Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

I'm not sure that anyone out side of Ontario knows what is currently happening in Ontario. I am not as knowledgeable about it as I wish I was, but as far as I know the Government and Teachers aren't agreeing, so there may or may not be Extra Curricular activities during the 2012-2013 School year in Ontario. So, yes this would mean that any Ontario FRC, FTC, FLL, and Jr.FLL teams that are in any way associated with a school won't be able to participate this year. (If they don't sort things out).

You can read more on it here.

Today the teacher's did a protest, they all wore black, and there were no after school activities. We were suppose to have a meeting today abut meeting with a company for sponsoring another team, but unfortunately we couldn't have it.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Getting rid of extra curriculur activities would include getting rid of all sports teams, drama/musical clubs, math teams, robotics teams, student councils, class representatives, and much, much, more. I don't see how this could impact a community in any way but negative. Just my $0.02

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

The Government of Ontario passed a bill earlier this week that removed the teacher's unions ability to bargain, on top of wage freezes and reduced sick days. This means that these were imposed on the teacher's unions, without any ability to bargain. This has piqued civil rights issues within Ontario, and is also the major reason why teachers are protesting. If you notice in the article below, all the signs in the picture mention "collective bargaining," which is the removal of bargaining abilities of teachers, which is causing the biggest uproar. It was made illegal for teachers to strike in this bill.

The only way for teachers to fight back now is to stop extracurriculars. That is everything from drama club to chess to robotics to sports teams.

There have already been multiple protests infront of Queen's Park (where the Ontario capital is), including one that is happening right now.

Here is a recent article on the issue, but if you google Ontario teachers 2012, you will find a plethora of information on the subject.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

The only way to have a team in Ontario would be if they were not affiliated with any school/school board.

So 99% of the teams in Ontario would not be participating in the season. Unless they some how were allowed to take the school name out of it and partnered with a sponsor or local university, and not all teams would be able to do this.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Ok that does clarify it a bit, thank you. Let's hope everything works itself out, losing most of FIRST Canada would be a big blow to our community.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

This situation is being seen around the US.
Personally, if this happened in our State, and the consequences were similar to what is unfolding there in Ontario, I'd be all for it.
Teachers in general have always bent over backwards, dug into their own pockets, and most importantly, given up their personal time to do extra-curricular activities.
This may a good time to reflect and look at all that teachers sacrifice for the success and benefit of students........and often times, at the expense of their own kids. :eek:

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Chicago. Average teacher salary: $76,000.00, not including benefits. Offered 16% pay raise. Went on strike.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

As much as I want to agree, I think we are better off setting this discussion in a non political direction. Is there a reason you can't run the teams without the schools? They shouldn't be able to hold your funding hostage.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

It's far, far more complex than that.

Many Chicago classes had 40-50 students to a room, many had no air conditioning, the city broke their 4% contractual pay raise, and from what it looks like has been trying to sweep all the widespread and deep systemic problems under the rug by throwing money on the teachers to keep them complacent. They went on strike despite being offered 16% because the 16% was never what they wanted in the first place, and Emmanuel appears to be the one trying to make it about money to avoid dealing with the real issues.

Here's a 1-page summary of the Union demands, and none of them involve paychecks.

I agree with Tom Line though, let's try to keep politics out of this.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Well you just threw the door wide open with your post. But I will refrain.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

I don't think it's ever a fair representation to boil an entire issue down to 2 sentences. Chicago politics is unrelated to the topic at hand.

Back to the topic at hand, I very much hope it doesn't come down to this. The team358 statistics suggest that FIRST Canada represents a solid 6+% of the community, or almost a year's growth in teams.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Please stop tempting me.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

That sounds like a lot of people in FIRST, both educators and not. :cool:

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Quoted for truth.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

This is actually one of the biggest issues. All of our funding would be held by the School, we would pretty much have to start from $0.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

As easy as that sounds, it isn't so simple.

1. Who would supervise us?
2. Where can we get access to a shop?
3. Who would supervise us(again)?
4. How would we miss school for competition, as parents don't like unexcused absences.
5. What if someone gets hurt?
6. What about insurance?
7. What about storage?

Another huge problem would be figuring out who "owns" the current robot and material? The school does (in most cases), so we would be starting from scratch. We would need new everything, from a cRIO to plywood to aluminum to wheels.

And to make matters even worse, we have less than 4 months to kickoff to sort this out, and I'm sure there are many other problems that I have missed.

So yes, there are multiple reasons as to why teams can't run without school support.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

I hope the teachers get things sorted out so life goes back to normal but as you said, you do have 4 months which is better than no time!

1. Have your current leaders up and left or is this under assumption. Parents? Sponsors?

2. Who says you need a metal shop to make a robot? There are a ton of successful teams that operate out of garages, vacant buildings, and parents basements using hand tools, power tools, and a chop saw. It can be done my first team has been in their coaches basement for 8 seasons with much success! :)

3. See 1.

4. Talk to your principle/head of your school.

5. Good question! This may depend on where you end up meeting/working out of. Even when we met at our coaches house we signed liability forms and had shop training.

6. You have me there! ;)

7. Depends on your workspace but if you keep it organized you won't need much space.

I wish it was easier to answer these questions but maybe you should also talk to other teams in your area and around Ontario.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

The teachers are completely in the right doing this. Its the Government of Ontario that needs to get things sorted out.

