girls
 

I guess we've been blessed with years and years of confident, bossy girls. :)

Re: Research says: Feminine STEM role models do not motivate girls
 

IMHO you hit the nail on the head. Nice post.

Re: Research says: Feminine STEM role models do not motivate girls
 

Competence is the foundation of confidence, and when girls achieve a certain level of proficiency, it's much easier for them to be heard. Training in how to present ideas with concrete reasoning is a skill that will improve both their confidence and their effectiveness.

A person (guy or girl) who says, "I think a scissor lift would be more effective than a 6-bar this year, because the density of the objects in this year's game exacerbates the torque requirement of the longer 6-bar" will get more listeners than, "I think we should use a scissor lift." Someone who can present their idea with a CAD rendering, photo of another team's similar design, a built prototype of their mechanism using simple parts, or even a hand-drawn sketch also has an edge.

I've had girls who are very well-respected, because they were willing to do the work to get good. They came in humbly as learners, and after reaching a certain level of competence, they shared opinions, which were embraced and used. These girls have taken on heavily technical roles, like head programmer and builder.

Other girls came in as newbies with the attitude, "I'm as good as everyone else here, and we should all be treated as equals." Their ideas were ignored, and rather than saying, "I was ignored as a newcomer" they reported, "I was ignored because I'm a girl."

The LAST thing I want to give my girls is a sense of entitlement -- "We deserve to be listened to because we're girls." In these days and times, girls sometimes get passed over for being girls, but sometimes also get special treatment for the same, and getting in the habit of expecting that special treatment as a "given" does not serve anyone well.

P.S. Thanks, Katie, for starting this thread. I've really enjoyed it and hope my responses haven't been overly strident.

Re: Research says: Feminine STEM role models do not motivate girls
 

Those are the girls that pave the way for other girls.
Those are also the girls we aren't as worried about, because they (and I) are what I have recently found out to be anomalies. :)

I have enjoyed every word of your post. Quoted for added emphasis.

Re: Research says: Feminine STEM role models do not motivate girls
 

(Agreed with Katie.) There's also a good deal of sample bias for many FRC teams: self-selection for this is usually to confident, bossy people--especially girls because it helps overcome the, at least statistically, negative stereotype both labeled on them externally and held internally.

In fact, we have the same confident girl phenomenon that you do, but the girls on the periphery and unfortunately the ones we've missed or lost completely were very definitely in line with this thread, more so than the boys (who tend to genuinely realize they just don't enjoy it). In fact, with gender-neutral recruiting, we've considered [completely unscientifically] that it isn't because most girls are more--or even generally equal--to guys in confidence and these other facets, but because the ones that are tend to be more mature.

Understandably but unfortunately, the overall population does not have the same concentration of self-assurance. If all these people--men and women--were following other dreams with full confidence and support, what a wonderful world we'd have. Given the research though, there's very strong evidence of external pressures steering away from that vision.

Re: Research says: Feminine STEM role models do not motivate girls
 

And miniscule sample sizes. I have been asked repeatedly over the years how we attained and maintained a 30-50% female participation rate on a yearly basis -- and without having female mentors (we now have one; a former student) -- and my answer is always the same:

I don't know.

Re: Research says: Feminine STEM role models do not motivate girls
 

Our answer to that is, "It just takes one." We've meant that with regard to one female student. I do know that, as a technical mentor, the world would be my oyster. As a non-technical mentor, I've had many graduating seniors thank me for being a role model, even though I'm tough. :) As a technical mentor, I think I would really be on the receiving end of gratitude and appreciation. But.. I can only imagine.

Jane

Re: Research says: Feminine STEM role models do not motivate girls
 

Your entire post is beautiful. I dunno how else to say it.

Sorry for not having anything useful to contribute... all I can say is that I built confidence by taking over a dying section of my team (it was the Animation committee, not very engineer-y... but that's how I got into the team after all) and then becoming a leader through steps...

Re: Research says: Feminine STEM role models do not motivate girls
 

If there is anyone interested in helping me encourage more female engineering mentors to get involved with STEM and will be at the 2012 IRI please see this thread:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...16#post1178116

Thank you!

Renee

Re: Research says: Feminine STEM role models do not motivate girls
 

A few points...

