Coopertition in the Olympics
 

Earlier this week I saw a stunning example that I would say closely matches FIRST's definition of Coopertition. Any guesses which event I was watching?

Re: Coopertition in the Olympics
 

Any form of Long distance bike racing.
I was actually thinking about FIRST as I watched this past weekend.

You need to draft off of each other to keep pace.
You must cooperate with those around you, to be in a position to win.

I used to do 60 mile races and the amount of energy you save when you are drafting is simply amazing.

Re: Coopertition in the Olympics
 

Badminton? :yikes:

Re: Coopertition in the Olympics
 

Just a shame IMHO. That's disrespect to the audience and other opponents.

Re: Coopertition in the Olympics
 

Is it sailing?

Re: Coopertition in the Olympics
 

I believe it was indoor volleyball, where someone admitted to touching the ball and gave up the point.

Or I could have completely made that up... I don't remember

Re: Coopertition in the Olympics
 

I would consider this more GP that Coopertition. Though a great example non-the less.

From the FIRST Website:
"Coopertition®

Coopertition® produces innovation. At FIRST, Coopertition is displaying unqualified kindness and respect in the face of fierce competition. Coopertition is founded on the concept and a philosophy that teams can and should help and cooperate with each other even as they compete.

Coopertition involves learning from teammates. It is teaching teammates. It is learning from Mentors. And it is managing and being managed. Coopertition means competing always, but assisting and enabling others when you can."

Keep the guesses and examples coming in.

OZ_341 is on the right track for the event I was thinking of. I was watching Women's Road Cycling where 3 women from different countires made a break from the pack (Peleton). There were actually 4, but one woman fell off the pace and returned to the Peleton. The 3 women took turns taking the lead for roughly 1 minute, while the other 2 drafted. The frequency of the changing was quite impressive to watch. While working together, I am sure they all had to weigh, "How much should I carry the other 2, When should I make my break?, If we stop cooperating too soon, we could get overtaken by the pack..." this is a lot to think about, but these three took it in stride. It was also clear that one of the riders was not taking as large a turn up front. This means, that the other two are carrying her, but without her, they would have an even heavier burden. This reminds me a lot of the usual alliance structure in FRC. You have 2 top tier scorers that are often considered to be "carrying" their 3rd partner. Just like FRC, that third though is often essential as the load they carry is often the difference between making it into the mdeals versus being run over by the pack.

Re: Coopertition in the Olympics
 

Just thought I would also mention that this technique was not invented by humans. Geese do this everyday! :)

Re: Coopertition in the Olympics
 

When geese fly, one side of the vee is always longer than the other side. Does anybody know why?

Re: Coopertition in the Olympics
 

There's always an even number of geese? ;) Okay, I got nothing.


Only in a vague sort of connection (sorry, it really isn't worth a separate thread), I was watching the indoor mens volleyball when there was a pause, and the judges were huddled with this poor woman at a side table, all busily staring at a laptop she had. I could see all the signs -- the initial panic, the hurried discussions, the final relief when the players could continue play.... Yes, even in the Olympics, the Field crashed, and they had to reboot the volleyball game. The only thing missing was the players lining up to do the Cotton Joe song.

Re: Coopertition in the Olympics
 

In the flying V the one side is longer becuase the goose in the back is drafting the others. Doing this is rest for the bird and the one in the back will eventually rotate with the one in the lead. Has no one ever seen mighty ducks lol? This is a very good example of coopertition .

Re: Coopertition in the Olympics
 

I'm going to guess it's somehow due to aerodynamic efficiencies caused by crosswinds. Wind blowing in from the side could have an effect in the direction the draft from the goose in front of you takes (as opposed to straight back), or it could make it easier/harder to get blown to the side out of formation.

Re: Coopertition in the Olympics
 

Taking a gander on the internet, this may fly closer to the truth than I originally geessed, er, guessed. Get another feather for my cap!

ETA: You guys are over-thinking it. And not reading the question properly.

