What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

What do you like about the Kit of Parts? What did you not like in it? Is there anything special you'd like to see in the future?

The 10 Dean's List Winners from this past season (myself included) are going to be having our chat with some of FIRST's suppliers this Friday (July 13) regarding their KOP plans for next season. If there's anything YOU would like us to pass on, we'll do our best to make the opinions we find here on Chief Delphi known.

Apologies for the somewhat late notice for this year in particular, but I figure it will be useful to have a thread going that future Dean's List Winners can take a look at as well, not to mention FIRST's suppliers themselves (if they spend time on Chief Delphi - we'll tell them about it :) ).

So, have at it! KOP compliments, comments, concerns, suggestions - anything is fair game.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

Super easy -

It will require a rule change from the past years robot rules though.

There should be a 12V 3 or 4 amp-hour sealed battery that is used to ONLY power the radio bridge.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

This one's been on my list for a while: improved window motor hubs. I've seen them in just about every FRC kit, going back to 2004. In the near-decade since, FRC has seen the kit landscape change greatly...and standardize on all the mounting interfaces that these aren't. Very few shafts on modern FRC robots are bigger than 1/2", yet we always have to throw some 5/8" keyed shaft on our McMaster-Carr order if we want to use them. The #10 1.875" bolt circle is the de facto standard for sprocket mounts, yet the hub is still taking 1/4" bolts in a square.

I appreciate a good engineering challenge, but these workarounds are more or less givens. I'd love to see them updated for what's out there to hook to it.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

Agreed with the above, great idea with the radio battery.
More victors and electronics in general.
More vouchers so we can pick and choose what we want for example we haven't touched the igus bag in the past 2 years.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

I don't know if anyone else noticed, but this year in the kit of parts we got at least 10 of the small fans used on victors. I realize that some teams do use fans to cool CIM motors and various other components, but i feel these fans are just so small they are pretty useless. We (team 1247) have a pile of fans, ranging from the older style metal chassis ones, 120mm fans, and a box load of these tiny fans.

Point: Less of the small fans, more of the larger, more useful(?) fans.

My two cents.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

Or just change it to rules similar to the servo rules; Allow any PC fan within X size range or airflow (spec'd in cfm, most are) as long as it is used purely for cooling and no mechanical attachment is made to the rotary output.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

The same amount of motors as this years kit. It made a world of difference.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

Well, I'll say what I WOULDN'T like in the KoP.

Software.

Make all software downloadable via a secure site.

OK, so maybe include a copy in the KoP, but make all software available online. It's really frustrating when your team loses a piece of software and has to get a copy from a local team.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

A microcontroller would be nice:

Arduinos are great for testing sensors,
Beaglebones can be used for vision,
Pandaboards/micro-atx can be used for the Kinect.

It's not a crime to keep dreaming. ;)

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

We don't use much of the KOP anymore. Its getting emptier and emptier as every year goes on.

I would honestly like to see:

-More Victors! We use hella speed controllers.
-SMC Solenoids
-More Batteries!
-Additional Electronics
-The old compressor

More or less, I'd like to get the rookie KOP for veterans.

-RC

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

More of a rule change than anything, but allowing for 1 or 2 more cim motors would be a nice thing to see since most teams use up all 4 in their drivetrain. The cim-sim and cim-u-lator are nice but why go through the extra hassle with dealing with those when you could just as easily use a cim. Possibly open up the motor variety as well. Would also put in a vote for more victors in the kit (especially for veteran teams like ours) or even a new motor controller option (we avoid using jag's at all costs). Possibly a new robot controller with a smaller footprint than the cRio, not to mention a less finnacy rc. Not asking for a return of the ifi controllers (even though I personally wouldn't mind that), but a newer/more reliable controller. That's just a few off the top of my head

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

The option to choose Victors or Jaguars. Also better quality PWM cables, possibly with different lengths (12", 24", 36")

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

New things I liked that we made good use of:

Expanded FIRST Choice through AndyMark
Banebots voucher
Digikey Voucher

What I'd like to see:

More Victor motor controllers. This is the big thing we always need many of and get shorted on every year, and our old robots are not functional anymore because we can't afford more Victors every year. I would gladly do without probably 50% of the rest of the kit for more Victors.

More CIM motors (can't recall a time when we didn't use the maximum allowed, which was more than what was included).