No, our current leaders have not left at this time, but I'm talking about Ontario teams in general, not my specific team.

Part of the reason I wrote the above post is because I have talked to a few members of some other Ontario teams. The general consensus is"oh we will just split from the school." I'm trying to convoy that this isn't as easy as it sounds.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

I never said who was at fault. I don't know a lot about either side so I'm not going to comment about who needs to fix a side. My comment was more towards fixing the problem.

Thats good that you still have your team leaders!

Yes and no. I haven't witnessed a team splitting from a school but I have been on both teams (school based and community). It is hard to look into a team and say how difficult or easy it would be to move out from your school. Some teams have known resources at their fingertips that they use outside of the school or have the ability to use but haven't yet.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

I don't know much about the government in Ontario, but I know that Chicago kids are effected kind of in the same way due to the strike this week. I am not sure about what they are doing for clubs but I know the schools went to IHSA (the Illinois High School Athletic Assoc.) and asked for permission to hold practices and games with back up coaches/volunteers (which would work for FRC). Is there a governing body in Ontario that you would be able to go to in order to request the same type of thing? Does this only effect the public schools or are private schools striking too? Could you partner with a private or magnet school and share facilities?

As far as the information posted on the Chicago Teacher's strikes, and any strikes, I encourage you all to look into both sides of the stories, not just what the union one sheet says.

At the end of the day I just wish everyone would remember that education isn't about what you get paid or how many hours you work, it's about the kids. Some kids just want to go to school and play with robots, I don't think this is too much to ask. A huge thank you goes out to all the volunteers that don't get paid a dime to teach kids STEM.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Your post is comical at best and similar to what I would expect from someone who has never stepped into a real classroom.
If you did, I'd laugh even more.

Cmon, tempt me in another thread.

Real talk.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Sorry Tom, but I take issue with this post.
What was the purpose behind FIRST being involved with a school to begin with? the Partnership with mentors?
You make it sound like the teachers are the "bad guys" preventing students from participation in FIRST.
The public always forgets that teachers have families like everyone else......and want whats best for their own kids as well.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

It's much easier to get funding when you're affiliated with a school, there's a common meeting place, several if not most high schools have some sort of shop or lab with open space to work, almost all high schools have computers that can be used for CAD and programming, you don't have to worry about bathrooms, water, etc.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

All -
Emotions are raw right now, especially among those of us in the teaching community. For us teachers - please realize that people involved in FIRST are genuinely interested and committed to seeing a great education to our students - in and out of the classroom, in and out of North America.

For the non-teachers - please realize that teachers have been knocked back on our heels for decades, we're being programmed by our unions and other entities to take issue with just about everything, and the proverbial camel has had just about enough straws.

As a sports analogy, perhaps it would be better to think of these situations as the referee lockout in the NFL - the refs want to go to work and do a good job, but are severely limited due to forces beyond their control.

Nobody wants to see FIRST teams suffer, nobody wants to see education suffer, nobody wants to see teachers suffer (except perhaps Ether ;)). As difficult as it is, let's not turn this into a political discussion - rather than throw things at the presumed sources of the problem, let's go about creating solutions. We're used to working in a 6-week constraint - now we've got 4 months. No problem, right?

A big stumbling block I see in separating from school is losing the tax exemptions afforded to schools. Is there a Canadian equivalent to a 503c?

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

So the bomb went off in Ontario. Well all across the US the school system is about to implode. Many school systems have shown no fiscal restraint and have racked up massive unsustainable debt load. Public union teachers have used their political money clout to get more and more benefits and salary for less work. Unfunded pension plans are a crisis every where. For some one to work for 30 years and then pay them a large portion of their ending salary for the rest of their life with full benefits is a nice deal. Unfortunately mathematically it doesn't work. Greece is finding that out now. Our team has already had our school district divorce us. We are now independent. It was painful. Every team that is married to a school system should begin thinking about what they would do not if but when this happens to them. First has this great vision of future growth, however I don't believe they understand the severity of the school problem and FIRST is at this time reliant on the public school system in a big way. Ontario and Chicago are in the news now. This is beginning to happen all across the country. What will your team do. Have you thought about it.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

You don't strike me as the sort of person with whom it would be possible to have a reasoned discussion. So thanks, but no thanks.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Ether made a statement and then backed off to avoid a political discussion. I respect him for that (whether I agree with him or not.)

You chose to keep it going, in a confrontational manor. Why?

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Lets leave egos, political opinions, and sarcasm at the doorstep and discuss the issue at hand.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

For those in Ontario: Not to worry, Federal Minister of Labour Lisa Raitt will just legislate the teachers back to working extra-curriculars. After all, she's legislated just about every other employee threatening work action back to work in the last 2 years.

</sarcasm>

In all seriousness though, OSSTF (the secondary school teacher's federation) was only threatening killing extra curriculars on wednesday (yesterday) for one day. Its the elementary teachers that said they would can them altogether until something is done to fix it.

Also, remember, it's not the school preventing you from participating, therefore they shouldn't hold the funding. Its the teachers union who are refusing to do extra-curriculars. I remember during work-to-rule years ago, our club stayed alive because the teacher wanted it to, going against his union.

