Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

For those of you who haven't seen this years FTC game here is the animation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fj2a3_8Az9U

Now we constantly bring up the similarities between games such as Aim High and Rebound Rumble. But it seems like Ring It Up is just Rack n' Roll without the moving Rack in the center but everything else is the same from a game design standpoint to name a few:

Autonomous game pieces are the only ones who stay scoreable in the line
The raising of the robots in the end game
The round individual colored game pieces

I may be wrong but what is Delphi's opinion of this game and it's similarities to Rack n' Roll ( if you haven't seen that game here is a link to that animation as well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khTGSKvDyS4)

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

This is also really similar to LogoMotion from 2011.
Can't wait to see the bots that come out of this :D

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

And triple play from 2005.

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

I see:

• 3x3 grid with floor goal, stackable game pieces for goal ownership, and line completion bonuses from 2005 - Triple Play
• Lifting robots, autonomous "Keeper," vertical rack, and stackable game pieces for goal ownership from 2007 - Rack n Roll
• Stationary vertical rack from 2011 - Logomotion

The similarities to Logomotion end at the vertical rack for me. Ring It Up has a single shape game piece and teams can score on either side of the rack instead of only their own.

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

^ Rack 'n Roll also had "line" bonuses of a different type.

I do like the heavier game pieces and the infrared markers. But that's a heck of a scoring system. Fun coaching job!

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

I find the percentage scoring bonus intriguing. I wonder if it might eventually be applied in FRC settings.

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

The scoring system isn't even remotely close to how scoring was operated in 2007. Just because it has rings and a rack doesn't mean it's a similar game.

There weren't line "bonuses" in 2007, you only got points for rows, and the scoring progressed exponentially. A "row" of one tube was worth 2 point, a row of two was worth 4 points, a row of three was worth 8, etc. These bonuses are much closer to the tic-tac-toe style of 2005 than they are to 2007, though the highest tetra placed awarded control of a goal in that game rather than the largest quantity of scoring objects. In 2007, scoring on a peg guaranteed you ownership unless the peg was spoiled. The opponent couldn't place more ringers on that peg to attempt to negate it, unlike this FTC game or FRC in 2005.

Lifting robots in the end game only had two scoring levels in 2007, and didn't reward you for lifting further beyond that threshold.

There may be some surface level similarities, but in terms of game theory these games aren't very similar.

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

The scoring is more like 2005, since points are given for the relative positions of the game pieces as well as their presence. This seems like an interesting game (and a hard one). I think many robots will barely be able to score, but the good ones will be very impressive.

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

The scoring system is very different (and more complicated), but it's more than just rings and a rack. White autonomous keepers, owning pegs (total tubes instead of spoilers), tic-tac-toe-like completion vertically/horizontally/diagonally, playing on the other side of the rack... make match approaches between the two much more similar than, say, LogoMotion (which really is mostly a surface similarity). It also resembles Triple Play perhaps more closely, especially in terms of scoring and grid layout. However, this misses some critical strategic aspects like swinging around the rack, that are better exemplified in Rack 'n Roll.

As for the elevation, I'm not into FTC kit (or even VEX now) but I'll be interested to see what sorts of liftee robots the exponential rule creates. By and large, a fully-equipped robot could be lifted to maximum point bonus in Rack 'n Roll. I picture some really small box bots for rookies to be lifted the way the FTC crates were last year.

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

My question is how is 'lifting' defined? Is providing a ramp for a partner to roll up on considered lifting or do we have to mechanically lift our partner?

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

I suspect that question, and many others, are answered in the Game Manual. Read it first, and if you still have questions read it again. You'll ask much better questions, and waste much less time overall, if you do it that way instead of the other way around.

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

Despite some differences, the OP is correct this game is quite similar to Rack n Roll. FTC teams will be wise to study successful 2007 FRC robots.

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

Alan,

I'm sorry if my question didn't meet your minimum requirements. Before posting the question though I did read the game manual. In fact, I've read it a few times so far and will probably read it quite a few times more before we reach competition. Lifting was not defined.