#25 Chain and master links, FR8-ZZ bearings, black zip ties and black adhesive mounts, heat shrink, some non-insulated flanged spade terminals that fit Victors (must be flanged), Sharpie markers (original type) since people always lose or take them.

A good chain breaker tool for #25 chain (the normal type aren't good for #25).

More game pieces if they're proprietary (we always need more, they always wear out/pop/etc, and it's always a wait).

McMaster Carr voucher.

Banebots CIM-U-LATOR gearboxes and/or P60 planetaries.

Home depot gift card, if the field requires anything from Home Depot.

Printed promotional materials for FIRST Robotics (a stack of brochures for instance)

or

Nothing in the kit except essential required things, and some money off the registration fee. (And I know the KOP is largely donations and is not entirely directly correlated to registration fee.) In terms of physical things in the KOP crate, I can't even recall using anything this past season that's included that's not required.

Anyhow, I do thank all the suppliers for their generous contributions. Even if we don't use a lot of this stuff right now, perhaps someday we may.

As a note on software, I actually like receiving physical install media. It's instant gratification, and it's easier for me to keep it locked up somewhere, than to remember or find a login to some online system. Ideally we'd have both.

Aside from all of the above, what I would like most is advance notice of specifications of key items that are both expensive and required but not included for veteran teams for the upcoming season (e.g. cRIO, motor controllers). This would allow the school district to purchase it for us and have it show up in time, rather than mentors having to buy it out of pocket. If someone can definitively tell me the cRIO that is available now is the exact one that will be used next year and there will be no new or better model available, I'd like to have my school's purchasing people order one now, so I get it before kickoff. Schools are notoriously slow at such things, so it helps when we know ahead of time that we need to spend big money.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

Why not make your own :P Its fairly cheap and a lot better than buying them.

-RC

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

We recently purchased all the necessary materials to do so at Hansen Hobbies! Still learning (poor terminals)!

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

Globe Motors

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

Allow larger quantities of whichever motor is allowed possibly with a maximum overall limit. This would allow for better standardization and fewer spares. Larger servos.

I am hoping to get a 12V _18V powertool allowance. This would allow the usage of any 12-18V cordless powertool as a motor and gearbox. Hopefully this would create better options for mechanisms, and reduce some of the supply side burden for companies like banebots. Plus there are many great little gearboxes for cordless scredrivers and drills that currently require removing 1 550 motor to install a "legal" 550 motor.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

How about a van door and some fisherprice 0673's. Actually more motors in general would be nice. Also more victors would help a lot, and maybe a radio. (basically any electronics that we need on a yearly basis, no more cannibalizing old robots)

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

Assortment of gear boxes??? Maybe banebots per chance? I would love for the kit to come with 1 or 2 BB gear boxes.
Battery charger in veteran kit, you can never have to many Battery's charging at once.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

To everyone who answered a variety of motor controllers (victors please) plus the assortment of other electronics - I agree. That would be quite appreciated. Although helpful, I do see how it would be difficult, as victors run $84 a pop, and d-links running $80... but who wouldn't want to see a bunch of high schoolers smile :)

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

More Victors please.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

More victors would be cool, and maybe less jaguars. Of course there are other teams that would say the exact opposite, so maybe an option to get a kit with victors only or one with jags only? I guess this is what FIRST Choice is for

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

More Jags? We ended up magic smoking a lot this year, for various reasons, but we needed 11 motor controllers on the robot... We always like using jags more than victors, but only had 6 workable jags and 5 FIRST-legal victors (a couple were old versions that are now illegal). Just more motor controllers, even for the vet teams like us...

Also, more PWM cables would be nice. We bought some supplies to make our own, but they weren't quite right, and weren't as reliable as the pre-crimped ones... Maybe even if you just gave us the right materials to make custom-lengthed PWMs it would be good! Male/female pins, housing, wire- I know lots of teams that just end up buying these anyways to get the right length. I still owe some really nice kid from grapes of wrath a pwm cable.

It's cool that we got a ribbon cable with connectors on either end (for connecting the sidecar and cRIO), but it'd be even better if we got one more like this - the screws are more secure, and more convenient than putting in your own. I know I'm getting a tad specific here...

Oh yeah! And maybe another battery charger for the vets, and more FIRST stickers. I would always like more wire, connectors, and switches, but this is all kind of wishful thinking :P I do like getting this stuff not through FIRST choice though. It makes things a lot easier, and I think they tend to be needed by every team.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

Is there something unsatisfactory about the AndyMark PG-71?