EDIT: I suspect many long-standing FRC mentors will have this mentality too. Its about the kids. Not about their political battle with Queen's Park.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

In our district we could not meet without the teachers sponsors, so no teacher no school team.

BTW Teacher sponsors rock!

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Wow. Your post is insulting at best, not just to Ether, but to every engineer and volunteer who participates in FIRST, and is certainly not GP. I would expect better behavior from a representative from a Chairman's Award team.

Politics exposes a lot of vitriol on both sides. Our job as members of the FIRST community is to work together to inspire science and technology, not hate and intolerance. What is great about FIRST is that it brings together people from the engineering and business community AND educators to teach Real World skills.

That being said, back to the OP.
It's unfortunate that the Ontario teams are put into this situation. Per my understanding of FIRST policies, teams are not required in any way to be associated with a school. I know of teams that are based in 4-H clubs, Scouts, etc. It's not an easy road to transition out of schools (essentially starting over), but if your team is dedicated, you'll find a way to persevere.
This is where I'll plug the non-robot parts of FIRST as useful: Every year as part of our business plan, we create disaster scenarios with plans and contingencies in case any event should occur. This includes loss of our robot space at our school. Plans like this are helpful for man-made problems as well as natural disasters. I encourage every team to create these plans.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

I expect this throughout veteran teams, for teachers who are truly "hooked" and passionate about the program. However, if this little conundrum doesn't go away easily, it could spell trouble for rookie teams in Ontario, at least ones with "rookie" teachers. (Rookies to FIRST, that is.)

-Nick

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

I guess I still don't understand completely but that might be a difference in Canadian versus US schools.

Whether the teachers refuse to participate in extra-curricular activities or not, the team's money is the team's money and can't be held hostage. Unless the team's money is primarily coming from the school. Even in that case, here in the states many school administrations (upper management) don't fall under the union umbrella: as a result if you were here in the states you should still be able to get your funding.

Not having a full machine shop hurts, but I'd wager dollars to donuts in the 3 months prior to the start of the season you could find someone to donate machining time. Build in someone's pole barn or garage is pretty do-able to.

Frankly, school absences are no big deal. It all comes down to a balance: is a handful of days at school (of which you'll spend thousands in your life) more important than FIRST?

Again, maybe I'm not seeing the forest through the trees, or maybe circumstances differ in Canadian schools. I think you guys can pull yourselves together, show some good old FIRST initiative and get 'er done.

Edit: It sounds like the threatened extracurricular strike is only elementary teachers and only one day, that's good news.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Sorry but I fail to see your generalized point, as its just your opinion.
I am a former engineer, parent, and volunteer at many FIRST/STEM related events who doesnt agree.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

I'm an engineer and a volunteer and I think Glenn was spot on.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

If you are unwilling to further explain your sarcastic point, then dont quote my post. I called your bluff with the hope that you would explain further.
Apparently, I was wrong.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Why don't we all take a deep breath, let bygones be bygones, and drop the politics and vitriol it has raised? Nothing more needs to be said here for it - feel free to create another thread or take it to PMs, guys.

Back to your regularly scheduled topic...

I really hope we don't lose the Ontario teams. Even if it's like becoming a rookie team again, go work in a parent's garage if you need to! Please, don't do anything rash (like breaking into a classroom to steal your old robot back from the school!)... work within the system and with the school administrators! I'm sure you can work with them to help highlight the issues they're facing while also continuing to participate. How awesome would it be for both them and the team to get a news spot about the "robotics team that could" and the hardships you had to go through to keep working. Talk about the dedication of your teachers, and how badly you want their support back for the team!

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Just a few observations:

Having contingency plans as suggested is always a good idea. Loss of a major sponsor/key mentors/shop space, robot gets lost on the way to competition, robot is way too heavy when inspected (so you need to drill hundreds of holes in it, but I digress), etc. are all possibilities. Thinking about them ahead of time is a good exercise in helping team members prioritize, think creatively and develop some resilience so that is something bad happens, they either have thought their way through it or know they can think their way through it.

With respect to online/written debates, there is always a good chance for misunderstanding. When talking about contentious issues that people are very passionate about, it is difficult to have meaningful exploration and understanding in a forum such as this. We all fall into the trap of assuming that others have seen, heard, experienced the same things we have so "if you don't come to the same conclusions or have the same views that I have, you must be deficient". Then, if we deteriorate into mocking other's views or saying that "EVERYONE else disagrees with you and agrees with me", it makes people lock into their positions and no actual exchange of thinking happens.

My experience has been that asking questions, to find out why people think the way they do, is more effective than simply dismissing and insulting them. However I welcome hearing other's perspective on this.

Respectfully submitted,

Richard Yun,
Team 781 Leadership Mentor

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

So I've run a pretty successful VEX program with ~80-90 roboteers in it for the last three years without a school district supporting me. (And please note, they actually bill me for access to the school to run events)

As easy as that sounds, it isn't so simple.

1. Who would supervise us?
Parents / adult mentors. I've had roboteers act up, but once their parent / adult shows up, the nonsense stops.

2. Where can we get access to a shop?
Garage, empty warehouse space, store front, barn, etc. Find a sponsor!

3. Who would supervise us(again)?
Again, parent/adult mentors. I ask every parent who had a kid in the program "Of the three groups: the district, me and you; who has your son/daughter's best interest at heart." At no time in the last years has a parent answered with someone other than them. Our team is fully staffed with parents and engineers that care about the future of the roboteers and are highly interested in robotics.

