Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

During our 2012 rookie season, we used only hand tools to build our robot. We are now looking to purchase some tools for more accuracy and efficiency. Last year we worked at the back of our teacher's physics classroom, we are now looking to convert half of the classroom into our robotics workshop, with some kind of semi-permanent division between the classroom and workshop.

We have:

• wired jig-saw
• wired circular saw
• wired drill
• almost dead cordless drill, will have to be replaced before season
• 3-5 hacksaws with metal and wood blades
• 2 hammers
• a smattering of clamps
• wrenches (two sets of allen, two sets of box-open combo, two sets of socket)
• a pair of digital calipers

The list above is the tools I remember being used most frequently, not tools used for one specific job.

I need suggestions for machine tools as well as any other hand tools that you guys use very often. Specific models and/or brands are even better. Obviously anything CNC will be more expensive, but it will also improve accuracy and repeatability. We think some useful things would be:

• many more drills (cordless or wired?, looking at this)
• more hammers
• more wrenches (allens with handles, ratcheting, sockets)
• reciprocating saw
• any tools that will help in getting accurate measurements
• many vises, mounted on sturdy work tables
• arbor press
• mill
• lathe
• miter saw (maybe compound?)
• band saw (horizontal or vertical?)
• table saw
• drill press
• bench grinder
• disc/belt sander
• I've heard cold saw, but I don't know if that is a different saw type or just a different type of blade
• combo setups of any of the above (such as a 3-in-1 mill, lathe, drill press)
• no one on the team can weld at the moment, but if anyone learns we would need welding tools as well
• someone suggested an 82 tooth carbide blade for cutting Aluminum up to 4in, what tool is this on?

We will be looking to buy at least one nice worktable with a peg board, similar to this. We'll also probably build some tables that we will be able to beat to death, then replace/repair cheaply. We didn't and still don't have a well organized workspace. Any suggestions on methods of organization are welcome as well.

I've tried searching for tools, but the results are too wide ranging to help. Thanks! :D

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

What kind of budget are you working with?

Have you looked for tool donations?

Have you tried getting machining sponsors? Parent sponsors? Parents lending tools for the team?

More info with help us help you!

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

I'll have to talk to our treasurer for budget but we are looking to compile a list of tools from highest priority to least. Last year we had a few parts machined by a parent sponsor who had a contract with a machine shop, but this year he won't be with us anymore. We have begun looking for machine shops in the area but last year we had at least one negative response from a shop. One of our members also said his dad may be able to lend us tools, but that member hasn't shown up for a while.

Right now I'm looking to compile a list, being as specific as possible, because we have someone who is looking to sponsor us that is asking for the list. I do not know how much he/she/they are willing to spend for any donated tools, so I want the list to be as comprehensive as possible.

Thanks!

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

Drill press, a couple of extra drills, Dremel and tools, some more wrenches of various sizes, vices, bench grinder, belt/disk sander (wood and aluminum don't agree with benchtop grinders in general). Probably some tape measures and a few more pairs of calipers. A couple of vices are good; if you're getting a drill press, get a 2-axis vice that you can mount to it and you get better accuracy. Oh, and right: Center punch (used with a hammer to make sure holes don't drift when you start drilling).

A good solid chop saw can probably do most of the functions of a miter saw and table saw (and to some extent a horizontal bandsaw); if you get one where the blade can slide in and out with respect to the pivot point, you get some limited table saw ability as well.

The larger tools like a lathe, mill, or 3-in-1 combo are going to be a little trickier to deal with. If you don't get a desktop/benchtop unit, you could be sacrificing a lot of floor space and you'll definitely need some funding or a donated unit and tools.

For storage, use the KOP totes, and get some similar ones. Label. Stick to what's on the labels. Use to store robot parts, motors, wheels, motion components, pneumatics, etc. Repeat with a multi-drawer toolbox, ideally rolling, with tools inside.


There is one tool that I don't see on your list that could be very useful, if light duty. That is a 3D printer. There are some desktop models in the $2K range; they build plastic parts. If you can do CAD, they can make life a lot easier on smaller parts--and they can do both round and squareish parts. The BeachBots put some parts made by one we got from http://thefutureis3d.com/ on their robot last year, and those parts ain't failed yet. (Also note that this is something that could go into the classroom portion--it doesn't spit chips everywhere.)

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

This is especially important if you're sharing space with a classroom (we currently do) - lock up anything that you don't want walking away. Try to commandeer a locker (or a few) in the hallway if you have them available near your room for storage too.

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

I like Eric's approach, he seems to have it covered pretty well.

Your list includes a lot of stuff that is nice to have but definitely not necessary.

Having several work tables, at least two with a vise attached, is a good idea, if you have room for them. Also make sure you have room to play with (test drive) the robot, without having to go too far from your workshop.