I agree Globes were great, but I think PG-71s are better. Easier to mount things to their shafts, slightly more metal mass to absorb heat, and very similar characteristics for power and efficiency.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

More CIM motors (still gonna use them for the drive :P)
More victors (we spent more money on victors last year than any other part)
More batteries are always a blessing

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

Alright lets see if we can summarize the input from thus far.. (That way Marina, myself and the other DL winners have a better chance of remembering everything)

- Improved / standardized motor mounting and chain equipment
- More victors and jaguars (although heavy emphasis on victors)
- More vouchers to companies like AndyMark, Banebots, Digikey, McMaster Carr, Home Depot
- Less fans or more useful ones
- Battery for Radio, more robot batteries and battery charger for veterans
- Microcontrollers for testing items
- A larger and more varied motor selection (including but not limited to Globe, van door, fisherprice 0673's, cordless powertool, AndyMark PG-71) especially allowing for CIMs on the robot
- More electronics in general
- The old compressor
- More PWMs and of varying lengths
- Game pieces if they are specialty
- FIRST advertising print material, i.e. brochures, stickers, etc

So far there is mixed opinion on software distribution. And FIRST has signed a contract with NI to use the cRIO through either 2014 or 2015 (my memory lapses..) so you won't see it replaced in till then at the earliest.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

We didn't end up using the PG-71 last year, and the biggest reason I love the Globe Motor was reliability. No offense to the fine folks at AndyMark, but I'll only believe any motor is as reliable as that work horse of a motor when I see it.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

Just an old man $0.02 on the list.

Globe motors are done, no point in asking for them. The PG71 is a great alternative and you can bet AM will be providing more options for these in the coming season to make you forget the globe ever existed.

Last year was the most quantity and most diverse motor selection we have ever had and you guys want to ask for more :)

We would all like more speed controllers, batteries and chargers, maybe it would be wise to ask for these all to be in FIRSTchoice for those who would like to select which speed controllers they want or maybe chargers or batteries instead.

I have no idea why anyone would want that heavy old compressor over the new one, please don't ask for it to come back.

Always can use more game pieces but they were available in FIRSTchoice last year and I was shocked that every team didn't choose them.

The FIRST advert/info is a great idea and every team should get a bunch in every kit.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

Some of us have more weight to spare and less tolerance for an overheating compressor. :)

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

Well we have used the small one for two years and never had a single problem with it and I challenge you to find many teams that use more pneumatics that us.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

A couple of notes:

-Like others have said, we find ourselves turning down the window motor couplers in various ways every year. We almost always end up turning down the funny tapered shaft to be straight round, and using a plastic bushing to support the other end of the coupler. We then usually turn down the coupler to allow us to use the smallest size of AM plate sprocket without the chain hitting the coupler, and drill more mounting holes for the sprocket. Specifically, things I would change to make the coupler more generic and useful:
--Change the shaft size to 1/2" or 3/8", possibly keyed or hexed.
--Outer portion of the shaft coupler should be a standard size and straight (not tapered), allowing a team to use a plastic bushing to support that end of the coupler
--Change the bolt pattern to 1.875" #10 6-bolt circle
--Change the outer diameter of the part so you can use the smallest AM sprocket (32t for 25 chain) without turning down the part

-I really like Victors.

Suggestions:
-Move everything except the required electrical components and CIM motors to FIRST Choice. Possibly throw in some of the strange new motors as well, but the 550 and Window motors are good candidates for outsourcing to AM or Banebots, with provisions for every team to get the legal amount via FIRST Choice and buy more from Andy/Banebots.

-Release all software prior to kickoff, via download. With the changes that are made to the library every year, it would be very nice to not have to learn all of them in the days following kickoff, or waste many hours installing LV on all of the team computers after kickoff. Leave out the vision examples if you want, but provide them separately (as a ZIP of just the vision files, not as part of the library or other example code)

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

More CIMs. This isn't as important (but would still be nice) for veteran teams as it is for rookie teams. A 4 CIM drivetrain is so important to being successful with an at weight robot for the vast majority of games, but the kit only comes with two and the kitbot directions assume you are only using two. As a result you get a bunch of low tier teams using 2 CIMs + other motors when they haven't even used all 4 CIMs yet. I think this single change would improve performance of the lower tier of robots significantly for relatively low cost.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

I like this suggestion for perhaps the rookie kit.