4. How would we miss school for competition, as parents don't like unexcused absences.
"Please excuse my son Timmy from school on 1 Apr - 5 Apr 2012, he was at a STEM oriented event with me". They are not going to say no.

5. What if someone gets hurt?
It's called insurance and a waiver. It's why you have a safety captain to keep accidents from happening. It's why early in the season you have a first aid session.

6. What about insurance?
Call your local insurance agent. Fund raise to pay for it.

7. What about storage?
Find a sponsor.

None of this is rocket science. 100's of robotics teams across the US have figured it out. Question is how much do you want to make it happen?

We were locked out of the district 4 years ago during a strike. I said then I would never go back to a school. I teach roboteers that if you don't step up to control your own destiny (learn, work, plan your future, goals, study, etc.) that you are not going to have a happy life.

I support and respect teachers in everything they do. They have limited tools to accomplish some goals. One their tools are strikes and "work to the contract" They do what they have to do, I do what I have to do. Your Plan A was to be at the school. Time to execute Plan B.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

I'm not sure why the government picked this fight in this way. Labour disputes were once commonplace in Ontario schools, and both sides' tactics are well known. The New Democratic and Progressive Conservative governments that preceded the current Liberals fought consistently with teachers, janitors and administrative staff over a series of contracts dating to the early 1990s. Once in power, the Liberals managed for many years to avoid a continuation of that labour war—but now it looks like old battles are destined to be fought again.

From a political strategy point of view, it looks like the government took a risk and it didn't pay off—much like the NDP in the 1990s. Only this time, it's hard to see the upside of their bet. Instead of convincing the public that fiscal priorities trump labour ones, the Liberals managed to make themselves look draconian.

The new labour law (introduced as Bill 115, and named in typical Orwellian fashion as the Putting Students First Act, 2012) is a real mess from several angles. The (minority government) Liberals teamed up with the Progressive Conservative opposition to pass legislation that pre-emptively suspends the ability of education workers to strike during a two-year period. Moreover, it mandates that their collective bargaining agreements not include raises during that "restraint period". This has (unsurprisingly, and justifiably) prompted debate over the constitutionality of the law, and the extent to which the ability to freely bargain collectively is recognized as a legal right. Legal challenges are imminent, and may well last for several years.

Also, any contract that neglects or contravenes the terms set forth in the act is instead assumed to contain them, or is voided to the extent necessary—in other words, it doesn't matter what a school board and union agree to, to the extent that it's not consistent with the act. That's a step beyond the usual back-to-work legislation, and raises questions about the freedom to contract recognized in law.

The act also contains subtle, crafty mechanisms to allow the government to fine-tune the implementation of the law. While not inherently a bad thing, the act is written in a way that gives the government (via the Lt.-Governor-in-Council) wider than usual power to control it. Indeed, the act's entry into force requires a legislative trick based on an odd provision of law that allows parts of statutes to be proclaimed into force at different times, even absent language to that effect in the bill.¹

While I can see how the unions might feel backed into a corner, they will ultimately have to take responsibility for their negotiating ploy to cancel some extracurricular activity, and its educational repercussions.

In any event, judging by the last time this happened—in 2001, the high school teachers union declared an end to extracurriculars during contract disputes—there will still be teachers who decide to persevere in other ways, and work around the union's demands. It's an open question whether that's a good thing in the long run—because it conceivably weakens the teachers' position—but at least in the short run, sporadic non-compliance in the name of worthy causes is probably a net plus to society.

¹ Perhaps this is for the better—practically speaking, rather than as a matter of democratic principle—as it lets the government shut the law down, even if the Progressive Conservatives refuse to vote in support of a bill to repeal it.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Well put, Tristan. In 1997 I walked the pavement during the political protests against Mike Harris' policies and his Common Sense Revolution. I also lost several days' pay during the Rae Days of 1993. Neither experience was much fun and it gives me another reason to be happy that I retired and will not be as actively involved this time around. Let's hope this gets worked out before it drastically affects the FIRST program. Teachers would much rather be working with their students.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

The biggest thing for all teams is being able to spilt from their school if needed. Im sure we could do it but then what would we do? Maybe for the 2013 season ALL of ontario works together to so everyone can participate. Maybe FIRST Canada can step in to help out teams that are at risk of shutting down. Partnerships between teams will help them stat strong throw our strugle.

To be noted, it was said that the extra curricular activites were only canceled on wednesday, thi is true, but only for now. If they dont get it sorted out it will be for the rest of the year. And my teacher told me it wasnt their decision if they come and do extra curricular activities, they arent aloud to, period.

Im sure my team (772) would be able to work at the university or college or our main sponsor would give us space, but thn the issue of what property is ours an what is the school's comes into play.
Im really worried about the schools that have no where else to go, and for teams that were just rookies and are now rookies. If you need help please dont hesitate to PM me, im sure I could be of some assistence to some teams.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Will we be seeing the Niagara Triplets again? Only this time the Ontario 78-lets?