And to really goose this hijack -- the geese in my neighborhood even do the line flying from one end of a field to another. But do they ever argue about going somewhere! For at least ten minutes they honk back and forth, debating. Yes, lets go over there! No, grass is just fine here! You'd think they had nothing better to do than argue!

Next time I'll do a field survey and see if there is an odd or even number of geese.

Re: Coopertition in the Olympics
 

Only on CD can a thread about Coopertition get Goose-jacked...:p

I would consider Geese flying more of a cooperation than coopertition though (though a competitive food plot could exist). Now if only this thread could turn into a Stag Hunt ( Nash Equilibrium)...

Re: Coopertition in the Olympics
 

More geese that side?

Re: Coopertition in the Olympics
 

I felt like the following is appropriate here.



- Sunny G.

Re: Coopertition in the Olympics
 

[pointless gripe about a children's movie]The "Flying V" would be offsides almost every time.[/pointless gripe about a children's movie]

Re: Coopertition in the Olympics
 

Not sure. Maybe geese are smart, but not THAT smart? Or...just don't care for aesthetics.

Re: Coopertition in the Olympics
 

50% of the time there will be an even number of geese, forcing one side to be longer. Everyone has already noted that.
When there are an odd number of geese lining up randomly, they will be longer on one side 2/3's of the time, given the overly simplified three options:

1) longer on the left
2) longer on the right
3) evenly matched

So, in combined odd/even cases the best it can ever be is 17% of the time the two sides of the V will be balanced.

Now take it a bit further...
The probability of balanced V legs goes way, way down once you start considering the permutations of 1/2/3/4/etc. birds on each side, since for any n geese there will be n-1 unbalanced flight patterns, but only 1 balanced flight pattern.
For example, if you consider 9 birds, there are 8 possibilities of an uneven distribution of geese along the legs, and only 1 that produces balanced legs of the V, so given a random distribution, that's 89% of the 9-bird gaggles that will be uneven. The odds, of course, decrease even more as you add more birds (19 birds has a 95% chance of being an unbalanced V), since in only one permutation do they come out balanced. Odds grow better with fewer birds, but the very best you can get is 1/3 of the 3 bird case will have even V legs.
Taking the 9-bird case as an arbitrary median number of birds, add in the 50% of the time when there's going to be an even number of birds, that cannot be balanced, and that gives us ~94% of the time the V legs will not be even.

I suspect ultimately that it's just because geese cannot count, geese have no foolish desire for geometrical consistency, and they all like to fly next to the popular one...

However, maybe it's because competition badminton shuttlecocks are only made from the left wing feathers of geese, and the geese thereafter list to one side.

Re: Coopertition in the Olympics
 

Archery?

Re: Coopertition in the Olympics
 

Ooo, perhaps the predominance of right-handed archers has something to do with it.

Re: Coopertition in the Olympics
 

I didn't read closely enough. :)

Jane

Re: Coopertition in the Olympics
 

Oops, sorry. It was late.

Re: Coopertition in the Olympics
 

Here's another observation experiment for you the next time you are at a beach...

Pelicans (of the "Brown Pelican" variety on the USA OBX) I have observed fly in groups of 2^N (where max N I've witnessed is 5) quite often, as in a statistically significant often. Count pelicans the next time you see some flying by. As 2^N is even, this makes one leg of the V they often fly in longer, too. :)

Re: Coopertition in the Olympics
 

[/birdtalk]

Re: Coopertition in the Olympics
 

That's what I was thinking too! I haven't watched any this year but I distinctly remember Athens 2004 when in the final race the two leaders who were well out in front kept switching positions for the reason you listed.

Re: Coopertition in the Olympics
 

Agreed! Sorry for the goose tangent. :)

Re: Coopertition in the Olympics
 

Bingo! Now that's an answer that makes sense to me!
Why does it not surprise me that Mark (of all CDers) has a valid statistical answer for this? :rolleyes: