Throwing Matches at the Olympics
 

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/02/sp...pagewanted=all


So what do you all think about this? Relevance to FRC?

I felt that many people who discussed it while I was listening to BBC radio had a great point about how the organizers of the event are at fault due to the formatting of the games, which gives teams incentive to purposely lose matches to gain an advantage and ultimately earn a gold medal (kinda like how the GDC had their ranking system in 2010?). They felt the players were victims of several systems in play, including, for example, China's strong control of their athletes and desire to pursue gold medals. Others, on the other hand, said that this is against the spirit of competition and the Olympics (sound familiar?). They also said it would be unfiar to the spectators/sponsors/patrons to throw a match.

Thought it was a pretty interesting thing to think about, even when related to FRC. Things like 2010 6v0 matches came to mind. While not exactly the same as the Olympics scenario since 6v0 aren't really thrown matches, and you don't throw matches in FRC to play weaker teams in the next round, I felt that you could still draw some connections.

What are your thoughts? (in general or related to FRC)

Re: Throwing Matches at the Olympics
 

It is a similar story, manipulating the standings to give you better position.

The big difference is that the players we warned not to do this and that there would be retributions for their actions.

Having two teams both trying to loose must have been quite something to see.

Re: Throwing Matches at the Olympics
 

In FRC, situations like 6v0 are a concrete strategy to gain an advantage in the standings, seed higher, and ultimately play weaker teams in eliminations. It is the same as the Badminton situation in my eyes. The difference is that it is considered "creative strategy" in FRC and considered "illegal" in the Olympics.

IMO the Olympic games should be bracketed to encourage every team to win to gain an advantage. If losing makes it ultimately easier to get a gold then there is a design flaw in the bracketing structure, but I don't think teams should be penalized for it because it is a sound strategy, if un-sportsman-like.

Re: Throwing Matches at the Olympics
 

I think the main difference is that the players knowingly broke an official rule. I think if the rule had not been there it would be a different story and considered just simply good strategy. However the rule was there and they broke it by not giving it their all to win.

Re: Throwing Matches at the Olympics
 

I see the 6v0 strategy as been very different. When it was done in FIRST, it was with the intention of scoring the most points for your team, thus increasing your standings. In the Olympics, it was with the intention of scoring the least number of points for your team in order to have an easier schedule. In FIRST, it was a legal strategy for playing the game. In the Olympics, it is not a legal strategy.

That said, both are unfortunate for the spectators. In both cases, you aren't showing a great match highlighting the competition between two teams. In the case of the Olympics, they only have the option of punishing those who performed these acts, and rightfully so. In the case of FIRST, the GDC is able to rework the rules through weekly updates in order to push play back towards what was intended.

Re: Throwing Matches at the Olympics
 

An important detail: In competitive badminton, throwing matches is explicitly against the rules. (http://t.co/fV2CrsBo - section 4.5)

The "6v0" describes a variety of scenarios in 2010 that rarely included any collaboration between the alliances. After week 1, it never resulted in seeding higher than your opponents, but it would allow you to nearly match their seeding points instead of giving them the points to leapfrog you. I'd be happy to discuss the nuances of 2010 seeding strategy if anyone wants, but I think that's a bit off topic for this thread.

Re: Throwing Matches at the Olympics
 

I understand there are differences between the two situations, and that in the badminton situation throwing a match was explicitly against the rules: I said it was considered "illegal".

In both cases it was beneficial for teams to intentionally lose a match, in this way the two situations are the same. I do not like that situation in any competition.

Re: Throwing Matches at the Olympics
 

Let's see .. what would the cheers be coming from the paying fans:

hit 'em high
hit 'em low
come on teams
let's throw throw throw
- the matches -

It's on the coaches.

Jane

Re: Throwing Matches at the Olympics
 

Regardless of what the technicalities are in the rules or rankings, I don't think that there should be a situation, in FRC or the Olympics, where losing actually gives you a better chance of winning in the end. To me, that defeats the purpose of sport and competition (not because winning is essential, but simply because of the idea of losing on purpose), especially in leagues like FRC or the Olympics, where the winners should win fair and square.

Take the NBA playoffs for instance, the way it works is that the top 8 teams from each conference move onto the playoffs; the 1st place team plays the 8th place team in the first round, the 2nd plays the 7th, and so on. At least from the point of view of statistics, the better your record, the higher your chance of winning. It is a simple system in which winning is always advantageous, and "throwing a game" always works against you in the end.