For veterans, I agree with IndySam on his comments about motors and Victors. After seeing teams this season who used most of the motors in the kit (two being 973 and 3928) I'm tempted to say that teams who are unable to find or create solutions may not be trying hard enough. Yes, more motors like CIMs would make the competition easier, but at a certain point I really think we should stop making things easier on teams so we see more engineering involved.

The suggestion of powertools is a good one as well.

Just +0.02

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

I don't know about this suggestion...it might be ok for older teams, but young teams and especially rookies need stuff to play with on kickoff day, rather than waiting a week or two to design something and decide what to order and wait for the order to be processed and shipped (and with all the teams ordering parts, it could take a while).

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

It would be cool if rookie teams or even veterans could get a voucher or coupon for Bosch extrusion or 80/20 if a McMaster voucher is not possible.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

Agreed for veteran teams, not for rookies.


Having the software prior to KO would be great. But FIRST will need to find a webhost site that can deliver a lot of gigabyte sized downloads in a hurry. Right now we can't even download the manual immediately after KO. Software would be impossible without FIRST finding a site to host the download.

Considering that Eric Schmidt is on the USFIRST BOD, maybe google can deliver some of that cloud resource to host the download ?

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

Agreed. Veterans should know the utility of a 4-CIM drive, but considering CIMs are also the most abuse-tolerant of motors the rookies could use that leg up no matter how they use them.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

i think the thing i want most in the KOP (and have for a while) is the Anderson connectors for batteries. not the already made ones but a kit where we can make custom lengths for the robot and the batteries.

to make one connector you need One - SB-50A red plastic connector and
Two - Anderson Power Products crimp contacts (sized for 6 gauge wire)

so a small bag of one or two kits would be nice to have in the KOP every year

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

And a crimping tool.....

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

Seeing AndyMark's listing for the power distribution board, it looks like the nut is just M6. Metric is not as easily available as standard in most areas FRC teams call home, but I found another set at Lowe's to use as jam nuts on our board after a scare at Palmetto.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

Just a few things
-raspberry pi
-arduino
-a real netbook

yeah I like software and hardware a little too much :D

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

MPU-6050

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

but that is what the vise is for.

another great thing to have come in the kit would be a multimeter or even a Battery Beak.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

Multimeters have been in FIRSTchoice both years.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

- Point-and-Shoot camera for team photo taking, which can be loaded onto team websites and blogs. Obviously a one-per-team thing that rookies would only get after the initial year.

- Preconstructed bumbers, or all the resources needed to build them, such as pool noodles and "FIRST color fabric". Everyone is required to have them and construct them in a certian way. Its about time we start getting them in the kits, or at least getting a basic set of full coverage bumpers that go with the kit chassis.

- Gaffers Tape as it is used on the competition field. Especially for competitions that have reflective tape.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

Everything here is great, especially the CIM motors. However, a choice between jaguars or victors would be BEST because teams use one or the other generally, and if only one was given, i could see a lot of them going to waste, and the generosity of FIRST's sponsors should not be wasted. Also, this would allow more of them to be given, so teams can spend less on motor controllers.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

Bumpers are made to interface with your specific bot, so making a generic bumper to go with the kit frame wouldn't be much help. Even for teams that use the kit frame, teams use different mounting holes, as well as long vs. wide drive orientation, so full bumpers in the kit wouldn't be much use.

For example, my team used the kit frame this year. Our bumper mounts had to be moved for IRI because of an improvement that needs the mounting points the bumpers used.

However the fabric would be useful. :D

And how to build a robot instructions would be nice :rolleyes:

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

Yes please! haha. Them sharpies be a hot product for thieves.


Agreed. One centralized location to download software when hard copies of the software (oxy-moron much? ;) ) go missing.


I agree with everything here^



I think it may be worth putting together a poll that includes the items that seem to be a popular choice. I expect that it's best to emphasize one or two things that we would like changed that many seem to agree on rather than trying to make 80 suggestions that all get clustered together and whisked off as impractical.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

vise != crimper !!!

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

A MUST have for every FRC team
we bought a bag of 100 of each of the following items.

