PNTA Team 23 control system
 

http://imgur.com/a/xJJFt#0

And thus the case is complete. It's going to be mounted on a wheelchair robot till FIRST season swings around.

What do you guys think?

Re: PNTA Team 23 control system
 

Wow, that's... beautiful. Sleek and beautiful. I am impressed.

Re: PNTA Team 23 control system
 

Thanks. It took quite a bit of time over the summer, but we think it'll pay off come build season.

I used the driver's station case offered by AndyMark (http://www.andymark.com/Driver-Stati...p/am-2111.htm). The case had the perfect dimensions, small enough to be reasonable, while big enough to fit everything plus the eight victors.

Re: PNTA Team 23 control system
 

That is pretty nice looking. Any problems with the Victors heating up inside the case?

Also are you just planning to use it for testing or are you going to build one to mount to the actual robot?

Re: PNTA Team 23 control system
 

No problems with heat at all. We're planning on taking thermal readings to give a value to the statement.

Granted the game allows, we're hoping to mount this case within our robot.

Re: PNTA Team 23 control system
 

Dom,
I hate to rain on anyone's parade but the indicators and labels on all electronics need to be visible from the outside of the robot. This is true of the Crio, PD, sidecar(s) and speed controllers.
[R41]The PD Board and all circuit breakers must be easily visible for Inspection.
[R56]The DAP-1522 wireless bridge must be mounted on the Robot such that the diagnostic lights are visible to Arena
personnel.
[R57]Robots shall use the diagnostic Robot Signal Light (RSL) provided in the KOP. It must be mounted on the Robot such that it is easily visible while standing three feet in front of the Robot.
During inspection, wiring must also be visible to the inspector.
And I am assuming this is a prototype with the real box to be constructed after kickoff.

Re: PNTA Team 23 control system
 

Al - We thought of this while designing the case. If you look in a few of the pictures, you might be able to see two anderson powerpoles coming out of the top of the case - this is intended to link the RSL to the sidecar. You might also notice that in the head on view of the case, there is an odd "window" cut out of the lid just above the handle of the case. The dlink is mounted directly behind this hole, and while running, the lights are highly visible. As for the ease of access to wiring during inspection, we'll have to account for this during the design of the robot. Given the fact that anything might go wrong with any component of the control system, making the internals readily accessible is probably a good idea anyway. Thanks for your input, I appreciate it.

Dom

Re: PNTA Team 23 control system
 

You guys are totally ahead of the curve for this years water game! :D Seriously, this is pretty sweet. Removable control systems allow for very fast prototyping & rebuilding without worrying about whether shavings get into the electronics.

If, for some reason, the wireless router isn't "visible enough" for an inspector, you could perhaps make the window larger, then mount the bridge onto the window. If the inspector doesn't like it (TBH I think it will be difficult to see on the field due to glare) then you could simply flip the window over and remount the bridge. Same location/packaging, but with the bridge on the outside.

Re: PNTA Team 23 control system
 

Dom,
Glad to help, please ask if you have any questions. When I refer to the wiring, inspectors need to check not only the wiring going out to the motors, they also need to check everything leaving the PD. If your design allows for the lid to be easily opened on the field while inside the robot, you might pass inspection. However, I would be hard pressed to say you meet all the specifications for visible indicators. The risk teams will run into is this. If field personnel can help with a simple problem on the field they will go out of their way to insure you play. If you make it difficult to do that, you will possibly be disabled for that match. On another note, I believe the spec for Victors is 2" clear above the fans. You can of course easily make a cutout in the case above the Vic and add screen to protect them. There are a variety of filter materials that can be velcroed in place over the screen. A simple furnace filter could provide the air flow while keeping metallic debris from entering the box.

Re: PNTA Team 23 control system
 

With the added window, the wireless bridge lights seem to be as visible to service personnel as most other robots.

Does inspection need to be "on field" configuration?
Wouldn't it be perfectly acceptable for them to open up the box and show inspectors what's inside? I don't believe the rules say "must be visible for inspection without any opening of service panels."

If that isn't okay, then any team with opaque side panels which they remove for inspection is also illegal?

This is a very cool solution. Kudos to team 23 for the development of such a neat item. I hope it isn't ruled illegal due to Deus Ex Inspection.

-John

Re: PNTA Team 23 control system
 

As the distinguished folks from team 23 probably know, Victors have been used in Battlebots for years under much much much worse circumstances than FRC.

In some cases they get so hot that the FETs desolder themselves from the PCB, and they keep running right up until the FETs fall off.

The heat inside that little box won't make the Victor's sweat one bit.

-John

Re: PNTA Team 23 control system
 

On the field, problems that are trivial to diagnose because of all the visible status lights become impossible when they are hidden.
There is no status light that is unimportant.

I urge any competition control system layout to leave ALL status lights fully visible to the field crew AND to the team members.

A transparent top would be nice.

Re: PNTA Team 23 control system
 

I have to agree with Mark. Even if it does pass inspection, you'd be at a disadvantage if an FTA can't see your lights while you are on the field. Reducing the time it takes them to diagnose an issue increases the amount of time you get to play.

Re: PNTA Team 23 control system
 

John,
Inspectors are responsible for holding teams to the rules and those are listed in the inspection checklist. What takes place on the field for FTAs, CSAs and inspectors when called, is to keep matches moving and help everyone play. If a problem cannot be determined on the field, it may mean a robot doesn't play. I don't want that and neither does anyone else. Often the indicators on a robot point us to a simple and quick fix. I wish I had a nickel for every DSC or Crio that had a power lead come loose that was able to be diagnosed and fixed in minutes on the field.
As to the durability of the Victors, you know I am a staunch user and believe in their reliability. However, I don't want to stress them to the point that the FETs drop off the board. I was quoting the IFI mounting guidelines of 2" inches.