You obviously know not the answer to my question and could have saved everyone some time by not replying at all.

Best Wishes,
Marc

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

If you wish to give scathing retorts to people that are trying to give you advice, please think again.

Regardless

Lifting is not defined, so do so as you please.

Please note I found this within a 3 minute search, I have no involvement with FTC, and this was the first (and probably last) time I have looked at the FTC manual.

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

In the game manual part 2 it says:
"In order to earn the Lifting Bonus, the lifted Robot must be fully supported by the Alliance partner’s Robot and not by any other game object"

So yes a ramp would count

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

Yikes. Wayyy to much going on in that game. Good luck explaining that game to Grandm-....Anyone.

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

Granted, name any FTC game that didn't have a lot going on.

Also, this is the beauty of FTC. Most of their games you can just walk up to and see the main scoring objectives (putting rings on the rack in this case). They don't need to much explaining.

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

James, Thanks for a straight forward response, but that rule only talks about the final position of the 'lifted' robot and not how the robot became 'lifted'. If we interpreted that rule as meaning anyway we could get our robot supported by a partner's robot is acceptable, than making a robot able to jump onto another robot would be acceptable, no? (not that I am suggesting this solution. ::ouch:: ) Usual lifting implies an active role and lifted implies a passive role. This view is supported by this line in the same paragraph you quoted:
Supplying a ramp seems more like a way to enable a partner's robot to lift itself and not actually doing the lift.

As an FRC referee for many years, I have seen the rules used and abused, interpreted and skewed in many ways. I refereed the match when Wildstangs stacked one non-functioning robot on top of another non-functioning robot at the beginning of the match in order to get the lift bonus. While legal at that point in the competition, a new rule was added by the next week detailing that all robots must start each match touching the floor.

This years FTC rules prevent such by not giving the Lifting Bonus if the lift started before the End Game. Assuming that a ramp is acceptable, does this mean if my Robot deploys its ramp before the End Game to allow my Alliance partner maximum time to roll up on it during the End Game that my Robot started the lift before the End Game? Is that different than deploying, let's say, a fork lift mechanism prior to End Game? The fork lift mechanism would not actively be lifting until it was placed beneath the Alliance partner's Robot and made contact with it where the ramp deployment would immediately enable 'lifting' as soon as it is deployed.

Yes, I tend to look at rules and their interpretations closer than most people. As a referee for many years I looked at them to see how the rules were going to be abused by the teams. Finally, as a second year mentor, I get to look at them to see how my team can make the maximum use of the rules. Raul has taught me well ;)

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

That rule defines the conditions for receiving the Lifting Bonus. It does not specify method, and neither do any other rules I saw. It doesn't even say that the partner's Robot must actually "lift" the lifted Robot; it says only that it must fully (and exclusively) support it.

If you still don't believe that a passive ramp applies, you're apparently assuming something that isn't in the rules. That box you think you see is only an illusion.

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

I think the reason this came up is the actual use of the work lifted vs elevated. Lifted implies a result of being lifted (verb) and elevated is typically translated as a position of something relative to other objects.
I am not saying that a ramp is not legal, but if you drive up on a ramp, to the top of a bot, you were not lifted there, even though you are now elevated above the playing surface.
Makes me wonder why the GDC chose the wording they did.

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

Hangin'-A-Round, Quad Quandary, and Hot Shot come to mind...

Anyway, I think the game is quite complex and has some really big flaws. I don't do FTC, so I don't know how achievable finding the IR sensor will be, but I suspect that especially at early events, teams will be awarded the 50 point bonus based on whether or not they were lucky enough to run an autonomous routine to the right randomly selected peg row or not. That kind of massive variation in point values for something that could be done based on luck could potentially really unbalance the game.