• part number 91202A234 Metric Zinc-plated Steel Split Lock Washer, M6 Screw Size, 11.8mm Od, 1.5mm Min Thick
• part number 92497A350 Metric Zinc-yellow Pltd Class 10 Stl Hex Nut, M6 Size,
• part number 94191A150 Mil Spec Grade 8 Steel Hex Nut, 1/4"-28 Thread Size, 7/16" W, 7/32" H, Ms51968-3 1mm Pitch, 10mm Width, 5mm Height

The M6 parts are for the PD, the 28TPS part is for the 120A disconnect.

Every team member is trained on the usage of the M6, 1/4-28, and 1/4-20 parts. Because the average new recruit cannot tell the difference and is gonna mess it up.

If you need those parts, visit our pit, we keep a bag of 100 stock.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

How are we gonna fit that training into the KOP? :p


btw the nuts should not be hard to find, look at the hardware store or an auto parts store. Metric hardware has been used on many American cars for the past 35 years

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

How about making some of the software mac friendly? That would really help for those of us who have macs and don't want to shell out cash for a Windows OS.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

Make a glossy bookmark card that is attractive and has some kind of useful information on one side and a tutorial with pictures on the other side, and put that in the KOP..

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

i know this is a total longshot but i'd like to see a switch from sla to lighter lifepo4 batteries like this

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

Not going to happen in the forseeable future.

Lead acid batteries have a current monopoly on capacity, ability to source current, ease of use & care, and most importantly for FRC purposes, cost.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

And safety, Adam.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

I'm not an expert, but high quality LiFePO4 batteries such as those that are intended for consumer applications are comparably safe to lead acid batteries.

Generic sack based lithium batteries like you see in the RC industry are another story though...

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

I'm also not a battery expert, but I've lived with one and worked with another. I believe the LiFePO4 chemistry to be sufficiently safe for FRC usage. They would be perfect if they didn't cost so much.

However, I would hesitate to use other Lithium based chemistries.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

I don't know how much of this the suppliers can influence... But I would love to see FIRST release some of the Robot Rules information early. Is there any harm in giving us a list of approved motors in November? Or in giving us the required minimum/maximum specs for pneumatics? Or letting us know what the approved electronics are? By releasing some of that information earlier, it would hopefully help relax the strain we see every year on our suppliers. Older, veteran teams with abundant resources can order a bunch of motors before the season starts, while newer teams and those with fewer resources can order during the season. That way, suppliers like Banebots aren't trying to fulfill 3000 orders for a half dozen 550's each all at once. Less stress means the suppliers can plan their inventory a little better and turn around orders quicker. Letting teams get their hands on new motors earlier means we'll have abundant information available from other teams right here on CD when the season starts, giving us a better idea of which motors we want to use (for example, it would be nice to know ahead of time if a motor is prone to overheating, or if teams are finding case shorts, etc).

As for other ideas...

- I'd love to see more items move over to FIRST Choice and vouchers, but that obviously comes with the caveat of schedule. If a team wants to put together the kitbot chassis on day 1, it can't be on FIRST Choice.

- I'd love to have the choice between the c-base chassis and the Nano Tube chassis from AndyMark

- Having purchasable field elements from the start would be great. For example, being able to buy a kit to build a bridge (with performance comparable to competition bridges) would have been ideal this year, since the team-version ended up not having identical performance very easily.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

Or have so much shipping hassle.

I've had some dealings with LiFePO4 batteries--my Lunabotics team used two of them to run a robot. They acted just like SLAs would have (barring chemistry and mass considerations) but gave us no end of headaches getting them shipped down there and back to South Dakota. Apparently to ship them via ground (you can't ship them via air) you have to have a person with some sort of safety certificate to ship them (thankfully, you don't have to have one to receive!)

R/C lithium batteries tend to be dangerous primarily when they are a) punctured or b) charging or c) very hot. If you're charging them, stick them in a flameproof container and set a timer--they should come out all right unless there's some other flaw. If they get puffy, they're considered bad--there's a procedure to safely make them lose all chance of causing problems, involving salt water and puncturing the battery, IIRC. Otherwise, keep them out of heat.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

lipo's also don't like if you draw more than their "c" rating... or if you hit them too hard... but you can transport them easier than a123 batteries. go figure....

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

100 seems overkill, most teams will only use these on the main breaker/PD board so a few extra should be plenty for most teams. Also, I think handing any team 100 split washers that fit almost perfectly on 1/4" bolts will lead to improper usage*.