The ultimate Eh-Team.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

As a mentor on a team in a highly political school district, I'm going to stay out of the general discussion. However, I wanted to stop in and publicly thank Tristan for his input. History is a major part of politics, even though we engineers typically don't pay attention to it during our required PolySci classes in school :rolleyes:. We can all learn and adjust by looking at the historic reasoning behind current policy.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Could honestly be a viable option for some to many teams in Ontario if things get tough.

-Nick

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Lets do it Nick! ;) lol

In all seriousness, im sure teams could form small groups/Alliances of about 5 or so teams to share resources and help eachother out. Who knows, they could become life long partnerships.

There will be a couple rookies in windsor this year, so we would be helping them out.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

There are many sponsors, including here in the US, that have restrictions on who they're going to write their checks to. As a consequence of that, many teams often have their corporate sponsorship routed through their school and/or have school-based accounts where they ultimately draw their funding. While some teams have officially become non-profit organizations, not every team has and some sponsors still wouldn't or couldn't fund such an organization without school affiliation.

That being said, it doesn't seem like the school's are threatening to hold the funding "hostage" in this situation (at least based on this thread). Teams may still be able to spend their money, so long as they find proper avenues and locations to work outside of school hours.

That very much depends on the school system and the culture. While from our viewpoint as FRC mentors and engineers, we'd rather have students engaged in FRC activites, there are plenty of others who do not agree (often the parents and non-FIRST teachers).

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

My original high school had a policy where if you missed 15 days of school (excused or unexcused) you would automatically receive straight Fs. The reasoning was you hadn't been at school enough to receive enough instruction to possibly do well.

The valedictorian my senior year missed over 25 days as he was a very serious competitive skiier. There was some very awkward backpedalling done. :rolleyes:

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

I decided to create a thread in the "chit chat" forum about the Chicago teachers strike. I think it's an interesting subject worth discussing. People who don't want to be involved in that discussion don't have to visit the new thread.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1185643#post1185643


Please keep this thread about the Ontario situation. If you would like to have a civil discussion about the issues related to Chicago, the other thread is a place where you can do that without further derailing this thread.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

To give people a little bit of perspective, the FLL team that I am an alumni of/currently mentor, has been shut down for the foreseeable future. The messages below are from the coach of the team. An entire grade of students at this school will be (most probably) missing their senior year of FLL, while teachers continue to have their democratic rights abolished.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

What a novel concept.... :cool:

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

As a fiscally conservative teacher, I find this thread interesting. The only two thoughts I'm willing to put out there on this forum are:

A. Best of luck to the Ontario teams. Hopefully you won't need it in this regard, and everything will resolve itself. If not, some scrambling and hard work should enable you to continue your team.

B. The reason it's so hard to keep politics out of this discussion is because it's inherently political. This is why it's so important for people to become informed, stay informed, and participate in the political process... Avoiding politics because you don't "like" it surrenders what little control you have over the governmental process!

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Currently many Jr. FLL & FLL Teams in Ontario are in jeopardy due to the potential strike and cancellation of extra curricular activities.

However, it is ONLY the public schools (per my limited understanding) who are going to strike. This means teams could try and team up with teams from the Catholic board schools and/or private schools.

I know (read as: hope) that all teachers who are involved in all FIRST competitions are very disappointed about being forced to stop their teams, but I also know in secret that they are all going to be building robots in dusty, hidden areas of their shops/class rooms! ;) :ahh: :yikes:

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Just a few things I know are;
It will be up to the teachers if they will run FRC in the school this season. So far, I do know of teams that will continue this season in the TDSB. The TDSB will support teams with funds (as before) if the head teacher(s) will commit to running the program and for go any job action. And yes, there are many teachers that would rather give to students then not.

For teams looking to run in a TDSB school they MUST have a school teacher there for all meetings.

As a team mentor I look forward to working with my local team in any way I can.

Randall Thomas

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Tomorrow all students in high school and some grade schools in the Windsor Essex area (772's and many potential rookie teams area) will be leaving class to protest for the teachers and against the government. Hope this works out that we will keep Extra curricular activities!

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

That should be...interesting.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

I see bad things in the future of this plan...

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

A similar thing happened in a Toronto school last week, and I've not heard of any negatives yet.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Many Ontario Elementary and High schools have been having student walkouts in protest of the teachers taking away their extra-curriculars.

Effective? I'm not sure, but the media are sure having a field day with it all. The teachers and Queen's Park can't stay at odds forever if the students are going to keep walking out.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Lets attempt to squeeze something productive out of this thread.

Questions I was hoping to have answered when opening this thread:

What have other teams done in seasons with labour disputes/ years with unknown level of teacher involvement?
What were the operational issues you came across in trying to run a team separate from a school? (ignoring fundraising)


Questions I have for Ontario teams/teachers:

What levels of involvement have you been able to been led to expect from your teachers?
I expect the answers to vary on this one. Currently we have been able to borrow and steal robots from the school as needed during school hours for community demonstrations, etc. Is this the case at other school as well?

Speculative answers not welcome.


Information on how the mentors (sans teachers) of 2809 are proceeding in case anyone finds it useful. We are fortunate in that we are structured as both and a school club and a Queen’s Engineering Society club. We have transferred money from the school club to the EngSoc one as a precaution and will be running weekly training sessions out of a university building starting next week. The university people we have talked to have indicated we should not need additional paperwork for liabilities and are covered by the university. We will be enforcing a stricter code of conduct for the students since we are not at the school are now guests at the university. We have made no travel plans yet, electing to observe the labour situation and will be depending on parent involvement if the situation is unchanged.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

While ordinarily I'd say students walking out is a bad idea—mainly because it wouldn't ordinarily end well for the students—the recent Quebec student strike has primed the media and the populace with the rather extraordinary concept that students are empowered to take matters into their own hands and be heard loudly.