I think if you present a relatively modest list the odds are better that someone will step up and help you. If you come right out asking for $100k of equipment, you might not get too far.

After a drill press and a vertical band saw, I'd be looking for a lathe.

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

Ask local businesses and families if they have an old vertical bandsaw or drill press you can buy or they would donate. Search craigslist for good deals. If not, you can get a small Ryobi 9" bandsaw. Make sure you get a good quality metal cutting blade to go with it.

If you are a young team on a small budget, don't be afraid of starting out with some Harbor Freight hand tools, Northern Tools. For power tools, a higher quality is recommended for safety and reliability. Don't go thinking you need the best of the best right away either. If you have a limited budget, splurge a bit on something like a good chop saw and power drills which will last you a long time. Slowly, you'll build up a really solid arsenal of tools. If you do have the money, however, get good quality products that will last a long time and be safe. Good drill bit sets always help too.

A personal favorite of mine - right angle drill with carbide drill bits. Soooo helpful sometimes.

For some good deals - check out Tool Barn.com

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

The list is specifically for one confirmed sponsor (since I do not know their price range), and then will act as our team's general tool wishlist. If another sponsor comes up saying they have $X to help us purchase a tool, I will definitely only ask for items within their range.

Last season, we had the long hallway right outside our room as our test space.

In terms of priorities, this is what I have generalized from the above posts, if anyone has any comments on priorities or specific model suggestions, please do not hesitate to comment. Anything with a 1 is a definite purchase, especially if it is one of the lower priced tools.

1) many more drills (at least one right-angle w/ carbide bits)
1) more hammers
1) more wrenches (allens with handles, ratcheting, sockets)
1) any tools that will help in getting accurate measurements (what else besides calipers?)
1) many vises, mounted on sturdy work tables
2) drill press
2.1) arbor press (a reasonably priced one)
3) chop saw (miter saw + table saw functions)
3) band saw (horizontal or vertical?)
3) miter saw (maybe compound?)
3) table saw
4) bench grinder
4) disc/belt sander
5) lathe
5.1) mill
5.2) combo setups of any of the above
6) reciprocating saw
7) welding equipment? (only if we have members learn)

I've heard of cold saw, but I don't know if that is a different saw type or just a different type of blade.

Someone suggested an 82 tooth carbide blade for cutting Aluminum up to 4in, what tool is this on?

To Eric, we do have a large selection of various sized center punches, we just have to train members how to correctly utilize them. :rolleyes: Last year, we had people banging on them like they were nails, causing the punches to hop around and leaving inaccurate imprints. I'll also have to bring the 3D printer up with our mentors, seems like a great idea. The storage also brings up another question, we really are unsure how to pack things for competition. Should we buy/build storage planning to transport/ship them to competitions? Or have a separate set of competition hand tools?

Sarah, we will always have to keep security in mind. No one can afford to have anything walking off. It's a welcome reminder no one can hear too much of.

Akash, I'll keep Craigslist, the local paper, Tool Barn, and Harbor Freight all in mind. Your comments on drill bits actually brings up another question. Should we be going for solid carbide or just carbide tipped? And I've heard something about a stepped bit, is that what we need for drilling aluminum? Any other drill bit types we might want in handy? We also worked with wood and plastic this year, and all this work was done on one set of bits.

Thanks for the help so far guys!

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

This isn't necessary at all, I was just stating one of my favorite power tools.

As for carbide bits - we really only keep 1 or 2 around, and those were for cleanly drilling through rivets quickly. They aren't necessary either.

Recommended item - set of hole saws.

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

When you suggested the right-angle drill, it was a "that would've been helpful" moment. I can't tell you how many times I was personally looking to drill a hole only to find out our drill didn't fit in the space.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hole saws are to cut bigger holes? What material would you suggest if we mainly work on aluminum?

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

Shop Tools,

Here is what I would recommend:
Buy a tool box with several drawers
Buy a good mechanics set with both metric and SAE style wrenches which includes wrenches, rachets, and sockets.
Buy Allen Wrenches, metric and English.
Buy SAE hardware from #2 to 5/16" up to 2 1/2 inches
Specalize in 1/4 -20 either Grade 5 or Grade 8 -- Bolt Depot
It is unavoidable that some hardware will be metric.
Buy one vice with at least 6" expansion and 4" jaws.
Buy at least 6 Quick Clamps 12"
Buy a least 4 Bar Clamps with about a 18" opening.
A Drill pres will be about $350 to $500
Belt Sander is between $99 and $200.
The Stout Pro 200 is a good Band Saw
Digital Measuring Devices- Verniers about 2 is needed
Tape Measures about two or three are needed
Scribe to mark measurements before drilling or cutting
Crimpers and Strippers for Electrical

These are few things I can think of that have worked for us. We are still building our shop.