I think a good item to include in the kit is a book of fabrication techniques such as drilling a hole straight, drilling holes in multiple parts so that the holes line up, and just general things like that. I think that even a lot of veteran teams could fin a use for it, such a training new team members. They don't have to be fancy, they will likely get destroyed every year so it is best to make them cheap and recyclable.

* I would have linked to the NASA document mentioned in this document, but the file seems to be corrupted on the NASA server. There is a chance that something else is at fault so here is the document.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

Some kind of micro-controller such as Arduino or Beaglebones for testing would be really great!

Battery Beak would be really helpful

Cross Platform Software. The only Language that is easily done cross-platform is Java, however your Driver Station has to be Windows still. It is annoying at times to deal with.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

EOQ - economic order quantity.
Transaction cost - the cost the get the purchase done.

We submit orders to McMaster for a variety of things. They deliver it to us in about 4 hours at a cost of $ 4.xx.

Ordering the smallest package from McMaster is not that expensive, and way easier and cheaper than driving all over town to go by a few parts for too much money.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

I'm with Dale on this - I think 90% of the KOP could be omitted and that could be used to help reduce entry fees for the teams. I also agree on the software; all of it should be available to download for free for registered teams, as many times as we need it.

Some of the parts have been defective and/or are incompatible with new regs; parts should be tested beforehand and ONLY those parts that are required for communication updates every year should be provided.

I believe we would see a LOT more adherence to specs and yet more creative solutions if the KOP were reduced greatly. Teams would have to make sure their design solutions are within the strict parameters and not assume that because they are in the KOP it's OK.

Reduce the fees! A lot of the reason we don't see more FIRST groups is because of the high entry fee. There are a plethora of other robotics competitions out there that don't require the financial input. A lot of communities are hard-put to come up with that much. Heck, we can't even afford an art program at our school, anymore....spending $5K on a kit is hard to justify.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

I think you're only spending about $1k on the kit, you still have to pay $4k to enter a second regional.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

My list:

1) Victors

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

Since TI doesn't want to support the jags anymore. Victors may be in the kit of parts. Maybe they could put a real FET driver chip in the victor and take the PWM frequency up and linearize the output. The Allegro chip would be a good choice. Up grade the FET choice and That should make some teams happy and solve the First speed controller sourcing problem. Oh and make the PWM 10 bit and extend the range like the jags. Then we're happy. Oh and make them reverse polarity protected and thermal protected. Then we're real happy.


I'd also like a USB port on the CRIO.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

I'd love an upgraded victor, but the reverse polarity protection adds unnecessary cost combined with a performance loss. Thermal protection would also be unnecessary as Victors have no issues there.

What would be nice is just a victor with a faster refresh rate, the linearizing can be solved in code.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

i'd like to see a speed controller like this. it's basically an upgraded 884 or an 883 equivalent...

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

Why? Powerwise the Victor is more than adequate for every motor ever used in FRC.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

Did you buy batteries from Enersys or MK?

MK has always been in stock and on our doorstep within 2 days of ordering, for the last 4+ years.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

He's referring to the low quantities of batteries available through FIRST Choice I believe.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

I know this isn't specifically for the KOP but it would be nice to mention to FIRST to not make crazy bumper rules where teams spend half of their practice day just figuring out how to get numbers on their bumper. Thanks. :)

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

Bumper backing strips, pool noodles, red and blue cordura, white paint markers

A lot of teams still have difficulty getting their bumpers together legally.

Including the the raw materials in the kit will help immensely!

It will also give the KoP more "completeness" where a team can truly field a 100% competition legal robot using only parts from the KoP.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

All the way across the state of Ohio is a "local team"? :)

Sawzalls and circular saws on the robot!

I second including loose Anderson battery connector kits in the KOP. As a team that rarely, if ever, uses the pre-made pigtails, this would save us some money and headache.

I've been lobbying for this option (which cannot fully replace the pre-made cables - many rookies and other teams likely use them) with the FIRST folks for a while and will continue to do so. Would be a GREAT addition to FIRST Choice.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

JVN

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

"You're gonna need a bigger boat tote" -Brody

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

For what it's worth I've always thought FIRST should get out of the KOP business. None of the other programs have such a thing. I'd much rather have a lower registration fee and just have a list of parts that are allowed or not. You could do an expanded FIRST Choice if you like.