So I think it will be reasonably effective. Dalton McGuinty saw what happened to Jean Charest and doesn't want to be next.<sup>1

1</sup> McGuinty is the premier of Ontario, leading a minority government; Charest is the former premier of Quebec, who lost his own seat in the legislature, and whose party lost the recent election, in large part as a result of discontent with his handling of the Quebec student strike.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

My question to Ontario teams: Currently 31 of last years 78 teams in Ontario have registered for a regional (as well as 4 rookies). How did you convince your team contact to register and what are you going to do come payment time?

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Article about the Windsor Walk out.

The walk out went pretty well in my opinion. My Chemistry teacher (the class I was in at 10:30 when the walk out started) stopped class of r aminute, opened the door, and said that we could take a 1 minute brake if we wanted. However we were taking down an important note o everyone just stayed till we were done our note. Many people were supportive of the students, the Vice principle and Principle were outside keeping an eye on us, rather than kicking us off the property or sending us to class.

We'll see October 11th if there will be Extra Curricular Activities or not.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

The problems have not affected most Catholic schools or Private schools, so teams like 771, an 610, which are private, won't have an issue. The problem ly's in the public school board. Our public board will not let our local FLL teams register until this is all over, and to my knowlegde registration for FLL ended on the 30th, so because of this all our effort to start FLL teams (an we had about 5 schools interested in starting teams) has gine to waste.

For FRC, my teacher mentor contacted Mark beadner (sorry if miss-spelled), canadas regional director, and he told us to register now as if nothing is wrong, if something does happen then they will help take care of it.

Now since FLL isnt starting in our area, im hoping that the 4 new rookie FRC Teams that weare starting won't be affected by all of this.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

We have not had a problem with labor disputes or unknown level of teacher involvement. We were asked to remove our materials and equipment so that the space could be re-purposed and was left homeless in spring of 2011.

Since spring 2011 we now work in a former retail store inside a local mall. In running the program outside of the school we have had to carry our own liability insurance and have had to add workshops to train the students on emergency situations that could occur outside of the school as well as how to be safe when arriving and leaving the work sessions. We still remain connected to our school system by having a teacher and being a club with a student activties account.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

We have been proceeding as normal, we will deal with problems when (and if) they happen.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

I think that number speaks for itself.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Don't be so sure. I'm not Mark McLeod, but consider these registration numbers.

As of October 5th of the specific year, number of teams registered for:
GTR East 2011 - 3
GTR East 2012 - 4
GTR East 2013 - 9

GTR West 2011 - 3
GTR West 2012 - 13
GTR West 2013 - 4

Waterloo 2011 - 8
Waterloo 2012 - 7
Waterloo 2013 - 20+ (Event is full, an unknown number of teams are on the waitlist)

Total Ontario Events 2011 - 14
Total Ontario Events 2012 - 24
Total Ontario Events 2013 - 33+

Now there are other factors to consider, such as Ontario teams competing outside Ontario, and non-Ontario teams competing in Ontario, that being said, registration in Ontario is basically on the same pace or a slightly better pace than in past years. Typically, Ontario teams have been slow to register compared to their American peers. Having only 37 of 78 (up since the original post) Ontario teams registered at this point is not actually that alarming.

The numbers seen in other robotics programs are similar. FLL in Ontario actually has more teams than they did last year, while VRC in Ontario is up from 82 to 116 teams from October 5, 2011 to October 5, 2012.

Now, these numbers could tumble dramatically as the season progresses, depending on how this labour situation plays out. But for right now, there's no reason to panic. Things are progressing relatively normally in Ontario.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

And here I was getting excited because we were pushing 80+ VRC teams in BC this year. We'll have to kick it up a notch! ;)

More to the point of this thread, however, is that we've been through a number of labour disruptions here in BC over the decade or so that I've been involved in competitive robotics. Our procedure has always been to carry on and hope for the best. So far, fortunately, things have worked out. In the long run (and hopefully the short run) things will work out okay in Ontario, too. If anything, this reinforces the benefits of having a strong school-community bond and an adult leadership that revolves around both teachers and volunteers. It's tough to build, but crucial for overcoming hurdles such as this.

Jason

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Am I the only one that didn't know BC has FRC teams?

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

They don't (anymore).

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Search British Columbia get this : Rookie From British Columbia

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Well would you look at that! A rookie team in BC and Saskatchewan.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Wow! That is very cool. I'll have to get in touch with them.

That makes them the fourth FRC team from B.C., and the only one currently in action. At our peak we had three FRC teams.

I am keeping my fingers crossed that 2013/2014 brings at least one more rookie team from BC.

Jason

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

What was the reason your team folded in BC?

Is there anyway we could help to start more teams out West??
PM me if you'd like a bit of help starting teams

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Different teams in BC have folded for different reasons, but most seem to be linked to the difficulty in establishing community based mentorship relationships, thus leaving the bulk of the responsibility for organizing the team on one teacher, or a small team of teachers, at the school.