Yes, traditionally "feminine" women get a lot of flak, and yes, it doesn't surprise me to hear that young women can be turned off by feminine STEM role models. The women who have paved the way in STEM fields have often done so by becoming "one of the guys": jeans and cargo pants, ThinkGeek shirts, hoodies, duct tape wallets, etc. And that's all just fine. I did that myself for years. But when a manager at work pulled me aside at one point and suggested I start dressing more professionally to reflect the roles I'd taken on, and I thus started dressing in trousers, blouses, and heels, I was surprised at the comments I got from people -- always "joking", of course, but still negative and problematic in aggregate . "You don't look like an engineer!" "How can you be our cool geek girl if you're wearing pearls?" etc etc etc. So now that the stereotype of engineers is not just "geeky men in free Linux distro tshirts" but is moving toward "geeky men and women in free Linux distro tshirts", we've created a new stereotype that many young women who are traditionally feminine may not fit. On the other hand, the young women who are maybe attracted to STEM fields because they are the ThinkGeek shirt-wearing geeks will be turned off if suddenly all the STEM outreach for women changes to "Attractive feminine women in heels" -- that might be exactly the kind of girl they feel bullied or intimidated by in school, and the last thing they want to do is go into a field that is advertised as being for the same women they're trying to avoid. The problem is the extreme generalizations one way or another about young women and their interests, whether it's "they're not interested in STEM at all" or "they'll only be interested if it can be about sewing and lipstick". Surprise, women aren't all the same! And we need to find ways to attract *all* of them, not just a specific type. So there needs to be space for outreach to appeal to different types of women without criticism.

To address another point, from the perspective of someone who gets to be a (literal) poster child and role model for women in STEM, it's frankly exhausting. And I'm early in my career; I can't even imagine with the Marissa Mayer, Helen Greiner, etc types have had to deal with. It's an incredibly rewarding thing, to get to talk with younger students and get them excited about the things I'm passionate about, don't get me wrong. It's something I love to do. But when you're the go-to token Tech Woman, you start having to turn down offers because your day job (and FIRST!) keep you so busy, and not only that, you feel as though you're under a lot of scrutiny. Once you have a reputation as a Woman in Tech you start worrying about how your own decisions affect that. What if I get into project management and out of the day-to-day technical stuff, am I selling out and not being "STEM" enough? Is that too stereotypical of women? What if I move somewhere else because of my partner's job; am I going to disappoint people who expect me to be more focused on my career, even if I can find ways to keep it going in the new place? I'm still a few years away from starting a family, but I'm already panicking about what I'm "supposed" to do about maternity leave (and articles like this really don't help -- there doesn't seem to be any right answer that doesn't inspire judgement and criticism).

People were responding to another poster telling her not to worry or go crazy thinking about this stuff. But I completely understand her and I do it too. When you're so often the only woman available as a role model, you feel a lot of pressure to make sure you're doing it "right". And to those of us who didn't necessarily have female role models doing exactly what we wanted to do, we feel it is incumbent upon us to manage to show everyone else that "it" can be done, whatever "it" is for us -- having the high-profile job, being heavily involved in some other hobby or organization, being feminine while still being a well-respected engineer, successfully managing a family, whatever. Whether or not that's sane or reasonable to feel is beside the point; the point is that many of us DO feel this pressure and it's affecting what and how we're able to contribute to these outreach efforts.

So why can't you get female engineers to come mentor, to come speak, to come be role models? Because they're probably already doing it a whole lot, and whether it's because of schedule or because of feeling a little drained, they may just not be able to do it yet another weekend.

What's the solution? Well, if I knew that, I'd be a lot less stressed about this. But I wonder if maybe (perhaps paradoxically) the answer is to get *more* women, at the same time, in to mentor/speak/etc at the same time as multiple men. Make it incidental that there are female role models present; don't make it the focus. It takes pressure off them if they're not told PLEASE COME REPRESENT HALF THE POPULATION AND TELL OUR FEMALE STUDENTS HOW TO SUCCEED.

Have you ever noticed that half our judges at the Boston Regional are female? That's intentional. But we don't point it out. We don't make a big deal of it. We don't recruit judges of either sex, or of any ethnic or racial minority, or of any age, or of any particular occupation, saying "Please come be our token [whatever] judge!" We just put together a good, interesting group of people who represent different races, different sexes, different ages, different levels of nerdiness or femininity or fashion-consciousness, and different ways to engage with STEM in real life. And we let the students decide who among that group can be the most meaningful role model(s) for them, and hope that we've done a good thing to provide so many different kinds of inspiration.

I don't mean to denigrate the efforts of STEM outreach that focuses on female role models. I think that's good and that it can work. But people have pointed out where it doesn't seem to be working and the trouble they have finding women willing to help out, and I wanted to address some of the reasons I think that is the case.

Re: Research says: Feminine STEM role models do not motivate girls
 

There are a lot of complex & nuanced factors that contribute to this kind if pressure. The pressure is real, but I think it can be kept manageable if a few guiding principles are kept in mind.