We always end up of with tons of parts we don't use which isn't good for the environment, our budget (with higher reg fees) or our storage. Neither FLL or FTC have a KOP, why does FRC?

I'd also suggest they release the general list of parts you are allowed to use a month BEFORE kickoff at least so teams could order parts they know they'll use before the big day. That would save on shipping. FTC teams know they'll use Tetrix parts, FLL teams know they'll use Lego. FRC teams should be able to count on a base set of parts without guessing.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

I think allowing us to know a general list of parts allowed before is a great thought, but it really would only help veteran teams. Rookie teams with no real veteran support in thier area wouldn't have much of a clue of what they'd really need for compitition. Not everyone in the first world really comes on here, so rookie teams that are completely unaware of CD would be hurt by a reduced/eliminated KOP. I know our team every couple of years just recycles the stuff we don't use anymore (due to new rules/stuff going bad) and it helps raise some funds for our team plus the junk just doesn't end up in some landfill somewhere. And as far as limiting creativity with the expansion of the motor selection to allow for more of one type, creativity can be limited because of unreliablity in the motors we have. I know our team alone burnt up almost a dozen rs-550's this past season, so where's the encouragement to use those motors again if we had so many problems with them these past few years

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

In general, the 550's used in FRC are not unreliable because of any fault in the motor design. Typically only the combination of the motor, the transmission, and the demands on the system result in unreliability. With small, powerful motors, one must do everything necessary to prevent them from stalling or running slow. This means higher reductions, and using sensors to protect the motors if necessary. The 500 size motors we have been allowed to use in the past have been invaluable additions to the list of available motors due to their high power output and their compact size and I would hate to see them go without a suitable replacement to fill the gaping hole it would leave in the motor options available to teams.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

Not be rude,

But the issue here isn't the RS 550 motors. Its more or less the way you are using them and your speed/torque ratio. We have used them in arms/conveyors and numerous applications with zero issues. One example, this year we used a single rs 550 motor for our arm with a gas strut assist. It lifted some serious weight but never got even close to being warm. It was actually the coldest motor on our entire bot. I wish I could say the same for the intake FP's :P

You may be stalling them and not gearing the motor properly for your application. JVN's Calc helps with the math.

Where have you had issues with these motors?

I would hate for these motors to go.

-RC

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

My opinions on motors:

-Many motors prefer operating in various power regions. The CIM motors really don't care (in a 2 minute match), but a few other motors are picky:

--550 sized motors are very power-dense, the most power dense motors in the kit - They're not very much bigger than the 18w throttle control motors, but most of the ones do anything from 180w to 290w peak power. The CIM's are huge (have a lot of thermal mass) and do around ~340w at peak power. Because they produce so much heat for their small size, they have internal fans to cool them. If the fan does not spin while the motor is energized, the motor can't get rid of the heat fast enough, and then parts begin to melt. You then need to use them in an application where they will always spin, by gearing them correctly and never stalling them.

--Many automotive motors have thermal breakers inside. In some power windows, there is actually no sensor, and the button literally controls the motor directly, with the vehicle relying on the thermal breaker to protect the motor. These motors are impossible to burn up in FRC use, because of this. These motors will cutout when their limits are approached, and will just stop. This is usually good, as you know you are pushing the motor too hard, and need to re-gear.

--During the official season, we had 7 550-sized motors on our robot (there are up to 8 legal 550-sized motors). We never burned out a 550 motor during the season.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

The rs-550's we were having issues with we're run through a 64:1 reduction gearbox in our conveyor system. There was little compression on the balls moving through the system. To be honest, the only two pieces of electrical equipment we haven't had problems with are the CIM's and the victors (that includes burning up 3 cRio's and 4 PDB's). We have consistently had electrical problems ever since we left the old ifi system. Maybe we've just had a run of bad luck. Regardless of those issues, we more than likely will be finding a use for those little rs-550's in the up coming season as well

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

the omfgbb gearboxes are crap. the planet gears are slightly too big and grind on the ring gear. the 64:1's have way too much resistance in them because of this. a guy i know was losing about 250w in his boxes with no load on them.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

Did he break them in first? If you grease them, run them unloaded for a while, degrease them (the metal shavings suspended in the grease are what you are really trying to get rid of, but it's not worth the hassle), regrease them, and reassemble them and they should run a lot more efficiently.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