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

This is my first year doing FTC and after reading a lot of the mentor manual and the game manual... Plus my experience with FRC I think it will be pretty easy to find that IR module... From there it is only testing the autonomous program until it works. I've taught a lot of classes with the NXT software to elementary school students so I think and the sensor we can use that connects directly to the NXT brick will make this task quite easy.

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

While the IR sensor is certainly not the easiest thing to find, I know that I've seen many top-level teams perfect whatever task involved the IR sensor every year. Going back to Hot Shot, there were teams that could use the same sensor to track the rotation of the goal in autonomous to score, and their shooter followed the goal with high accuracy.

It's a hard task, but I believe that teams that are want to be in contention for the championship will need to take advantage of that bonus.

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

Alan, the same paragraph also states (those are paragraph numbers not rule numbers. Rule numbers have a different format):Years of refereeing FIRST competitions have taught me to read every word carefully. If there is a way to misinterpret the words, they will be misinterpreted. The Manual specifically states that one Robot may lift another Robot to receive the Lifting Bonus, not that one Robot may allow another Robot to crawl up on it till the second Robot has elevated itself above the floor. This is Ring It Up! not Rack 'n Roll.

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

No matter what, a rules interpretation found on Chief Delphi is not binding. I'd suggest asking the official Q&A when it becomes available for a true ruling.
While I agree with the interpretation given by Alan and others, I do understand Marc's concerns - so a request for an official rules/terminology interpretation by the FTC GDC would be appropriate.

I agree that this game is more a reimagining of Triple Play - just twisted 90*.

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

Taylor, I realize that rules interpretation on Chief Delphi is not binding, but in my conversations with Head Refs over the years I have heard many times that the views and concerns expressed on Chief Delphi do influence both the rulings of the GDCs as well as how Head Referees interpret the rules. Many rulings I have been told about started as questions and conversations here.

I actually hope Alan and the others are correct; I just question how they achieved their interpretations. Developing a ramp sounds much more feasible given the size of the FTC Robots than developing a lift mechanism.

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

A couple of quick notes:
1) The lift rule is not exponential; it is 5 points for each extra inch, which means that the extra height might not be as important as it was in last year's FTC game.
2) The FTC kit lacks in several ways, but this year the raw material rules got opened way up. Now we can use any amount of any raw material that is widely available on McMaster or someplace similar. Also, next year North American teams get to start using the Matrix system, which looks promising. I think those two factors will do a lot to make FTC robots more interesting.

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

1) yeah, sorry. Mixing up my games!

2) I understand the options are greater, I'm just not sure the minimum (un)viable executions will be. I've known veteran FRC teams led by professional engineers that struggle with raw material procurement. (No, seriously.) Either way, it's a little worrying to see an impetus for being so passive.

I hadn't intended to argue any single point; I'll just be interested in what will happen. Will powerhouses invest in sky-high lifts without knowing the geometry of their load? Will anyone take a passive route without the guarantee of sky-high lifts? Will anyone want to get on a tall lift? <please don't drop me> What might I learn about student perception of engineering design tradeoffs that could prove useful in the classroom? Curiouser and curiouser.

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

Siri: agreed, it will be interesting to see how those questions play out.

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

Keep in mind that when it comes to lifting the partner robot, there are only bonus points for supported lift up to 24"
So if the bot doing the lifting is 18"tall it only has to lift a bot 6 inches above itself. Still no small feat. Looking forward to see how it all plays out.

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

My interpretation is easily explained. The scoring for a Lifted Robot is based on height above the floor tiles, on support, and on timing. The rules do not care how the Lifted Robot got where it is, as long as no field structure was used to help get it there and as long as it didn't start to get there before the End Game began.

The answer to your original question about how "lifting" is defined: It isn't. I don't believe that is an accidental omission.

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

Question from a FRC person. What are you FTC people thinking to tell the difference in weight of the rings?

I understand if people want to keep this a secret, but I am curious. I have my own ideas :)

Thanks

Re: Ring It Up! and Rack n' Roll
 

HiTechnic came out with a force sensor on the day of the game release. We'll probably buy one of those and play with it as a start.