When the lead teacher moves on to a new job, or has to take time away from the team for other issues, someone needs to be able to step into the gap... or the team folds.

In my case, when I took a new job in post-secondary education there was no one at David Thompson Secondary willing to step in to be the lead teacher for the team... so although we had healthy sponsorship arrangements (thank you General Motors Canada, in particular) in place, and plenty of students wanting to be involved, there was no one willing to say "I'm in charge!" and take the team forward.

I should also add that there is no provincial government funding or support for competitive robotics in BC... yet. Looking at provinces and states that have seen significant FRC growth over the past few years, the direct funding and indirect support of government can play a major role in establishing the groundwork for building FRC teams.

Perhaps somewhat related more to this thread I should add that I wasn't surprised to see that teachers were reluctant to volunteer for a task of FRC's magnitude. During my 13 years of teaching high school the BC government went through several rounds of "belt tightening" in the education system. Ultimately this downloads the cost of providing a decent curricular education on to teachers who now have more students in each class and fewer resources to teach them with. It is very clear to teachers (and, hopefully, students) that curricular activities must come before the extra-curricular activities. As the curricular demands on teachers were increased the time and energy available for extra-curricular activities decreased. In addition to this very practical constraint, I should add that many of the government's actions had a very negative impact on teacher morale. This affected extra-curricular activities from drama to athletics and, yes... robotics. It would be fair to say that even without an intentional "ban" on extracurricular activities government decisions had slowly and quietly been cutting away at teachers' ability and enthusiasm to support activities outside the classroom.

That is perhaps one of the reasons we are having good success with VRC here in BC. VEX can be integrated into the school curriculum much more easily than FRC due to the extended build/competition season. This year members of both the VRC World Championship Alliance, and the VRC World Finalist Alliance were from BC. (Yes, Gladstone Secondary had a 1-2 finish.)With luck, as our VRC team numbers continue to grow, we will build up a culture of competitive robotics in BC, and begin to form the corporate and governmental ties that have created the conditions for FRC to succeed in other provinces and states.

Jason

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

This seems to be a problem with small-town teams in general. I'm only now (in our eighth year) getting to the point where I'm comfortable that 1551 would survive if something (good or bad) happened to me.

That kind of structure can be hard to build, especially because of the time commitment -- but it was probably easier than I made it. Live and learn!

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/...714/story.html

Word on the street is that Mr. McGuinty has resigned and "prorogues legislature". I wonder what this will mean regarding Bill 115 and Robotics.

"He says there was little hope of getting the public sector wage freeze the minority government needs to trim the $14.4-billion deficit because the opposition parties are opposed, so he adjourned the legislature to allow time for negotiations."

Hopes are high!

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

His resignation is effective as of a date to be determined later. The prorogation¹ was effective immediately (October 15).

It will have no direct impact. Bill 115 passed the Legislature and received royal assent on September 11. It was proclaimed into force² on September 22, retroactive to September 12. (The government has since made two regulations under the act, relating to wage deductions and sick leave.)

Indirectly, it might affect the negotiations—for better or for worse.

That's a different labour issue, for public sector workers in general, rather than education workers specifically.

¹ Declaring an inter-session break, like an adjournment in the U.S. Congress.
² Except for section 20 (the self-repealing clause) and sections 22 and 23 (which should probably have been proclaimed into force, but for which I assume that the omission was immaterial).

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

A little unfortunate news. The "strike" has officially startedd, but just barely, as of right now it is the teacher's decision wether to continue extra curricular activities.

News article from The Windsor Star.
http://blogs.windsorstar.com/2012/11...strike-action/

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

I stand by my view that FRC Mentors will in general go against the union's requests.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario/...kids-out-of-it

The Ontario Secondary Teacher's Federation has announced that all extracurricular activities are to be boycotted, effective no later than Monday December 10. Teachers can be fined by their union for going against this.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

How large is the fine?

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Crossing a picket line is a risky move regardless of fines. It can cause grudges with a union that can work against you for years.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Yeah I'm just wondering what the union is threatening them with.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

To Jared's point, violation can result in open publication of their name as well as suspension of union services. The fine itself is up to $500/day. :eek:

News article

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

So sad that they can do this. I wish these teams and their teachers good luck.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

If an employer retaliated against an employee with a $500 fine, would a union stand for it? The union seems to have lost its sense of purpose, in its zeal to win.

The fine is likely a bluff calculated to intimidate. The union can bill the member whatever it wants, but if the member won't pay, the union would have to sue them for breach of contract—which I can't see going well for the union. (Do they even have a membership agreement that can be enforced contractually? Not to mention the public relations issues that the trial would present.) Kicking the member out might be problematic as well; I'm not sure if the union's charter or membership agreement permits that. Suspension of services and outing them are probably legal, as long as they don't defame the member in doing so.

In fact, while the union has probably kept the threat of a fine relatively quiet in the past, openly announcing it was perhaps the biggest gift they could give to the Ontario government. Now the government can say that it's invoking the bill 115 provisions in order to prevent the union from punishing teachers who are committed to the students' extracurriculars. If there's anything that can soften the public's justifiably negative opinion of bill 115, it's that.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

In my personal opinion we are going to see much greater financial challenges for robotics teams. Although I agree that we should not try to use Chief Delphi for a political discussion, I do think we as mentors, need to be involved in politics if we want to move the STEAM agenda ahead.