I think that ranking systems in games like Breakaway are too complicated, so complicated in fact that finding loopholes in them are easy. I think that simple is the way to go in terms of rankings.

Re: Throwing Matches at the Olympics
 

It appears the main reason for the strategy was to avoid playing Chinese teams, both to avoid playing each other and reducing the chances of a Chinese gold, or just because they are so good. I suspect the strategy came down from someone higher than the players, like a coach or director. I mostly blame whoever made the decisions to employ these strategies (players, coaches, or others), with some placed on the organizers for the tournament format. Offseason competitions is where I see the parallel to FRC, where the rule is often in place that you cannot pick inside the top 8, and I think this is a point against using that rule at those competitions.

Re: Throwing Matches at the Olympics
 

How does "throwing the game" compare to FTC strategies involving "scoring for your opponent" to increase your ranking points? Although the GDC effectively made it illegal last year, it was a big part of my team's strategy in Hot Shot. A key difference from the Olympic mess is that you still need to win the match in order to get the Qualifying Points. Still, scoring for the opponent really confused some parents and some opposing teams who thought it was unsportsmanlike. I thought it added a lot of strategy to the game and made it more interesting.

Re: Throwing Matches at the Olympics
 

I'll admit, the first time I saw that story, I thought "well that's just like sandbagging in FRC!" Not a good thing.

Re: Throwing Matches at the Olympics
 

Oooo, I want a black card!

This is somewhat different than a 6v0 match. In 6v0 you are looking to gain qualifying points and overall increase your ranking. Playing to lose to get an "easier" opponent specifically goes against their rules.

In soccer there have been several wacky rule sets that allowed shenanigans like this to go on. In one Caribbean match years ago, the tournament rules somehow specified that if a particular team couldn't win, they'd be better off losing by more than 2 goals. Their opponent stood to gain if they won by fewer than 2 goals. For the last minutes of the match, both teams ended up trying to score in their own nets! FIFA (the international soccer body) has taken steps to curb such abuses - for instance, better balancing of groups for round-robin play and having the last matches in the group played at the same time so one result isn't known before the other game starts.

Back to FRC, I think this year's ranking scheme made it advantageous for your team to win, as compared to the 6v0 scenario. (OK, discount the coopertition bridge, because that skews things.) Maybe FRC also wanted to try to eliminate potential abuses of the system.

Re: Throwing Matches at the Olympics
 

After reading the article, and also having competed on Curie in 2010 and witnessing the 6v0 infamous Match 100 (iirc?), I think the difference is that certainly almost nobody knew that the strategy existed, let alone would work. The Olympians, however, are fully aware that intentionally throwing the match would result in their playing of a weaker team. As well, stated earlier is compliance with Section 4.5 of their rules explicitly prevents such action.

Re: Throwing Matches at the Olympics
 

But the big difference is that in the sport world. You are expected to win and the point of the games are to win.

In FRC that year, it didn't matter about the win, it mattered about the points more then W-L-T.

Re: Throwing Matches at the Olympics
 

In the Olympics its more about G-S-B, not W-L-T. While not the same as FRC points, the end effect is pretty similar.

Re: Throwing Matches at the Olympics
 

Writing in the Toronto Star, Cathal Kelly makes an interesting argument: that the moral imperatives present in amateur sport (like the Olympics) are different from those in professional sport.
It's basically realpolitik in sports.

Does Kelly's thesis hold true for FRC, or are the backers of FRC teams genuinely interested in the short game, even at the expense of the long one?

Re: Throwing Matches at the Olympics
 

If sponsors are only interested in blue banners and trophies, then they don't get it.

As a point of reference: At no point in 1114's outstanding Chairman's winning video do they show blue banners or competition-based trophies. They chose to highlight their Woodie Flowers winners, their Dean's List winners, their scholarship recipients, the relationships wrought and opportunities afforded through being a Simbot, big or little.

Re: Throwing Matches at the Olympics
 

That's true, but there seems to be somewhat of a correlation between teams who rock the blue banners/trophies and sponsors.

However, there is the question of which came first...

- Sunny G.

Re: Throwing Matches at the Olympics
 

IMO, this is a failure of the rules commitee. Any time you have to add a rule: "Don't do this because it is not in the spirit of the game.", you have failed at establishing a set of rules that prioritizes your goals. It is extremely difficult to establish a set of rules that do have these sort of statements in them. The Olympics is chalked full of them*. Many people fail at attempting difficult things though, but to put the blame on someone else for you failure is not gracious or professional.

