Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

I believe that this is a key point here. Teachers are just the beginning in a long line of public services waiting to be abused. What if I graduate into a job that is being given the same harsh treatment that teachers are being given now? Teams like 781 are finding ways around this by becoming a community team. So what if this is more difficult than a "regular build season." I prefer this to teachers buckling under and loose their rights. Unless this is resolved, I can guarantee that becoming a teacher will be crossed off my list of potential careers.

This is bigger than FRC. It isn't just about how poorly the teachers are being treated now, it is about how poorly every public service will be treated in the years to come.

For the record, my team is also being negatively effected by this, I'm not just some onlooker providing my $0.02

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

great post Gregor that's the big picture. 772 is still going. We are leaning on our sponsors , mentors and parents to keep it going. It will be different and the pressure will be on to make a robot in 6 weeks but pressure makes diamonds

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Well, it's nice to know that everyone is so confident that they are "right". I wish I knew all the answers to everything, too. :) It's easy to get passionate, but lets' chill it a bit with the capital letters (internet "shouting" is rarely a sign of rational discussion) and approach this with the same constructive, informed approach that we'd like to encourage in our students, eh?

I'm not in Ontario, I don't know the situation on the ground, but I might have some perspective that will be helpful.

I used to teach in the British Columbia high school system. About ten years ago the government passed legislation limiting teachers' right to strike, and removing class size limits from collective agreements. They also removed targeted career preparation funding for high school students and cut back in a few other areas as well. Turns out that the Supreme Court said it was unconsitutional how they went about it, but that decision came years later... to late to make any real difference.

My union, the BC Teachers' Federation was strongly opposed to this, but didn't engage in any lasting job action or extracurriclar bans.

So... good for kids right? It never really interrupted an FRC season, a basketball season, or anything like that.

Over the past decade however, FRC has completely died off in BC. It's part of an overall reduction in teacher volunteer time for coaching, councils and a variety of activities. Teachers aren't doing this out of spite, or in attempt to bargain... they are just busier doing their "day job" than they used to be.

For example in our tech studies department we saw a 30% increase in class sizes, and about a 50% cutback in funding as a result of these changes. That means 30% more marking, 30% more students needing help with classwork after school, and a whole heck of a lot more time scrounging the materials that are needed to run a technology education program.

You'll notice I'm not teaching in a high school any more, and I'm not running an FRC team any more... the conditions in the high schools certainly made it easier for me to move on to something new.

So... what's the relevance to Ontario? Here in BC we didn't stick it out in an extended job action to protest the cuts back in 2001. We didn't cause a short term disruption to schools and extracurriculars.

Is BC better off as a result? Well, the education minister who made those cuts a decade ago is the Premier now, and has been going around the province talking about suddenly discovering a "skills shortage".

Perhaps if we had taken a stronger stand a decade ago, I'd still be teaching high school and running an FRC team; perhaps the other teachers who were running FRC teams would still be doing it, too; perhaps we could have convinced others to get on board more easily... and perhaps BC wouldn't be using a "temporary foreign worker" program to bring in skilled workers from overseas to solve a "skills shortage" that was ten years in the making.

I honestly don't know... but I do know that the province that has some of the best teaching salaries and working conditions in Canada is also the province with the greatest FRC involvement. Perhaps those two things are kind of related, and perhaps... just maybe... protecting those things is in the long term best interest of teachers, students and the province alike.


Jason

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Where's the Chief Delphi "like" button? Rep just doesn't do it justice.

-Nick

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

now that's a big picture.!!!! Great post Jason!!!

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

My first obligation is to my family. After that, FIRST is pretty darn high up on my list*. I give up a great deal to run 1551, and unlike a lot of teachers I get paid for it -- almost a third minimum wage, not counting the time I don't report (and there's a good amount of that). I'd do it even if I didn't get paid anything (but please don't tell my school board that). I love FIRST, but not because I love robots or robotics**. I love FIRST because it enables kids to be even more amazing than they could be, and it sucks community members in to that passion, even community members without children on teams. There isn't a single education dollar or minute better spent than FIRST...

But my family comes first. I can't blame anyone for making a decision that helps them keep their career, their livelihood, their ability to pay their mortgage and feed their loved ones.

Crappy, no-win situations lead to crappy, no-win choices. Demonizing the teachers for standing with their unions against this terrible law and/or not eating an untenable financial penalty is indefensible. I love my students and I love FIRST, but I made a vow to my wife. So those of you who are criticizing these teachers*** need to just back off.

*Kickoff is on my anniversary this year. I'll be at kickoff.

**Or even games. I love games. Board games, war games, you name it. Roborally is apropos, and also one of my favorites.

***I'm not one of them. I'm not Canadian.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Jason,

Thanks for your post! I agree 200%.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

You must spread some reputation before giving it to dtengineering again.

...

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Interesting article by Karen Nancarrow

Are Those Darn Teachers Still Complaining About Their Salaries?
An opinion piece, by Karen Nancarrow, Ontario Certified Teacher

I’ve just read one too many teacher bashing posts on Facebook today.

As a teacher, I will of course, provide a slanted opinion, but here you are. Disagree with me if you’d like, but not until you read this entire article, start to finish.

I love my job. Period. I would do it for less money, fewer sick days, and less time off. I would do it if I had to be tested yearly by the government to show that I know my stuff, and even if extra-curriculars were forced on me. I would still do it. I love it.

I went into teaching because I love kids. Yes, there are many people who think we go into this profession for the money, but please consider this. A starting teacher’s salary in our school board is $39 000. And this is after an average of 5-7 years to get a contract. In order to move up on the pay grid, teachers must have years of experience (so our salary goes up a little every year up to a maximum of 10 years) and we must also take extra courses in order to be paid the maximum amount. So in order to reach the top of the pay scale, a teacher must have had a contract for 10 years and have taken several extra university credits (paid out of their own pockets AFTER two university degrees).

So given that it might take 10-15 years to make it to the top of the pay scale (which is still a modest amount), many people’s assertion that teachers are in this for the money really have no justification for their position. When you ask teachers to look at “how good we have it”, please realize that when we go into teaching, the reasons are NEVER about the money! If I wanted to get rich, I definitely would not have chosen teaching as a career.

Pensions: Yes, we have a good one. Because we PAY into it!! Every maternity leave that I’ve taken (3 in total), I have paid back my pension and paid $8000 plus each time to keep it updated. Pulled it out of an RRSP.

So putting the money argument aside for a moment, this fight with the government actually has NOTHING to do with money. The bottom line for most teachers is that we have the RIGHT to negotiate with our employer. In fact, when this whole thing first got started, most teachers I know said “pay freeze for two years – yup, times are tough – we get it”. But it was only after more details evolved that we realized that the government wants to take away WAY more than two years of a pay increase.

Some say that we should be negotiating with our employers.

POINT OF CLARIFICATION here – the government is NOT our employer!! The school boards are. Imagine a third party coming in, going over your employer, who you have a good working relationship with, and telling you and them what you will be paid, how many sick days you will get, what days you will take off without pay, and that EVERYTHING you have negotiated with your employer in the last 20 years has now just been taken away in a heartbeat. No discussion. You have no say and your employer has NO say. Not even 5 minutes of discussion were we given – thanks so much!

Wouldn’t you fight to at least have the discussion with your employer? Even if you ended up with the same thing the government wanted to impose, would you not fight to have the ability to try?

Here are the two biggest concerns that I have:
Yes people not in unions dislike unions. But unions are the backbone of a lot of our working class people – whether they are in one or not. If unions fall, we should ALL be very afraid! What the government seems to be attempting to do is to get rid of unions. This is not about an argument with teachers. This is about the government exerting unjustified power to wave their magic wand and do whatever the heck they want and this is NOT OK!! Whether you are in a union or not, whether you support unions or not, remember that they are the ones who have fought for statutory holidays, minimum wage, overtime and good working conditions. Whatever is negotiated, ALL workers benefit! Get rid of the unions – you’ll also be getting rid of the middle class. Less people have less money to spend = more people out of jobs. Period.

2. This fight is about protecting our democratic right to free collective bargaining with our employers. If Bill 115 is allowed to stand (which I doubt, because one very similar to it was just reversed in BC because it was considered unconstitutional and unlawful by the courts), then this allows governments free reign and places themselves ABOVE the Human Rights Act and ABOVE the Employment Standards Act!! We should ALL be very scared of this! They are putting themselves ABOVE the law.

That’s it. Top two concerns for sure. Not about money, sick days, pension or benefits.

The government could have easily said to the school boards (OUR EMPLOYERS) that they had a certain amount of money and then teachers would have (just like we do every 2-4 years) negotiated our contracts with our employers. But they didn’t.

Because of their excessive spending over the last 8 years, the Liberals panicked when it came time for the bi-election a few months ago. In order to get the Conservative vote, they acted hard-nosed to get a majority. How’d that work for you McGuinty?

I get it. You’re upset. When teacher’s contracts are splayed out in the papers for everyone to see every few years, people get pissed off at our “privilege” and our sick days, and our summers off. We all have that one teacher who was mean to us (or 2 or 3) and it’s time we give all teachers heck because of the very few bad apples.

AND on top of that, what we have always gets compared to what everyone else has.

Teachers work hard. No one is saying that you don’t.

Teachers deserve every penny they get. No one is saying that you don’t.

Teachers need sick days because we are around sick kids who wipe their boogers on us every day. And get lice, Fifths disease and pink eye. The flu, barf on our shoes, and sneezing in our face. Oh yes. Fun times.

Teachers get the summers off. Yup. And we don’t get paid either. We get paid for TEN months.

Teachers negotiated banking sick days. This actually ended up being better for the government than paying us vacation pay, so we actually gave in and took the banked sick days over having vacation pay every year. Banking sick days means that we have a bit of a short term disability plan if we get really sick. It means that at the end if we haven’t used all of our days, we get a small retirement gratuity, which is then taxed and half taken away. This actually SAVES the government money in the long run – cheaper than the supply teachers they would have had to pay had we taken all of those days. (Let’s not mention that Dalton is getting paid right now for doing NOTHING (excuse me, I mean organizing the Liberal Leadership convention), and when he retires in a month will get a retirement gratuity of $315,000), but who notices that?