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

For drills, Makitas are the best I've used, and they will put up with some serious abuse. Dewalts are good too.
For wrenches, now is a great time to think about what style of fastener you like. I love SHCS, so I would buy based on that. You probably won't need a whole lot of torx keys or allen keys if you like hex head bolts though.

Calipers, tape measures, and rulers are all I can think of that you would need. (for now). Micrometers and all that good stuff is well beyond what most teams will ever need.

As far as big tools go, I would say forget about the chop saw, miter saw, table saw, bench grinder, welding equipment, or any combo mill-lathe type tools for now. A band saw will take you pretty far, and the other tools are nice to have, but definitely not essential. A lathe is pretty good to have. If you can, I would spring for an old bridgeport instead of a drill press. Cost is probably pretty prohibitive though.

EDIT: I should probably make it clear that I've never heard anything good about combo mill/lathe machines and I absolutely wouldn't buy one.

Other important stuff in no particular order:
A decent sized tool box that you can take to competition (small enough for 2 people to carry)
Collapsible shelving units for your pit
Irwin quick clamps
A big box of fasteners
Complete set of drill bits
Rivets and rivet gun
Electrical tools (whatever those are...)
Air compressor

It sounds like you're well on your way to having a better equipped shop than anything at my university.

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

It might be too much for most teams to buy one, but I'd like to point out that a lot of local community colleges have one, often much larger and more expensive higher-quality ones. Our local CC has one which we will hopefully have access to this year, and it's far higher quality than what we could buy on our own.

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

Just one other thing I just thought of...

do you have a local technical school near you? You might be able to partner with them and they might be willing to help you guys out with machining of parts and welding. This is where you might also find access to a nice printer or computers.

F22Rapture bringing up community colleges made me think about it.

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

A great off-season activity is to build your own. http://www.reprap.org/wiki/RepRap We're in the process of building our 2nd. It costs about $600 to build one from scratch using linear bearings. The one we have draws a crowd at events. Once you have one, you can use it to print parts for more.

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

There's a pretty nice 3d printer in our school's Engineering classroom...we've had Engineering students on the robot team for a few years...and we have yet to figure out a robot part that we could print with it. I would look at other things to spend money on.

It sounds like you need put in some "shop class" time before you get too far along buying tools. Knowing how to use them is vital.

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

Might be a bit more than that--I was trying to come up with a number for how much a Mendel Basic (which is a RepRap printer) would cost if the plastic parts are already built, and came up with about $1K for everything. Admittedly, I didn't shop around much--the site I linked before, if you click on the "Store" tab, has almost all of the kit parts/electronics. The cost comes down if you find more local/cheaper sources. (The other thing about that site: The customer service is outstanding.) They ship a full-up printer, verified to work and fully assembled, for about $2000, so if a sponsor is funding it, it isn't a whole big chunk of budget.


The storage thing is something that you'll have to decide, but what I would do is be able to bring as much of the stuff as you can. That means portable toolboxes, rolling or not, that you can take out of the shop and stick in a vehicle. One set of tools probably isn't going to be enough at the competition. Bring 3. That's also where the KOP bins come in; they stack nicely under a table. When I was on a college engineering competition team, about the only thing from the shop we didn't take to competition was the workbench--we brought folding tables in the trailer instead. Figured if we didn't need it, someone else did.

Gray, I think you've got it reversed. I know of teams who've gone years with a miter/chop combo saw and no vertical bandsaw--about the only thing it can't do is turning cuts. That's why I put a Dremel (OP, take note--I'd put that at a 1 and it's fairly cheap) on the list, as it's a highly versatile tool that can help with making turning cuts. The Bridgeport instead of a drill press--Sorry, but a used Bridgeport can run in the $2500-$5000 range and that's without tooling. A 2-axis vice for a drill press can give some mill functionality; you just have to go slower when cutting a slot. And like I said, without knowing how much space they've got available, I'm willing to bet that a mill will take up an awful lot of it.

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

Saw this and had to comment: Skyhook's intake roller had a pair of hubs that came off a 3D printer, complete with the "standard" 6-hole bolt pattern. And the box containing Skyhook's IMU came off the same printer. And at that point, we'd had the printer about a month, maybe 2. When I was in college, we got some plugs for a robot's frame built on their high-quality one.

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

If you're stuck for space and/or cash, you might consider a combo mill/lathe/drill. It won't do any of these tasks as well as the individual tools might, and it's small (but so, relatively, are the robots), but it wouldn't take up too much space and would at least provide you these capabilities at a lower cost than the individual machines.

I think that there are other teams who use one of these as (one of?) their primary machine.

A quick google search ("combo lathe mill") will show you a number. From what I've read, there's basically a price/quality relationship. The more you pay the better the tool, so, if you go this route, buy the best you can afford.