The BB planetary gear boxes are designed to come in at a price we can afford. Precision planetary gear boxes in the size to match the 5oo series motors are very expensive. Our team has not been able to find anything that we could afford that is better than the Banes Bot solution. So we love them and hate them.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

Since we are talking about planetaries that mate to 550s, does anyone have a list of suppliers that provide high quality planetaries that can mate to the 300/500/700 series motors. We need a list, for other reasons.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

Our intake conveyor probably had more compression than yours (as it was way too much compression) with a ratio of 14.4:1 and a 1.75" pitch diameter pulley. No issues all season with the 550's on that. As suggested by others it was friction from another source.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

I've seen them, but they aren't terribly common as it's odd to spend $400 on a gearbox for a $2 motor. If you need a gearbox of that quality, you should probably also use a different motor.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

A cordless drill. Most cordless drill motors are over 300W (anyone remember the drill motor we used to get in the KOP? 450W IIRC) so the transmissions are designed to take a serious beating (as long as it's not a Harbor Freight or similar brand). Nearly all have 2 or more speeds and the nicer ones have anti-backdrive (although that's usually pretty easy to disable if necessary).
Go to a pawn shop or used tool dealer and you can find them cheap. Many use motors that are larger than 700 series. Look through the vents to match the motor size to what you want to use or just just the motor that comes with the drill if it's an off season project.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

Modification to the US Digital Encoder wheel for a lower CPR count (< 100), for example 16. Even though the cRIO can handle higher frequencies, the CPR count for attempting to control a CIMSim at 2000 rpm can possibly cause cRIO issues (throughput) that can be simply avoided by having a lower CPR count.

The US Digital Encoder with a lower CPR count could then be simply added to the AndyMark CIMSim (match made in heaven?).

In the pits I saw some applications use simple bolts with one ppr gear tooth sensor to measure rpm for speed control on their shooters.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

On behalf of the Dean's List students thank you all for all your responses. With it we were able to give the KOP suppliers a better idea of what FIRST teams would like in the kits as a whole and how it can be improved. The suppliers were most appreciated of the feedback.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

Yes, I thoroughly agree with John. The ten of us might have had some of our own personal opinions, but really our goal was to get input from the FRC community, and everyone here has been extremely helpful with that. Thank you.

Even though this year's supplier summit is over, feel free to continue posting in this thread (just try and keep it as much KOP-specific as possible; discussion about part specifications, usage, etc. is great, but perhaps a bit more than what we originally intended to ask about). We actually suggested that the suppliers have someone who keeps track of Chief Delphi and/or other FIRST forums so as to better understand the needs and wants of the FRC community. And of course, next year there will be another supplier summit with ten more Dean's List Winners who will have the same responsibilities, and I'm sure they would love to have this thread grow so they and FIRST have it as a resource.

So, thank you again, and keep up the great discussion!

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

It would be most helpful if you can post the documentation which you presented to the suppliers. Not that I don't trust the 10 of you, its just that I would like to see the documented suggestions that were presented so that I can compare it to any changes that are made in the kit next season. This helps us determine how the feedback from the community is actually delivered and received.

Thanks,
Akash rastogi

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

Yes, that does make sense. Unfortunately we can't be of too much help right this second, since the format was that of a Q&A panel rather than a formal presentation, so we don't have an official document to post. However, we did go through this thread the night before and write notes so we could cover the majority of the suggestions here in some fashion during the Q&A. If you would like, we can go back through those notes and supplement with our memories so you have some idea of what went on during the panel.

Also I'm under the impression - but I may be mistaken - that there was someone from FIRST acting as a secretary, so we could ask if they have official records (and if they would allow us to see them and relay some portion of them to the community).

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

Yes, any documentation you have of suggestions that were made should be posted publicly, if you have it. For the future, I suggest that the Dean's List students be required to have documentation ready, aside from general notes, if they plan to share suggestions made by the FIRST community at large and on Chief Delphi to the KoP suppliers. It would be a way to make sure all suggestions are at least documented and presented for consideration. As we all know, memory is not always the greatest.

Re: What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?
 

I would like to see some alternative battery options available, even if they aren't in the KoP itself. National Battery and Sigma both make equivalent 12V lead acid batteries, for about $35. MK and Genesis are at least $55. This helps when you need ~6 batteries per competition as we did.