We get that we are well taken care of. But we help you RAISE your children. And for some, we provide a safe place, food for breakfast, a hug a day, love and support when they get that NO WHERE ELSE.

And we do a ton of extra-curriculars. The public loves us when we do them and they get outraged when we don't. They are ALL VOLUNTEER!! And we love doing them, but NO ONE has the right – not our employer, not the government, and not the public – to pressure us or to chastise us when we choose not to VOLUNTEER!

I had a student tell me yesterday that I have changed his life. Not because I do an after school activity with him, but because I listen to him, care for him, spend time with him and value him.

Yes, we’ve all had a crappy teacher or two. But please everyone… don’t make it about that. Teachers deserve your respect. You love us all year until it’s time to negotiate with our employers which we have every right to do.

Parents – you’re pissed off? Good. Because now you’re paying attention! So how will you expend that frustration? Posting more Facebook posts about how horrible and greedy teachers are? I hope not.

Do better than that. Stand with us.

We are fighting for your children. For our own children.

We are fighting for public education.

We are fighting for democracy.

And if we get taken down, I’d watch your back, because you might be next….

PLEASE sign the petition to STOP Bill 115: http://stopbill115.ca/

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Great read, thank you for posting that. Where was this published?

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

On her facebook page

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Suggest to her to publish that to a newspaper. It was exceptionally well written.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Many Ontario teams are restructuring themselves as Community Groups to avoid this nightmare. In order to prevent them from doing so and keep them out of competition, many teachers and school administration are witholding their funds and equipment. I have now watched three schools whose admin and staff have turned 180deg against their students. For any students who are facing this sort of resistance, politely inform your teachers and administration in writing that they are in breech of section 337 of the Criminal Code of Canada - Public Servant Refusing to Deliver Property. This should get their butts in gear to let you guys have your robotics equipmet. - http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/a...1.html#docCont

"337. Every one who, being or having been employed in the service of Her Majesty in right of Canada or a province, or in the service of a municipality, and entrusted by virtue of that employment with the receipt, custody, management or control of anything, refuses or fails to deliver it to a person who is authorized to demand it and does demand it is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding fourteen years."

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Threats of legal action are something of a nuclear option, for several reasons. Although they have their place, I would hesitate before issuing any, especially ones that accuse a specific person of criminal activity.

If you deliver that message, you're essentially alleging a criminal offence, which implies to the person receiving it that the police and Crown attorneys could become involved. While that may make them fearful of the law, it will also sour their relationship with you. In a circumstance where you have little to lose, this might be a reasonable loss—but here, where you presumably expect to work with them in the future, I think it's a bad idea.

(Granted, if students deliver it, rather than adults, the school may feel less threatened by it. I still think it's a bad idea, on balance.)

Instead, I would appeal to their sense of duty more circuitously. If you believe the section 337 argument is justified, or if you believe that the argument is specious but strong enough to provoke action anyway, then make a public statement—like an op-ed in a newspaper, press release from an appropriate group, or the display or dissemination of protest literature—laying out the argument and warning them in general terms that they might be contravening the law.

In any event, I don't think s. 337 is going to hold up for you. I had a (quick) look at cases citing that section, and the closest I could find was Ambrosi v. British Columbia (Attorney General), where, at paragraph 75 et seq., the court lays out what it means to be "authorized" to make the demand. Even that decision isn't really on point, and you'd be breaking relatively new legal ground in pursuing this.

It seems the central question would be, if they're entrusted with the property, why aren't they also entrusted with its disposition? What authorizes you to override their judgment, in making your demand? It seems to me that withholding the property—if it is theirs to withhold—is a legally valid exercise of their power, whether or not it is morally justifiable.

And even if they are willing to engage you in the legal arena, they'll just call your bluff, and say "tell it to the Crown attorney", in the firm belief that no charges will be brought.¹ Would you actually participate in what could be a multi-year legal battle, over this?

¹ You could bring a private prosecution like Ambrosi apparently did, but that's really going out on a limb.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Witholding the equipment would be considered casting the first stone in this case. In these situations the relationship is often already considered to be sour.

Whether it holds up or not is of no concern. In this case you're banking on the idea that it will scare them enough into releasing the equipment. It is indeed a bluff as far as I'm concerned. Engaging in a legal battle will consume far more resources than you stand to gain from the release of the equipment. The bottom line is that the administration wants to avoid a legal battle as much as possible. Hopefully the threat of legal action will outweigh their commitment to their cause.

In 90% of these cases the admin and staff are doing this to "cover their butts" should their union ask them "why did you allow the team to continue?" This provides them with an out in that they were threatened with legal action.

In any case, this tactic has proved effective for several teams without further escalation. Provided you keep things civil in your correspondance, it shouldn't sour relationships any more than they already are. - Nothing personal, this is just business.