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

If you're looking for larger machines, try industrial auctions. We picked up a Bridgeport in good condition for ~$750 including vice and a set of R8 collets. Just watch your voltages as many industrial machines are 600V. To meet school regualtions, we have to install a magnetic swtich as well and fix up the guarding.

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

We have a used industrial machine store near us and got ourselves a Bridgeport for about that much, but we may be looking into converting it to cnc for about $4,000

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

A low cost metal bending brake plus an inexpensive shear would be worth considering if you have a table to mount them on. Bent sheet parts are useful in lots of places. You can get both at Harbor Freight for a combined $200.

H u

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

The Illuminations guide we posted a while go has a nice tool list in the appendix.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/papers/2623

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

I'm not trying to sound too much like an adult here, but has any of this been cleared with the school's administration or custodial departments? Just on my teaching experience alone I can tell you that it isn't a good idea to surprise either group. If you make one or the other angry you might end up finding a new Place to work whether you want to or not.

Space is another concern with big machines, I don't know what physics labs look like where you are, but from the ones at my school I can tell you that one Bridgeport with safety clearance will use up the full lab area. Also, does the teacher still have to teach in this room? In moSt states,there are regulations on what can be in a particular room based on the certified staff present. If you don't have a certified teache in industrial technology present a lot of school's won't have the insurance to cover potential injuries.

I'm not trying to shut you down on any big plans, but it always a shame to get everything put together and organized and then have to take it all down. I was offered a rediculous Haas CNC mill the other day on donation and had to turn it down because we don't have the floorspace and the maintenance department won't let us run electrical to where we do have space. Sometime things don't work out, and it is definately better to know ahead of time when they won't.

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

After asking around, I believe we have the sponsor I have mentioned above, as well as a $2000 grant from our school's PTSA for tools. After subtracting the 2013 registration fee and our rainy day fund from last year's surplus, I believe we have around $5k-$7.5k to spend on tools.

edit:

That is an excellent reminder, I know our teacher has brought it up with the administration, but all the other points will have to be confirmed. The administration is really flexible and supportive, they have really worked with us so far, so hopefully there isn't much other problems.

I love all the other suggestions, I will have to research specific brands of tools and models. If anyone has a specific model that their team is using and it works great, PLEASE let me know. That is probably the biggest problem I have at the moment, finding a specific product that we know will do what we want/need, and last us at least a few seasons.

Edit x2:

After more research, I have something to clarify. Am I wrong in saying a chop saw is a saw that cuts in a vertical plane, while a mitre saw is a type/variation of chop saw that allows you to also get angles on the cut? This is probably going to be one of the tools we need more urgently, because last year we handled all cuts (wood, metal, plastic) using either a circular saw, jig saw, or hack saws. I've been looking at a Makita LS1216L with goes for $600, which is also available with a stand. It is a sliding dual beveled compound model. Anyone have experience with this, or possibly a cheaper brand/model? I've yet to check local classified to see if there are any good deals around.

Revised Listing (all none tool suggestions have been taken down, most are generic and will be bought regardless):
1) many more drills (at least one right-angle w/ carbide bits, Makitas + DeWalts)
1) more hammers
1) more wrenches (allens with handles, ratcheting, sockets)
1) any tools that will help in getting accurate measurements (what else besides calipers?)
1) many vises, mounted on sturdy work tables (at least 6" expansion and 4" jaws)
1) more clamps (6 Quick Clamps 12", 4 Bar Clamps 18" opening)
1) dremel
2) drill press ($350 - 500, maybe spring for a Bridgeport mill, but a 2-axis vise can offer same capability)
2) miter saw (compound, sliding, single/dual beveled)
2.1) arbor press (a reasonably priced one)
3) band saw (horizontal or vertical? - Stout Pro 200)
3) bench grinder
3) disc/belt sander ($100-200)
4) lathe
4) mill (Bridgeport)
4.1) combo machine (lathe/mill/drill press - have not heard good things though)
5) reciprocating saw
6) welding equipment? (only if we have members learn)

We have contacted our local CC as well as a local technical high school. With City College of San Francisco, we actually went to a meeting of their robotics club in their workshop once, but as far as I know, they could not/did not offer their tools or services to us. The technical high school did not want to join forces with us, and were not willing to give us access to their machine shop either.

It does seem plenty useful. Are there manual and electric types of it? What does the shear do?

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

You're right. Most chop saws these days are miter saws as well. Matter of fact, the one you linked appears to be the general type that I was thinking of; I have experience with a DeWalt one (I think it was a DeWalt--it was yellow!). If you use them right, they can do a pretty good job of pretending to be a table saw. Make sure to get multiple blades--wood, aluminum, and steel cut differently--and some clamps/holders.

For the bandsaw question, a sliding miter saw will also do a pretty good job of imitating a horizontal bandsaw, at least on smaller and thinner parts. Start with a vertical bandsaw, probably a benchtop model or a smaller floor model.

The other thing that I keep forgetting: If you get a tool that you don't know how to use, before you use it, find someone who does (like the CC) to come in and show you. Saves time, saves frustration, probably saves eyes and fingers.

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

Bending brakes are manual. I imagine that powered ones exist, but it's really easy to bend thin stuff by hand.

Shear = cut. Search for "throatless shear" on Harbor Freight to see what we just bought. It seems to work nicely for small stuff.

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

Agreed. A tool you don't know how to use is functionally useless.

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

At best. Just as often it's a liability to your work or your safety.

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

Revised Listing (all none tool suggestions have been taken down, most are generic and will be bought regardless):
1) many more drills (at least one right-angle w/ carbide bits, Makitas + DeWalts) - The makita drill/impact driver combo set is a nice set of tools
1) more hammers - specify types, ball peen, mallets????
1) more wrenches (allens with handles, ratcheting, sockets) - do you want metric or standard? Also, instead of buying a full set of wrenches, determine what size fasteners you are using and buy 5-10 wrenches separately in that size so you have a good supply - then buy 1 complete set of wrenches for when you come across that odd fastener.
1) any tools that will help in getting accurate measurements (what else besides calipers?) - Check out harbor freight, their electronic calipers go on sale for $9.99 often, there's a store in Newark and one in Santa Clara
1) many vises, mounted on sturdy work tables (at least 6" expansion and 4" jaws) - buy a good vise if you can afford it like a wilton - Alan steel in Redwood City has some nice Jet vises that are made in taiwan for good prices - stay away from the cheap vises at home depot/etc...
1) more clamps (6 Quick Clamps 12", 4 Bar Clamps 18" opening) - harbor freight - on sale often - you will also want some C-clamps as well
1) dremel - the definition of a dremel:" a tool that converts electricity to vibration" - do yourself a favor and buy a proxon instead, close to the same price and uses the same tools but is much higher quality and will last much longer.
2) drill press ($350 - 500, maybe spring for a Bridgeport mill, but a 2-axis vise can offer same capability) - Couple of options here, if you have the space go for a bridgeport, there's a business closing in redwood city that is selling a couple of mills on Thur/Friday this week (search craigslist for Mill and you will see the ad) keep in mind most of these machines require 3-phase power or an adapter, also the size etc.... you might be better off with a table top machine. For this there are a couple of options, one is a TAIG mill (around $1,000) that can easily be converted latter to CNC for another $1,000. Another good choice is the B20 mill from Grizzly, also convertible to CNC but more around $4K for this option - also factor about $2K for tooling in addition to the mill price
2) miter saw (compound, sliding, single/dual beveled) - search craigslist - you likely don't need a sliding saw so look for a good used one and buy a new carbide tipped blade
2.1) arbor press (a reasonably priced one) - don't bother, purchase a 20ton press from harbor freight - currently on sale
3) band saw (horizontal or vertical? - Stout Pro 200) - make sure the saw you buy is a metal cutting saw, if it's for wood, then you will need to add a gearbox to slow down the blade the to the right speeds. I wouldn't spend the money on the stout - if anything get a milwaukee portaband bandsaw and a table mount from swag offroad.
3) bench grinder - buy the disc/belt sander below first -
3) disc/belt sander ($100-200) - search c-list for a used machine with a 1/2 to 3/4 hp motor, also that sale I mentioned above in RWC has a couple listed -
4) lathe - We have a lathe we purchased from littlemachine shop, it's a nice table top unit that we mounted to a rolling cart, so far we have been able to make everything we need on this machine -
4) mill (Bridgeport) - see above
4.1) combo machine (lathe/mill/drill press - have not heard good things though) - agreed, these machines are a compromise
5) reciprocating saw -
6) welding equipment? (only if we have members learn) Our team has a 110 welder that we weld our aluminum frame with. I wouldn't recommend this as a way to go, if you can go TIG, however, I would push for alternative construction methods such as riveting, sheet metal construction if I were starting from scratch.

Lastly, to store all of these tools, you should get a rolling tool cabinet, again, I would recommend the 44" cabinet from Harbor freight

http://www.harborfreight.com/44-13-d...net-68784.html

you can find coupons on line for $349.00 for this cabinet to save even more money.

If you have any other questions or want some additional information send me a PM and we can talk, if you want to come see our tooling, we meet on Wed/Fridays and Saturdays getting ready for cal games.

Kelly
Mentor 766 MA Bears

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

Many products from RIGID come with lifetime warranty on everything including batteries....
I'm not sure if this has been added but a good tap and die set is something great to have around

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

There should be a number of threads out there with a lot of the information you're looking for. I'm not sure if they have information on specific models of tools though.