This particular set of rules is a difficult one though. If your goal was to win a medal, and you knew that loosing a particular match would increase the odds of you winning a medal, then it would be very difficult to give it everything you have. Just knowing, in the back of your mind that loosing that match increases the odds of you winning a medal, would likely cause you to come up short at that impossible save, or that painful dive... As all amazing athletes give 110% when doing their best (math may not their be strong suite), is giving 105% or 100% or 99% any different than say 65%?

So, if giving 80% will get you kicked out of the tournament, what about 99%? Who is to judge whether or not you are playing up to your potential?

In distance cycling or running, would you ban the fastest person for holding back and drafting to make a final kick at the end for the win? That is considered strategy in those sports. Often the winning runner will let someone else lead 9km of a 10K, just to pass them in the last 1km. Thanks buddy for the draft!

Should swimmers give 110% during their qualifying heats only to exhaust themselves for other medal races? Again, we applaud the "smart play" of a swimmer conserving energy during a qualifier in order to improve their odds at a win in the medal race. Did they cheat the audience out of winning that heat by another 2 meters or 0.75 seconds?

My wreslting coach often would concede a #4 seed for us to get a #6 seed at tournaments (at wrestling tournaments, the coaches often seed the wrestlers before the event similar to NCAA basetball brackets). He did this because he believed in us that we were the #2 wrestler in that class. He would come away from the seed meetings and tell us: "I could have fought for you to get a #4 seed because you don't have as many wins as the #2 or #3 guys. If you were #4 you would have lost in the semis former state champion at the #1. Instead, I got you a #6, but you are going to make it to the finals. It isn't the easy road, but I know you can do it."

I personally feel the rules commitee owes these atheletes an apology for having conflicting constraints.

While I do agree that you should always try your "best", I have a great deal of empathy for those involved in this situation as your best is a combination of "your" and "best".

*Technically anti-doping rules would fall in this category. The reason I am OK with these are they are pretty clearly delineated what is allowed, and what isn't, and the Olympics tests for these substances. How do you test for a 99% effort?

**Personally, I probably would have tried my best in the match, and thus not made it on the podium, which would have made me upset if I truly believed I could have earned a silver or bronze had things gone differently. I would hold no ill will towards a team trying to advance, but would write a scathing commitee to the rules commitee in hopes of a future change. If change followed the next year, I would be proud of my actions. If no change occurred, I would question the values of the commitee.

Re: Throwing Matches at the Olympics
 

I think this slightly oversimplifies a standard regular season/playoffs season for big sports like NBA, MLB, NHL etc.

From a pure numbers point of view, yeah it would make sense that the team who won the most games in the regular season statistically has the best chance of winning in the playoffs. However, the games are played by humans and not computers.

Take for example a star player missing half of the regular NBA season with an ankle issue. The team very well may lose significantly more games than they would have won with that player in the lineup. The team ends up near the #4 seed as they approach the playoffs and their star player rejoins the lineup.

Simultaneously, the team in the #5 seed has a tough schedule coming up to finish the regular season, and some of their starters are in need of some rest before the playoffs. Maybe they go out with their B+ lineup instead of their A lineup. They give their starters a few more minutes rest than they normally would.

The whole time they know the highest they can seed is #5, while the lowest they can seed is #7. Coincidentally, the #2 seed (which is who the #7 would play in the 1st round) has lost one of their key support players. Oh yeah, and the current #5 seed swept the season series against the #2.

For the #5 seed, it may make more sense to not really give 100% effort and win those last few regular season games. If they end up the #7, they realistically may have a better shot than they would if they were the #5 and had to face a reinvigorated #4 in the 1st round.

Just some food for thought.

-Brando

Re: Throwing Matches at the Olympics
 

I have a hard time saying that throwing a match to gain better seating is a negative. In fact, we see athlete's in MANY other sports not give their all in every match all the time.

If the ultimate goal in the Olympics is to win Gold, then you would expect to see this behavior.

Here are a couple examples. How often do we see swimmers and sprinters hold off on their best performance during prelims? They do just enough to get into the Semi's and conserve there energies for when they need them. It's common, almost expected.
So, where do you draw the line?

Re: Throwing Matches at the Olympics
 

There's a difference between swimming to conserve energy and still qualify for the finals and throwing a match.

Throwing a match is not the intent of the game. The teams were using that option in their qualifying strategy and they were warned to play the game as it was intended. They ignored the warnings and they were thrown out.

Swimming conservatively and advancing to the next race is not the same thing.

A lot hinges on that little word, intent.

