Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

Yikes. Wayyy to much going on in that game. Good luck explaining that game to Grandm-....Anyone.

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

Granted, name any FTC game that didn't have a lot going on.

Also, this is the beauty of FTC. Most of their games you can just walk up to and see the main scoring objectives (putting rings on the rack in this case). They don't need to much explaining.

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

James, Thanks for a straight forward response, but that rule only talks about the final position of the 'lifted' robot and not how the robot became 'lifted'. If we interpreted that rule as meaning anyway we could get our robot supported by a partner's robot is acceptable, than making a robot able to jump onto another robot would be acceptable, no? (not that I am suggesting this solution. ::ouch:: ) Usual lifting implies an active role and lifted implies a passive role. This view is supported by this line in the same paragraph you quoted:
Supplying a ramp seems more like a way to enable a partner's robot to lift itself and not actually doing the lift.

As an FRC referee for many years, I have seen the rules used and abused, interpreted and skewed in many ways. I refereed the match when Wildstangs stacked one non-functioning robot on top of another non-functioning robot at the beginning of the match in order to get the lift bonus. While legal at that point in the competition, a new rule was added by the next week detailing that all robots must start each match touching the floor.

This years FTC rules prevent such by not giving the Lifting Bonus if the lift started before the End Game. Assuming that a ramp is acceptable, does this mean if my Robot deploys its ramp before the End Game to allow my Alliance partner maximum time to roll up on it during the End Game that my Robot started the lift before the End Game? Is that different than deploying, let's say, a fork lift mechanism prior to End Game? The fork lift mechanism would not actively be lifting until it was placed beneath the Alliance partner's Robot and made contact with it where the ramp deployment would immediately enable 'lifting' as soon as it is deployed.

Yes, I tend to look at rules and their interpretations closer than most people. As a referee for many years I looked at them to see how the rules were going to be abused by the teams. Finally, as a second year mentor, I get to look at them to see how my team can make the maximum use of the rules. Raul has taught me well ;)

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

That rule defines the conditions for receiving the Lifting Bonus. It does not specify method, and neither do any other rules I saw. It doesn't even say that the partner's Robot must actually "lift" the lifted Robot; it says only that it must fully (and exclusively) support it.

If you still don't believe that a passive ramp applies, you're apparently assuming something that isn't in the rules. That box you think you see is only an illusion.

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

I think the reason this came up is the actual use of the work lifted vs elevated. Lifted implies a result of being lifted (verb) and elevated is typically translated as a position of something relative to other objects.
I am not saying that a ramp is not legal, but if you drive up on a ramp, to the top of a bot, you were not lifted there, even though you are now elevated above the playing surface.
Makes me wonder why the GDC chose the wording they did.

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

Hangin'-A-Round, Quad Quandary, and Hot Shot come to mind...

Anyway, I think the game is quite complex and has some really big flaws. I don't do FTC, so I don't know how achievable finding the IR sensor will be, but I suspect that especially at early events, teams will be awarded the 50 point bonus based on whether or not they were lucky enough to run an autonomous routine to the right randomly selected peg row or not. That kind of massive variation in point values for something that could be done based on luck could potentially really unbalance the game.

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

This is my first year doing FTC and after reading a lot of the mentor manual and the game manual... Plus my experience with FRC I think it will be pretty easy to find that IR module... From there it is only testing the autonomous program until it works. I've taught a lot of classes with the NXT software to elementary school students so I think and the sensor we can use that connects directly to the NXT brick will make this task quite easy.

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

While the IR sensor is certainly not the easiest thing to find, I know that I've seen many top-level teams perfect whatever task involved the IR sensor every year. Going back to Hot Shot, there were teams that could use the same sensor to track the rotation of the goal in autonomous to score, and their shooter followed the goal with high accuracy.

It's a hard task, but I believe that teams that are want to be in contention for the championship will need to take advantage of that bonus.

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

Alan, the same paragraph also states (those are paragraph numbers not rule numbers. Rule numbers have a different format):Years of refereeing FIRST competitions have taught me to read every word carefully. If there is a way to misinterpret the words, they will be misinterpreted. The Manual specifically states that one Robot may lift another Robot to receive the Lifting Bonus, not that one Robot may allow another Robot to crawl up on it till the second Robot has elevated itself above the floor. This is Ring It Up! not Rack 'n Roll.

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

No matter what, a rules interpretation found on Chief Delphi is not binding. I'd suggest asking the official Q&A when it becomes available for a true ruling.
While I agree with the interpretation given by Alan and others, I do understand Marc's concerns - so a request for an official rules/terminology interpretation by the FTC GDC would be appropriate.

I agree that this game is more a reimagining of Triple Play - just twisted 90*.

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

Taylor, I realize that rules interpretation on Chief Delphi is not binding, but in my conversations with Head Refs over the years I have heard many times that the views and concerns expressed on Chief Delphi do influence both the rulings of the GDCs as well as how Head Referees interpret the rules. Many rulings I have been told about started as questions and conversations here.

I actually hope Alan and the others are correct; I just question how they achieved their interpretations. Developing a ramp sounds much more feasible given the size of the FTC Robots than developing a lift mechanism.

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

A couple of quick notes:
1) The lift rule is not exponential; it is 5 points for each extra inch, which means that the extra height might not be as important as it was in last year's FTC game.
2) The FTC kit lacks in several ways, but this year the raw material rules got opened way up. Now we can use any amount of any raw material that is widely available on McMaster or someplace similar. Also, next year North American teams get to start using the Matrix system, which looks promising. I think those two factors will do a lot to make FTC robots more interesting.

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

1) yeah, sorry. Mixing up my games!

2) I understand the options are greater, I'm just not sure the minimum (un)viable executions will be. I've known veteran FRC teams led by professional engineers that struggle with raw material procurement. (No, seriously.) Either way, it's a little worrying to see an impetus for being so passive.

I hadn't intended to argue any single point; I'll just be interested in what will happen. Will powerhouses invest in sky-high lifts without knowing the geometry of their load? Will anyone take a passive route without the guarantee of sky-high lifts? Will anyone want to get on a tall lift? <please don't drop me> What might I learn about student perception of engineering design tradeoffs that could prove useful in the classroom? Curiouser and curiouser.

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

Siri: agreed, it will be interesting to see how those questions play out.

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

Keep in mind that when it comes to lifting the partner robot, there are only bonus points for supported lift up to 24"
So if the bot doing the lifting is 18"tall it only has to lift a bot 6 inches above itself. Still no small feat. Looking forward to see how it all plays out.