3 in 1 machines are junk. Avoid them like the plague. You're basically throwing money out that you could save for quality machinery.

I would not purchase corded drills. The technology is such in cordless drills that there is no reason to purchase corded. We got rid of a corded drill we had because it had so much torque it was unsafe for inexperienced users.

You really don't need a sliding miter saw. We have this. $200 and it works great. High quality. Throw a nice carbide tipped blade on there and you can easily cut aluminum tube (absolutely do NOT cut solid/ferrous metal with any miter saw).

We purchased one of those 20 ton presses like mentioned earlier, used it for a year, and then gave it away. It's super inconvenient due to the limited travel of the bottle jack, as well as slop in the ram because of the construction method.

I would see if you can get the sponsor to just grant you the money, as opposed to them purchasing tools off a list. It makes more sense to add tools as you discover you need them, instead of trying to cover everything up front. Inevitably you will end up with a lot of tools you rarely/never use if you do the latter.

As soon as you cover your basic tool needs and are looking for machine tools I would purchase a lathe.

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

Have you considered a second drill bit set and a drill bit sharpener? They may seem unnecessary but with drill bits many students tend to break them and leave them laying around. Leave one out and one kind of hidden away for that moment when you need that one size bit.

Furthermore with many tools being used bits tend to get dull and there becomes a collective pile of dull drill bits which tends not to be to fun to deal with.

These aren't necessarily but useful none the less.

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

That's a generous offer that I'd love to take you up on, but we probably won't be able to make it out anytime soon. We are also going to be at CalGames, we'll see you there. I love all the info, if I have any other questions I know who to ask for an answer! One things, regarding cutting tools, is there any one of the tools we could purchase that could perform essentially the same as other tools? Like EricH said on the previous page, a sliding miter saw can perform some of the bandsaw functions? It would not only save us space but time having to train members on only one tool vs two.

With any new tools, we will get experienced mentors or ask other teams to come out and teach us, or at least myself. It is my responsibility to see that all the tools are properly operated, so I will be willing to pass on the training. Having another student lose their fingers would be worse for me then losing one of my own!

The only problem we have with Craigslist and classifieds is the ads go up quickly, and require items to be picked up, sometimes quite far away. With out limited number of mentors, we can't really go anywhere on short notice. Plus, it's easier to point at a new product for a sponsor to purchas. We do not know if they are willing to provide direct funding yet.

Jackson and rondinol, good info. Will be kept in mind!

Thanks Cory, you have some really informational points! I've been reading that Makitas have the most accurate cuts in miter saws, but it seems you do think the Rigid works great. When cutting with the miter, what kind of clamps or other tools do you use to hold the material down? Do you have it on a dedicated stand, or some kind of table/bench/counter?

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

According to google maps, San Francisco State University is very close to your high school, as is the City College of San Francisco. Those two will probably end up being two of the best resources you could possible establish in terms of machining capabilities and mentoring. Both are within two miles of Lowell HS.

Be sure to check both out very soon.

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

I have no experience with Makita saws, so I cannot recommend it over a Makita, but our experience with Ridgid products in general has been very good.

In principle I am against paying $600 for a sliding compound miter saw. It's just not that much more useful than a regular miter saw, for FRC purposes. If you were framing up a house every day of the year and required the versatility and the durability of a professional grade tool it would be the right choice...but that isn't what we're doing in FRC.

I don't really see one as a replacement for a bandsaw or table saw. You can cut a 15"x15" square with a 12" sliding miter saw. I guess that's better than if it wasn't sliding, but it's nowhere near a real table saw and I'm not sure in what way it would be equivalent to a vertical bandsaw, as they are primarily used for contouring.

You should be able to find a fairly decent vertical bandsaw for a couple hundred dollars. With good blades and proper care it should cut aluminum up to 1/4" thick with no problem (inevitably people will cut steel with it, or shove aluminum through at about a zillion miles an hour and ruin your brand new blades though).


We use the clamp that came with the saw. We have a beat up folding table that we will often bolt the saw to and then wood screw down a stop to ensure repeatable length cuts for tubing that gets welded without being further processed on the mill. Otherwise we just use it on the ground.

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

if you are on a tight budget, and you could only get like one or two machines i would go for a Drill press, so that your holes are more accuretly and drilling goes quicker and also a verticle band saw as for our team it saves us much time to just turn on the bandsaw cut a streight line or an acurretly cut angle then to use a hack saw.

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

I think you need to quantify your need. For instance, "many more drills" could mean two or twenty. Look at how many sub-teams will be working on the robot and how many will be required to use the tool.


What productive capacity can the tools be used for?

I honestly don't believe in welding for FRC robot frames anymore and I find it a risk for students that is unnecessary (PPE, ventilation, sunburn). If this is a construction method, I feel it's best to outsource to a properly trained professional. I'll caveat that with the understanding being there are vo-tech students which may be able to accomplish this task as the exception.