Jane

Re: Throwing Matches at the Olympics
 

There is a lot of power in that little word "intent". How does one judge intent? In Freakanomics, they make an interesting discussion about this in the world of Sumo wrestling. Here is a neat little 2 minute video clip. Notice in the video, he states "almost without a doubt". Note that even with murder, "a reasonable doubt" would stop a conviction.

Make no mistake, there are often "incentives" associated with winning medals, even in the U.S.A.
In general these payouts are much less than many executive bonuses which is a very interesting thought (with regards to incentive systems possibly corrupting values), but are quite significant sums of money to an athlete likely to have a shelf life of 4-12 years.

*I am not promoting cheating, or the throwing of matches, I am just showing that without good constraints, it is not suprising that even the most pure get corrupted.

Re: Throwing Matches at the Olympics
 

Absolutely. Fighting corruption is nothing new to these games, sadly. What would be very sad would be for corruption to gain the upper hand and decimate them. It's already been said that these problems that have been brought to light will be addressed. It's also good for everyone involved to take a look at what they are creating, including those who implement incentive systems that possibly corrupt values.

Jane

Re: Throwing Matches at the Olympics
 

In your example of a single year's NBA playoffs, you are right to say that there's an incentive to be the top seed or generally a higher seed. However, when a team wants to win NBA Championships, they cannot think only about the short term. A team that's good enough to be the 7th or 8th seed in the playoffs, but will likely be bounced in the first round, is much better off throwing their games, not making the playoffs, and getting a high draft pick.

It simply is not easy to make a set of rules that both encourages improvement from the worst teams (for the sake of parity) and doesn't incentivise being bad.

Re: Throwing Matches at the Olympics
 

The only ruleset I can think of that minimizes the incentive of intentional losses is that of elimination tournaments (be them single- or double-elimination or what have you), with seeding determined by past performances. I will explain in terms of double-elimination.

Sure, you may throw a game to drop to the losers bracket but there is no guarantee that it will be significantly easier. The person you "lost" to might drop down to loser's the next round, and even if they don't, you'll have to face them (or someone "better" by virtue of beating them) in the grand finals.

I watch a lot of fighting-game tournaments, and they all run double-elimination. They don't have a governing body or system for consistent seeding (except for the biggest tournament of the year, EVO) and matches are never "thrown" except for RARE circumstances, usually involving external incentives as mentioned before. And that's a whole other can of worms.

EDIT: I do actually have another example.

In Magic: the Gathering (a trading card game) Pro level events, competitors are cut to the Top 8 for eliminations after a number of Swiss rounds. However, 1 does not play 8 and so on, the top 8 are randomly matched up.

This would not be appropriate for FIRST or the Olympics. The M:tG events have on the order of hundreds of participants, so the top 8 can be seen as very very closely matched to each other as the top 3-5%, whereas even a division at championships only has 100 teams max so far, pitting the top 25% in eliminations.

HOWEVER, it is worth noting that intentional draws and forfeits are completely legal in the ruleset of Magic. This situation is mainly meant to reference the randomization of elimination seeds for tournaments with a small percentage of participants in eliminations and how the number of participants both in seeding and elimination should be taken into account when designing a rule system.

Re: Throwing Matches at the Olympics
 

This is something that gets discussed every year across the Big 4 leagues, but usually with the lowest teams (and most often in the NFL, where there is no lottery and draft picks can have immediate impact). It's not usually a problem, because the worst teams probably wouldn't win their last games if they tried, or it gets passed off as resting their better players.

There is a saying about professional sports playoffs--especially the NHL--"Just get in." Exhibit A: 2011-12 Los Angeles Kings. They made the playoffs as the 8th seed in the West on the last day of the season, then won the Stanley Cup.

Two more notes to remember: Playoffs mean more games, and therefore more revenue and more paychecks for the players, so they wouldn't want to give that up. Also, being first out vs. last in the playoffs (and then losing 1st round) moves you up in the draft from 17-24th pick (depending on the tiebreaker used to determine order among similarly eliminated teams) to 16th (and a <1% chance at winning the lottery).

*Note: using NBA/NHL league size and playoff structure
**Also: Only the NBA lottery winner takes the 1st pick automatically. The NHL winner can only advance 3 positions (so the bottom 4 can possibly pick 1st). The NFL and MLB do not hold lotteries.

TL;DR version: DON'T SKIP THE PLAYOFFS. You're not better off to give up the last week.

Sorry, I had to clarify the draft process relating to finishing position in the Big 4 leagues.