1. Appearance (not just clothing, but the whole persona) matters, especially in certain jobs (e.g. PR), but every job has a range/continuum of acceptability. If we pick the most comfortable place (suitable to our talents and temperament) along that continuum, we'll reduce the stress. If there's no place on that continuum that's suitable, perhaps we're in the wrong job or volunteer position (one reason I've never aspired to become a politician).

2. Appearance matters some, but it's not everything (how often we say this, but do we really believe it?). When I was in academic research, I tended to dress Bohemian, as I was surrounded by research profs and grad students who were similarly wardrobe-challenged. A medical school intern at the lab had teased me on my worn and torn garb, but it must not have mattered much because he later 1) spoke favorably of my technical skills to someone else, and 2) asked me out :-)

3. No matter what we do or say, we will please some people and disappoint others. Rather than carrying the weight of that disappointment, if we chalk it up to a normal part of being human, we'll sleep better. Strategically prioritizing and choosing who to cater to/disappoint also helps. For example, as a jr. college instructor, I have students who like to chit-chat and text, and others who like a quiet learning environment. I can't satisfy both of those groups at once, so I have chosen to have a no talking/no electronic device policy that I enforce. It means that I have enemies, but also some extremely loyal students who appreciate the more professional climate. (My attire these days is also more "school-marm" than Bohemian, to bolster my credibility/authority.)

4. We tend to be our own worst critics. Really.

The most inspiring role models are those who do something well and love what they do. While every job (paid or unpaid) will have frustrations, if there's no joy at all, perhaps it's time to pull back and/or re-evaluate. Yesterday, a friend expressed that after 10 years of a high-prestige job that she initially enjoyed, the only part she now likes is the paycheck. Thankfully, she's taking steps to move to something that has already "grabbed her heart," and her ability to be a positive influence will be enhanced by that passion. Burn-out doesn't help us or others, so it's good to find levels that are sustainable, even if it means sometimes saying "no" to an opportunity to present or mentor.

After 30+ years in STEM, I'm still lovin' it. The joy of creating/discovering something cool has evolved into different forms over the years, but it's still there, and no opinion of others can take away that joy. I'd like to think that there's some appeal in that for other women who might follow in my wake.

Re: Research says: Feminine STEM role models do not motivate girls
 

I love robotics; even though I’m not and engineer I have stayed involved with FIRST currently mentor two teams 254 and 1868 and work with more than a few others. However robotics isn’t the only thing I love, I love my horses and working out and clothes and most importantly of all I adore shoes. For those who don’t know me because I’m the only female mentor for 254, they might because I’m the one who runs around in high heels all the time. More than once I have had my abilities to be a good mentor questioned solely because of how I looked. I’m still baffled that in our current pop culture jeans and heels is even worth noting or commenting on in terms of fashion.

I have to question what is wrong with our girls if the fact that I have on heels and make up is enough to make some girl not be an engineer (if that is what she loves). Why don’t we focus more on teaching our children that you get to be exactly who you want to be and if that means you never put on make-up great! And if you love it wear it! But I worry about this generation of girls and the ones to come if something as stupid as my fashion choices render them unable to stand up for something they want. . . it just seems like there is a bigger problem than fashion.

That said as a side note (and I’m sure some of this is the team I mentor and it’s reputation we are trying to fix) but the women of FIRST with very few notable exceptions have not been welcoming and more than a few have suggested I cannot be a good role model for STEM and be who I am. Fortunately for me, lack of confidence has never been my problem :D so I have the ability to laugh and go congratulate my students on their successes. That said there has been more than one time where I have legitimately almost said “%*# I’m out” because if I hear one more comment about being pretty or girlie or what ever making me a bad role model I was going to break something. But if we as a group are going to be this unwelcoming to new women and try to run them out because of fashion no wonder there are not many female mentors in FIRST and no wonder our girls have such a hard time accepting some one other than the cookie cutter “nerd girl” who is too smart to care about how she looks.

Re: Research says: Feminine STEM role models do not motivate girls
 

I think you're misinterpreting these studies. Feminine STEM role models do not significantly undercut girls who are already confidently interested in STEM (can be inspirational for some). Rather, examples of feminine STEM role models in these studies discouraged girls who hadn't yet considered/become invested in the option. (Though one study does indicate that they can undercut girls' perception of their abilities regardless of whether they're pre-invested or not.) I agree that we should be teaching everyone to follow their dreams regardless of their view of the role models in the field, but the problem is less getting driven away from what you love and more about never realizing the option for it in the first place (rather different issue).