Judging by what you've laid out, I would suggest taking your list and narrowing it down based on the importance of the tool, the number of tasks it can be use used for, and the quantity/cost associated. For example, a regular cordless drill can be used for 5 tasks in the build vs. a specialty tool that performs the same basic function, but isn't required (e.g. right angle drill). This would rate the cordless drill higher than a right angle drill.

If you do get cordless tools, look at the brand and the tools available. Stick with one brand to save on battery charger footprint, as well as allow for battery interchangeability.

My personal recommendation for a small-medium team (20-30):

Tools requiring only hands:

1. Auto-centering punch (qty 2) $3 each at Harbor Freight
2. 14.4V Drill - you don't need 18V and the lower weight will be nice over time (qty 3) + drill bits in common sizes (clearance and taps for standard hardware)
3. Ball-peen hammer (qty 2)
4. Straight Edge/T-square (qty 2)
5. Digital 6" Calipers (qty 3) ~$15 each Amazon/HF (Also buy a 100pk of batteries for ~$8 from Amazon, the LR44 die very quickly in the HF units)
6. Vise Grips (qty 4-6)
7. Hack Saw (qty 2)
8. Allen Set (usually cheaper in the set) (qty 3)
9. Socket Set (personal preference; cheaper in set)
10. Additional sockets and wrenches in common sizes for your robot (for#6, #8, #10, 1/4" hardware)

Shop tools requiring facility resources:

1. Drill press
2. Band saw
3. Press break
4. Sheet metal shear
5. Arbor press (bushings and keyways) NOTE: keyway broach sets are expensive.
6. Belt sander
7. Disc grinder
8. HF 7x12 lathe (#93799)

I highly recommend the Harbor Freight tool carts (with the associated high reviews). They are high quality and very durable.

I'm absolutely certain I didn't get everything, but hopefully you find my post a little useful.

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

Seeing as how my team's bandsaw and drillpress were reported stolen today...


Invest in securing your belongings :)

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

Slight derailment...how do you steal a bandsaw and drillpress?

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

Some crook breaks in when nobody is around and he and a buddy haul it away in a generic white panel van. Since a stolen saw and a used saw look the same, it's an easy fence on their part.

I've heard of robots gettign stolen for scrap metal even... Please teams, do secure your stuff!

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

A drywall square is also handy for dealing with plywood or sheet plastic in the sizes you may end up working with.

We picked up a couple things from Grizzly and have been happy with the two items below thus far this offseason.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/6-Vise-Brake/H3245
http://www.grizzly.com/products/30-M...y-Bender/G9952

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

Some things you need to look at before blowing a bunch of money on tools is what do you have to work with, and where do you feel you're currently falling short?

First is space. How much space do you have to work with that you can permanently setup with your tools/machines/workbenches? If you have very little, you'll want to stick with small hand tools and a locking tool box with some cordless drills, and a nice bench vice(actually just get a nice bench vice, they're always good).

Secondly what mentor support do you have? I see you're looking at welding equipment, mill, lathe etc. These tools are great, can expand your capacity, and can be very safe when used properly. When used incorrectly things can go very bad very quick. If you don't have at least one mentor(better 2+) who plan to stick around and help teach and supervise the use of these machines then getting them will be a Very Bad Idea(tm).

Third Power, small bench-top machines can run off standard 15A 120V outlets. Larger lathes and mills will often require 240V, triple phase power, and sometimes even higher voltages. Part of why these machines sell for around the cost of the bench-top hobby equipment is because a hobbyist cant as easily support their power requirements. Welders can be particularly challenging as well. Even ones that run on 120V can draw a lot of current and pop breakers if there's other stuff on that circuit(do you really know the circuit layout at your school?). I can promise you having to call maintenance to reset breakers for you is not going to win you friends.

Finally when looking at a Mill and Lathe in particular do not forget the cost of tooling. To get well tooled and be able to start working with these machines will cost you AT LEAST what you spent on the machine in accessory tooling.


If I were starting with nothing, and had mentors with only some general knowledge of tools here's the order I would spend my money:

Tool box: something like this: http://www.grizzly.com/outlet/6-Draw...l-Chest/T10140

Mechanics Tool Set: craftsmen is a good middle of the road brand, you want full metric and SAE wrenches ratchets and sockets as well as a good assortment of screw drivers. Buy extras in the sizes you use most.

Hex key sets: Again I reccomend craftsmen for mid range, go for snapon/mac if you can afford it. Again you want both SAE and metric with extras in your most used sizes.

Cordless Drill: There's a lot out there that's great, I think DeWalt makes some nice lithium battery drills that most folks I know with them love. If you buy multiple buy the same so you can buy spare batteries most efficiently.