Re: Throwing Matches at the Olympics
 

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/olympic...-question.html

Here's another relevant article, based on what happened in last night's basketball game against Nigeria.

Plenty of folks in FRC used to claim teams were demolishing others by purposely getting high scores. Thought it would be fun to hear commentary about this one as well.

Notable parts :

Krzyzewski nodded toward Nigeria coach Ayodele Bakare and decided to speak for him too. "Coach would think it humiliating if we didn't play hard."

"On the one side, it's terrible to get whupped like that," Nigeria's Koko Archibong said. "But on the other side, it was something impressive to be a part of – impressive to witness in person."



What if you were pretty much demolished by a team in any given match? Would you be upset or would you find it inspirational? Do you think the losing team's reaction would be based more on the conduct of the winning team after the match is over? How would you react if you had to face off against a Dream Team?

Great discussion so far, keep it coming.

.

Re: Throwing Matches at the Olympics
 

I don't have any problem with a team scoring as much as possible while already leading, regardless of sport. Pertaining to basketball, I have two points:

1. You never know when a lead is safe
2. What else are you supposed to do, miss shots on purpose?

It's a competition. The goal is to do as well as you can.

I'm not sure about basketball, but for other Olympic sports at least, the first tiebreaker to determine group standings is point differential, so "running up the score" can actually help you.

Re: Throwing Matches at the Olympics
 

In addition, as long as you can avoid complacency, impressive wins can get into your future opponents' heads.

Question: Were there any matches where the "Don't score too much" rule in Lunacy actually affected the outcome by not having supercells available? I remember the general consensus being "Take them away if you want, we don't need them."

Re: Throwing Matches at the Olympics
 

This happens all the time at FIRST events. It's really the luck of the draw when it comes to seeding matches. At IRI we triple balanced and still lost by 50 points! Nobody on our alliance was the least bit upset about it.

You just won't last long at FIRST if you get upset by that kind of thing.

Re: Throwing Matches at the Olympics
 

Usually I would agree with this, but this lead was definitely very safe. If team USA didn't score a single point in the second half, they still would have won by 6 points.

As far as running it up goes, most of the starters were pulled out, and it is important to remember that the reserve players are still representing our country and want to prove that they deserve to do so. Unfortunately for the other national teams, our reserve players are also very, very good.

Re: Throwing Matches at the Olympics
 

But if you ease up on defense too, you start giving the opponents confidence, and that can make them start playing better overall. Of course what I said was a stretch for that game, but also remember that hindsight is 20/20. It could have happened.

Re: Throwing Matches at the Olympics
 

In FTC last year, there were a lot of matches where our drivers only picked up one basket, or they only lifted it high enough to win comfortably, not to blow out the other team. Should we have gone for two or three baskets at maximum height every time? There is the danger of the robot freezing due to a Samantha glitch or something bad happening if you try for two or three baskets and don't make it, versus just lifting one higher than anyone else earlier in the match, but generally we didn't think it was GP to blow out a weak team. Is deliberately underscoring an insult to our opponents?

The flip side hurt us - when we needed three baskets at maximum height, we hadn't practiced it enough and sometimes had trouble.

Re: Throwing Matches at the Olympics
 

(emphasis mine)

Gracious Professionalism has zero to do with the game on the field as long as it is played in good faith by the rules in my opinion.

Practice vs. risk-of-damage is a discussion in itself. :)

Re: Throwing Matches at the Olympics
 

At our regional, there were 2-3 dominate teams. In at least 1 match one of the dominate teams instructed it team alliance not to co-op balance to give the other alliance the points. Was this good straegy or poor play ?

Re: Throwing Matches at the Olympics
 

I'm afraid I don't quite understand the strategy here? Was this to mean the dominate team did not want to balance so as to not give another team the co-op points, or was it that the dominant team was throwing the match? If the case is the former, then I do not see an issue with a team doing this because that is not playing without heart, rather, it is playing with the big picture weaved into your strategy.

Re: Throwing Matches at the Olympics
 

If I understand correctly, the instruction was given by the dominant team not to co-op so as not to give their opponents any co-op points. This was not a throwing the match situation.

As for whether it's good strategy or poor play, it's both. In terms of ranking, it's good strategy (unless your opponents beat you) as you get 2 RP, they get none. It's also poor strategy if other highly-ranked teams do co-op and get 4 RP. Your opponents get 0 instead of 2. Seems to be a reasonable strategy, but not one I'd intentionally practice personally.