In the past few months I have been encouraging folks in my community to be involved in local politics and I, myself have decided to run for school board.

So if you think the political environment is not better for robotics than in the past, I would encourage for those that have the experience, knowledge and a servant heart, to run for public office and make your community an great community thru robotics and STEAM education.

Cheers,
MC. - In April , vote for MC for school Board.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

2013 ought to be an interesting year for the FRC community in Ontario. Some teachers will (quite rightly) tell their union to shove it, and continue FRCing regardless of the consequences (real or imagined) it might carry. Other teams may sit the year out (or become extinct), while others will turn to their mentors in industry to carry the load.

Teams whose lead mentors are not directly affiliated with their school and have a non-teacher's-union controlled place to work, such as 1114, Karthik (who works for IFIs Canadian Office), and their closed DSBN school gymnasium practice facility, shared with 2056 and the rest of NiagaraFIRST, will likely weather the storm whilst ruffling the fewest feathers with the union.

ETFO (The Elementary Teacher's Federation of Ontario) members in Simcoe county (Barrie area) started a work-to-rule effective yesterday.

OSSTF (The Ontario Secondary School Teacher's Federation) is expected to follow suit.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

More related info: Grade 6,7,8 students at a Barrie area elementary school staged a walkout yesterday in protest of Bill 115 and Their Teachers taking away their extra-curriculars.

Expect to see more student walkouts in the coming weeks.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Windsor has a walkout on Monday.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Rumors have started running around our team that the season is looking "canceled".

I have yet to receive any actual confirmation from the teaching staff as i have been away from the program sick for the last two months. I am however concerned its not looking good for team 2200.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

I have tried my best to put students FIRST (For the Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology)
FIRST NOW AND FOREVER

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

I'm at the point where I am thinking about moving my team to a community level. Renting a space and having parents or industry mentors supervise. This idea is looking pretty expensive right now but I really hope that it doesn't come to that.

Hopefully the teachers will do something really drastic. It will cause a chain reaction to cause the problem to be resolved due to public pressure.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

Team 1325 has been wrestling with this problem since the beginning of the conflict and has been transitioning into a new system. We still have the blessing of working in our school and having a board moderated bank account by getting a school administrator to help out. They handle all the of the back end management that many students take for granted (permission forms, police checks for mentors etc) and secured us a permit to work in the school allowing the team to continue to exist.
A downside is that we do not have access to the schools shop after school (as the administrator is not certified to operate the machinery), however with the help of outside sponsors, mentors and hand tools the team is doing fine.
We suggest teams in jeopardy to reach out to their administration (VP's, principal etc) to try and get supervision or permission.Team 1325 wishes all Ontario teams the best of luck with the upcoming FRC season and beyond.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

As a FIRST Lego League coach and FRC team member, I am shocked and appalled. What terrifies me is that I do not know where my anger and frustration should be placed. I cannot tell if it is the unions or the government who are causing me to shout expletives at my computer screen at the notion that young men and women are being denied the chance to experience the glory of FIRST.

Could someone make a list, when the time comes, of all the teams in Ontario that continued with their seasons as well as those who were stopped from doing so, if it comes to that? Somehow these teams need to be recognized.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

This is our current plan A; however, there are some details to be worked out yet.
It is highly unlikely that we will get any school admins to help in covering mandatory supervision, as it would be considered *unfair* for other school clubs and sports teams. I am meeting with my principal either tomorrow or Monday to determine if we can get parents "board approved" as supervisors.

Everything financial would still have to go through admins, which will be inconvenient, but it definitely is preferable to having to pack up and move elsewhere (plan B). Plan B's major setbacks involve transportation every day to the build site and somehow getting thousands of dollars of school property and cash in our possession.

Going to be an interesting couple of weeks for sure.

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

I believe that our administration helped us out for two reasons, the first being that we are very active in the school community (we demo our robot at almost all school events and act as a huge promoter of our school). Second, we contacted past sponsors and asked them to support us, both in a traditional sense (either monetary, manufacturing or in-kind) and within our school.
If you can show that companies have faith in you (so much so, that they are willing to give you thousands of dollars), your administration may think twice about not supporting your team.
Once again best of luck, if your team would like specific information or help feel free to PM me and 1325 will help as much as robotically possible. :]

Re: Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?
 

My advice to those teachers of Ontario FRC teams:

Stand up to your union.

Tell them what they're doing is WRONG. It does not solve the problem of Bill 115. It is not putting pressure on Queen's Park to do something. It only hurts the students, who have done NOTHING to deserve this.

Don't believe the $500/day scare tactic the union is using. They're supposed to be fighting for YOUR rights. How does fining you $500/day accomplish that goal? I know I'm not the only one questioning if the union can even legally DO that at all, never mind whether or not they will.

I don't begrudge the teachers the right to protest Bill 115 at all. It is dangerous legislation that was poorly thought out and rashly hammered through parliament. Something needs to be done about it. Absolutely. This is the wrong way to go about it. Go, protest at Queen's Park, assemble on their lawn. Get in their face. STOP HURTING THE CHILDREN WHO HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT, AND CAN'T DO ANYTHING TO HELP.