Full Drill Set in metric or SAE, both if you can afford it. These are usually ~100 dollars and have on of everything up to about a half inch dia.

Center Punch

Measuring tools: Big to small: some good length measuring tapes, a couple yard sticks, some metal ~ 1ft rulers, I also find some small 6 inch rulers useful, 6 inch digital or dial calipers(if you're a glutton for punishment verniers).

Combo square: http://www.grizzly.com/products/Econ...n-Square/G8072

Hack Saws and a variety of blade types

Assortment of Files: lots and lots all different shapes and sizes you can never have too many.

Dremel or similar tool. There's really no limit on what you can make a dremel tool do.

Pliers: standard, vice grips, needle nose

Hammers: Ball peen in large and small sizes, rubber head mallet, plastic face, or even better a deadblow hammer.

Good wire strippers: not just the cheapest you can get, the ones that pull the wire apart automatically can be quite nice.

Good crimp tool: Again you want something that's not going to leave you stranded on the field. Every years teams are bit by mysterious electrical problems traced back to bad crimps.

Digital Multi-Meter: Now that you've wired it up, it helps to be able to test it. Cheapo units will do, but go for a higher end unit if you can afford it.

Pop Rivet Gun: nice and light fastener setup, be sure to research when and how to use these to maximize their potential, I believe there's a lot of literature on the topic here on CD.

Soldering Station: I'm partial to Weller, but you'll want something you can control the temperature and get a good solid solder joint

Workbench: Something sturdy

Workbench mounted vice: Biggest and strongest you can find. Ideally this thing should be able to laugh at a jackhammer.

Sawzall: can be a poor man's replacement to a bandsaw for chopping through stock if you don't have the space. Really useful when you need to cut stuff off the bot without disassembling.

Jigsaw: Really great multipurpose tool for cutting lines or shapes in sheets of material.

Drill Press: Radials are nice, you'll want something that can go pretty slow when needed: floor or bench model: http://www.grizzly.com/products/5-Sp...ll-Press/G7946 http://www.grizzly.com/products/5-Sp...ll-Press/G7945

Drill Press Vice: There's a bunch of different designs pick what you like.

Drill Press XY Table: http://www.grizzly.com/products/6-x-...de-Table/G8750 I bought this one for my team last year, and it can make precision drilling a dream compared to a hand drill.

Tap and Die Set: You can go for both SAE and metric, or just pick which you want to use, and buy the other piecemeal as needed.

Bandsaw: http://www.grizzly.com/products/4-x-...-Bandsaw/G0622 Cutting through huge slabs of metal with a hacksaw is no fun, make life a bit easier on yourself.


Don't forget to buy blades and bits for many of the things listed here. Getting well outfitted with a good base of tools can be more important than playing with the more exotic tools like CNC, Lathes, Mills, welders 3D printers ETC.

If you have all of the stuff above, and still have the proper facility, and mentor support begin looking into more exotic tooling.

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

I've still been reading, and many points I completely agree with. After discussing with our teacher mentor, we have decided to choose one or more of the following: drill press, band saw, and/or miter saw/chop saw. We have just met a new mentor who recently moved into the area that is experienced with all types of part manufacturing, including milling. Hopefully he'll be able to stick around and teach us. We will have sufficient space for these tools without having to worry about the schools wiring. All the other smaller suggestions, if mentioned, will probably be budgeted for. We have the storage space and would rather have things handy when we need it instead of running out at 9pm on the second to last day of build season to pickup something trivial.

I am personally still considering security options, together with our lead mentor. One of our considerations is installing a locking accordion door/wall to divide the classroom and workshop (possibly with a door on a panel. Does anyone know a more specific name for something like this? And how much it would run us? I think we do have admin approval for this. Our school's gym has a much larger version of this, which is a floor to ceiling wall made of several panels that folds into an accordion and slides out to form a complete wall. Ours doesn't have to powered.

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

Be careful that you don't interfere with the room's fire suppression sprinkler system or with lighting. It might be easier and would definitely be cheaper to build a wood or steel-framed partition wall and cover all or the upper part of it with chain link fencing fastened on with poultry staples. (The lower part could be drywall. Simple to build and easily removed at a later date. It also gives more wall space for shelving etc. If you can't find used steel shelving Ikea's Ivar (http://www.ikea.com/ca/en/search/?query=ivar+shelving makes not bad wood shelving. Covering the shelves with masonite prevents small stuff from falling through the gaps. A 1/2 x 3/4 strip across the back prevents things from falling off the back.

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

I suggest having the teacher talking to the building administration regarding this issue so that it goes through all the appropriate channels within the school division. Between the administration and any facilities personnel involved a better solution may present itself. Think of this as an opportunity to spread the word about your team.

Re: Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?
 

Hi Al
lt's been a year or two but the liast is still good.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=85568
have fun!
Geo.