Re: PNTA Team 23 control system
 

Looks cool and probably works great as well! The lights are definitely far more visible than on our control system :P (picture related, they're under there somewhere). Just don't try to bring it on a plane! haha

Re: PNTA Team 23 control system
 

Don't think I don't remember you...:ahh:
I have a picture of that side of your robot that I show to people...:)

Re: PNTA Team 23 control system
 

http://vcclite.com/led-light-pipes/f...e-light-pipes/

Run a fiber optic light pipe from each status LED to the outside of the case, properly labeling each one. I have no idea if that will work or is legal and I don't really care to check or ask. Would be pretty cool though.

C'mon inspectors - don't be meanies. ;)

Re: PNTA Team 23 control system
 

Al - I do appreciate your points and helping me rethink everything so there's not a mad dash to make our bot legal come inspection.

Last year, we mounted our router on the rear corner of our robot, and it just so happened that the status lights were facing a 1" wood strip, with about 1/4" distance between the router status lights and the wood. I've angled the router upward in a way to allow for maximum visibility, and the hole is considerably larger than the status lights. I can't capture this in image, but I would imagine you would agree. Every individual light is 100% visible and unobstructed.

As for the wire inspection, I'm aware that inspectors need to visually inspect all of the wiring. We're going to design the placement of the case so that we can simply open the cover to work on components or go through inspection. All the wires and sources are visible and easily traceable.

Jon - We certainly know the vics can pull their own weight! I've made sure that I maximized the height between the bottom vic and the top vic as much as I could. At most, there's 1/2", and it seems to be working just fine, no heat issues whatsoever.

Travis - I thought about this and bounced the idea off of a teammate. In the end I decided against running fibre optics because my teammate and I agreed that it would be hit or miss during inspection. I believe the way I've mounted the router is sufficient for inspection as well as play. If we ever run into a problem with the visibility of the status lights - which we doubt - it wouldn't be too much of a hassle to remount the router onto the top of the case.

Again, I appreciate everyone's constructive criticism. It's going to help!

Dom

Re: PNTA Team 23 control system
 

I've left the case at our school till Friday. When I pick it back up then, I'll take more detailed and relevant pictures, specifically one detailing the router mounting situation and the wiring. The pictures I've got up are pretty lousy.

Re: PNTA Team 23 control system
 

"And this is how NOT to cover an electronics panel."

Re: PNTA Team 23 control system
 

Dom,
It sounds like you are thinking about everything and that is good. I don't have a DAP1522 handy but isn't there a few LEDs on one side? Or am I thinking about a different box? Someone should have asked, how heavy is the box when empty? We rarely have enough surplus weight.

Re: PNTA Team 23 control system
 

To fix the visibility, have you thought about cutting most of the lid away and replacing it with lexan? So instead of having a small access window you can look down through most of the top to have all lights visible. Like this.

As a system that houses a complete electronics package I think it is a great idea. A package like yours would be amazing to have during the build season to test prototypes and such.

However, as a competition robot package I wonder how beneficial it would be. Visibility aside, how easy is it to replace one or several of the bottom victors? If you need more than 8 motor controllers do you put them on the top of the box? ;)

For competition usage or not, I love this concept! Nice work!

Re: PNTA Team 23 control system
 

Al - I believe you're thinking about some other box. The DAP only has LED's on the front face. When empty, the case weighs in at around 5lbs. This is one of the cons of this system, which might prove it's great in certain environments but not fully suited for competition use. When push comes to shove, we might have to relegate this control system to other projects if we can't make the added weight work.

Brendan - The router is positioned up against a downward curve in the front of the lid. I've cut away a good portion of this curve to open up a window a bit larger than the front plane of the router to be visible. Replacing the top of the lid with lexan/poly would not help the visibility of the router status lights, as I cannot replace the curved portion of the lid with a transparent material without ruining the integrity of the lid.

Replacing a bottom victor is a bit challenging, but not impossible during downtime in the pit. One would have to liberate the top and bottom of their four connections each, snip a zip tie securing the victors from swaying (attached to an erector set piece), and unscrew two large screws stacking the vics on top of each other. Replace and play again in reverse. A pain in the butt yes, but not impossible.

I've left room for additional components such as a second sidecar and a few spikes. If we absolutely needed more motor controllers, the best solution I can see would be passing +12v from the PD out to a controller mounted on the robot. It's easier to pass 2-4 wires out of the case than mounting a 9th and 10th vic inside.

Like I said, this package might not prove to be the best idea during competition. But, it'll prove to be a valuable tool for prototyping code and robots, teaching the control system and programming methods, as well as serving as a quickly swappable control system that requires very little modification of the robot to become compatible.

Dom

Re: PNTA Team 23 control system
 

Dom,
It might be the new version.

Re: PNTA Team 23 control system
 

Ah right, there's going to be a new router version. Has FIRST released any information on the new router hardware? If worst comes to worst, we'll mount the router on top of the case.

Re: PNTA Team 23 control system
 

Dom,
I am speaking of the "B" version of the DAP1522 that is now available. There is no change coming that I am aware of.

Re: PNTA Team 23 control system
 

Al, do you have any information if/when these will be implemented?

Re: PNTA Team 23 control system
 

Remember that we have already gone through one radio model and one current model production change. I would guess that changes beyond our control will drive the next change in robot radio. The new control system discussions keep an open mind as to what we might be using in the future. Please keep in mind that FRC is in a growth cycle and it won't take much crystal ball gazing to guess where we might be in 3-5 years in terms of teams and their needs.