Most of these studies are in direct response to the deliberate feminizing of science to recruit girls and 'open their eyes' to STEM (which have arguably been closed to it by other societal factors). The argument is this is not effective and can actually be detrimental and eye-closing rather than eye-opening.


As for a lack of acceptance of the women in STEM, that's weird. Guys, yeah, all the time (:rolleyes:). But women, I've never seen/had that before...

Re: Research says: Feminine STEM role models do not motivate girls
 

I think it's less the fact that some women wear makeup and dresses than it is that a lot of the campaigns that try to appeal to girls are belittling. The European campaign's video is basically an amalgam of "science-y" things (but also a lot of makeup products?) and girls laughing together as dreamy male model scientist looks on. I think the main problem with the video is that none of the things the girls are doing seem very tangible. Sure, there are like, vague images of beakers and giant math equations, but I don't know what exactly they're doing, nor do I know if it's something I'd like!

The issue is not an imaginary dichotomy between femininity and STEM--women in these fields are doing a ton of interesting and unconventional things! We have people designing clothes with sewable electronic components, origami that moves on its own, people making tiny terrariums, kids making free video games for their friends, and so much more! For this reason I think stuff like Maker Camp is much more effective than a 30 second ad that tells girls it's okay to like science but doesn't give them any way to actually break into these fields. Like, I have access to a pop star telling me how to make some sweet sunglasses with some LEDs. That sort of thing that is a real, tangible experience that is totally relatable to my life, and the things I like to do (aka having sweet sunglasses). It also gives me some experience in electronics, and maybe I end up liking tricking out my clothes and accessories so much that I consider something like electrical engineering as a career! Even if I don't and end up becoming a professional underwater basket weaver, I've learned something new and had fun doing it.

Instead of marketing STEM as something we should not be ashamed of, give us opportunities to make and do things that we might not have known about or had the guts to do before due to lack of resources or experience.

haha oh man that was one long first post, sorry guys

Re: Research says: Feminine STEM role models do not motivate girls
 

Jess - I could not have said it better myself. I will admit that I too wonder sometimes if I am the "best" role model for the young women on our team... and I try to remind myself, each time I hear this question whispered in my mind, that I can only do my best... just like every other mentor. My answer is to try to relate to what they are looking for, sharing my experience, and helping them achieve their goals in whatever way I can.

I totally agree with this point as well... and I have seen it way too many times, oddly enough, from the Girl Scouts as well. Almost every science program they offer somehow relates STEM to makeup or some other very girly topic, totally alienating the girls who are actually interested in STEM in the first place. This has been a point of frustration expressed to me by many young women who have given up on scouts because of that lack of substance in their program.

Re: Research says: Feminine STEM role models do not motivate girls
 

My apologies in necro'ing a thread, but a spotlight post spoke to me, and I followed it, and I read, and I am called to post...

Inspiration can come from any angle - the key is to be there to fan it to a flame when the spark lands.

3946 currently has no female technical mentors (Wendy has a science degree, but her main role is with safety contracts, ordering shirts, and organizing transportation and lodging.) Despite this, we have consistently had about a 2:3 mix of girls and boys on the team right from year one.

Case studies: Victorija: I don't know how she was recruited, but she was one of our best mechanical students in 2013. She's now majoring in ME at LA Tech, her younger brother is on the team (heap big fundraiser last year as a freshman), and her mother drove me up to St. Louis last year. I've never seen nor met her father. She came to the team knowing what she wanted to do, and learned a good bit from us.

Robin: A great team member the last three years, and our most accomplished student solderer to date. Even though she decided that she needed to take a job this year rather than sticking with the team, she supported us through tryouts this fall to teach soldering. I have no idea whether her career will be in STEM, but I know I'm not the only mentor who will provide her with an excellent reference whatever she decides to do with her life. (OBTW, she was one of only two human players I know of who threw litter over an FRC defensive net in 2015, both at Bayou Semifinals match #2.)

Veronica: In the interest of full disclosure, my daughter. I was a bit surprised when she joined the team, as VJ has no interest in a STEM career (she's intending to become a signer for the deaf). She grew up in my home, and though she tried to deny geekhood, it was in the blood. (Though it didn't work out, her mother and I met at a science fiction convention.) When we earned a trip to St. Louis, her sales ability (from her mother or perhaps my brother, not me), raised her to second on the team (just behind Leevi, Victorija's brother).

MaryEllen: Wow! This is her sophomore year, but she's already shown me more capability than some of our graduates. I don't know what we did to deserve her, or to recruit her, but I fully expect her to be a success in whatever she decides to pursue. With two Mary Ellens per year, an eight-student team would probably be dominant at just about any regional. I don't know what inspired her, or what keeps her, but I'm hoping for a repeat.