Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

True, but it's a bad bluff and and even worse bet.

Speaking as a school board member (for the district I live in, not 1551's district, though I think I can speak for a lot of school officials in this regard), I can almost-but-not-quite guarantee that any extracurricular team that threatened legal activity against their sponsoring school would be immediately disbanded, and all club's assets -- which are in fact the school's assets -- would be liquidated and the money put in the school's general fund.

...and the team would never, ever be allowed to re-form as a school club.

<Swift>Like, ever.</Swift>

This being the case, I highly suggest that teams not even pretend to start thinking about having an inkling of possibly doing this maybe if the circumstances are right.

There is no bad situation that cannot be made worse by the misapplication of lawyers.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

I'd just like to call out this key point.

At least south of the international boundary, school clubs usually are not authorized to demand this equipment by the 337 equivalent. It isn't actually "theirs" once it's accounted for through/by/with the school. You can dodge this (as we did) with meticulous records, but if you don't have have those and cannot handle the separation cordially (possession being 9/10ths down here) you're likely SOL in the US. I hope it's not the same up north, but teams would do well to check district rules before trying such a dangerous politico-legal stunt. You'll likely find you're much better off in the court of public opinion, if anywhere.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Well it's worked so far so it can't be all bad. Keep in mind this is not my idea, this was dreamt up by two students' parents who are both lawyers in a reputable firm.

Yep - and you'd have a PR nightmare when the stories hit the newspapers as they did here. Good luck with that.

I don't think you quite comprehend what's going on. The teams don't have anything to lose in these cases. The schools have already disbanded the clubs and they are being forced to restructure as community groups. Last time I checked our public schools are publicly owned and thus the equipment and funds belong to the public: students, sponsors and individuals who put them there in the first place. In a private school however, you could probably have gotten away with this.

Why would they ever want to?

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

I don't think sarcasm and belligerence are helpful attitudes, here. It's a PR nightmare either way, but "part of us tried to sue us" is an easier sell than many might anticipate.

Many schools and organizations have default responses to threats of litigation, as advised by their lawyers -- and this can turn a short-term problem into a very, very long-term problem.

I advise caution.

It could be different in Canada, but in the US those resources belong to the public, yes, but as administered by the school administration and overseen by the school board. As such, the admins/board can't "take" the equipment and money for themselves, but they can absolutely resell and repurpose it for other school uses. (It thus remains public assets, but not FIRST team assets. "Owned by the public" and "owned by the team" are not the same thing.)

Possible. As a long-time teacher and school board member I'm only familiar with US law in general and NYS law in particular on this matter, though I do know that most other states operate in a similar manner. It's true that I'm not familiar with Canadian law, and I'm certain that there are others that know better than I do.

Is the anticipation that this situation (no extracurricular activities at schools) is a permanent situation, beyond the 2013 season to perpetuity? (These teams may very well be back next year, after all.)

Is there no concern that FIRST/school relationships might be permanently damaged by threats of litigation? (If FIRST teams start to sue schools, schools will be much less likely to start or to continue FIRST teams, so the impact may go well beyond the team doing the litigation-threatening.)

Is there no concern that the team/teacher relationship might be damaged by this situation? (If people on my team sued the school, I imagine it could make my position extremely uncomfortable and much more tenuous -- especially considering the sudden loss of collective bargaining rights!)

"Nothing to lose" is often, well, not the situation people think they're in when they're feeling that they have nothing to lose.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

I suspect this issue has quieted down both on here and in the media as the schools are in winter shutdown right now, but it remains an open issue that's roaring down on FRC Kickoff. It ought to be interesting to see what OSSTF does come January 1st, when Education Minister Laurel Broten has the power under the controversial Bill 115 to impose contracts on the union.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

UPDATE: Broten says she's going to impose the contracts before school returns on Monday, but also repeal bill 115, hoping that will quell the storm and bring the return of extracurriculars.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/p...chool-teachers

ETFO has not yet indicated a response is coming, OSSTF says they're going to release their response later today.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Actually, Sam Hammond (ETFO) is holding a press conference right now. Unless someone can correct me, the future of Ontario public high school teams depends on the stance of the OSSTF and not the ETFO?

Right now Hammond is taking an ambiguous stance on whether extra-curriculars will continue to be not supported by teachers, and it may a stance continued by the OSSTF.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Correct. ETFO could be relevant to JFLL, FLL, FTC, and VEX teams though.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Yes, but repealed after the forced contracts expire in 2014.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle6891873/

Who says the Liberals will be in power then?

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

What amuses me is how she could possibly be so brazen as to believe that this might calm the storm. She just beat the teachers over the head with her controversial sledgehammer and then says "OK, now I'll put it away", like that would make things OK? Is she crazy?

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

The conservatives publically support bill 115

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Having a look at the Teamlist for 2013, I noticed a few things:

Several teams have changed their Team Name with FIRST:

Stoney Creek, ON Canada CNC Woodcraft / Gridpath Solutions & The Stoney Creek Community 2056
St. Catharines, ON Canada Innovation First International / General Motors St. Catharines Powertrain & Simbotics 1114
LaSalle, ON Canada General Motors of Canada / Centerline / The Chrysler Foundation / Dr. Anil Dhar Medicine Professional Corp. / Bell Canada / Rockwell Automation & Community of LaSalle 772
Oakville, ON Canada Hatch / Javelin Technolgies / Teradata / North American Palladium / NuTech Engineering / Mattamy Homes / Sheridan College / Professional Engineers of Ontario / Optimist Club of Oakville / Davis Webb LLP / TD Bank / Susan Diane Brown / Derek Blakely Wealth Management & Oakville Community Robotics 1334
Mississauga, ON Canada Pratt & Whitney / General Motors of Canada / Karan Fastner / Templeton & Sons / Hydrogenics / A'S Precision Machining / Microchip Technology Inc / Ontario Power Generation & Theory6 1241
Kitchener, ON Canada General Motors / Paul Davis Systems / Rockwell Automation & REBotics Community Group 2702

These 6 teams used to have their associated highschools named in the official team name. (Orchard Park SS, Governor Simcoe SS, Sandwich SS, Oakville Trafalgar HS, Rick Hansen SS, and Eastwood Collegiate HS)

The other thing I was half-expecting to see was a few rookies or veteran rookies (low new-issue numbers) for these community restructured teams that couldn't get their school to release the name or number.

Could this be one of those?

Kingston, ON Canada Queen’s University Faculty of Education Community Outreach Centre & W.A.F.F.L.E.S. Community Robotics 4476

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

No, they are a community team that have been doing Vex and FLL for years. Some members used to be on 2809.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Schools don't "own" the number so there's no release required. FIRST owns the number. Changing a partner organization is very easily done in TIMS. The partner type is changed from school to community organization. There is, however, more to it than that in changing from a school-based team to a community-based team.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

In the registration thread, Mark just posted about the first 7 casualties. Hope the OSSTF talks tomorrow and Wednesday can save some of the others that I know could still fall before regionals.