Beginner CNC Mill Comparison
 

I wanted to get a feel for who here on CD has used any of the following mills:

1) http://www.tormach.com/store/index.p...w&ref=PCNC1100

2) http://www.cncmasters.com/index.php?...ical-knee-mill

3) http://www.smithy.com/cnc/1240-mill/pricing#tab-2

4) http://www.microkinetics.com/express/

These are four we have narrowed down which are within our price range. We looked into used machines as well but I believe the school cannot allow us to do this.

Anyway, I was looking for feedback on any of these. I have been at CNCzone all day so I know that Tormach is favored by far among the three here. The CNC Masters machine only has an automated quill, so this only gives me limited travel, however the length of the bed is tempting.

Are Tormachs manufactured in the US? Does the quality of the machine live up to the hype? How easy is it to learn? Is setting up longer parts in multiple operations easy (drivetrain plates/tubes)?

I haven't seen much about the Smithy.

The MK seems ok but I haven't heard much else about them on CNCZone.

Advice and feedback is much appreciated for someone new to CNC machines.

Re: Beginner CNC Mill Comparison
 

I have used a a 1100 series Tormach quite extensively over the summer to do our new bot, literally every piece was done on the Tormach. The machine ran fine without issues for the most part, some of the TTS stuff is a bit iffy but overall it is a nice machine. Also having the ATC/Power Draw bar option gives it a nice upgrade path.

The Tormach is designed in the USA but is made in China to keep costs down. The Mach 3 control software is really easy to learn/use [imo] and doing rails and stuff on the machine was not an issue. The most limiting factor is probably the bed size, compared to say a Bridgeport that can do an entire rail in one go.

I am sure RC/Cory could chip in more info. ;)

Edit: Just remembered these guys, heard good things about them. http://www.ihcnc.com/pages/cnc-mill.php

Re: Beginner CNC Mill Comparison
 

Here's another thread from 07 discussing these same brands...
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=57937

Re: Beginner CNC Mill Comparison
 

I know one team that has a Tormach. They had a serious flaw in the casting and grinding of their first one, but the replacement they've told me has been good and they've used it quite extensively.

If you're able to afford it, look into HAAS. There's no comparison. The Tormach is fine, but the HAAS is just so much more of a machine. If there is any possible way you can save up or get other funding to afford something like a HAAS, that's the route I would go.

None of those machines you linked look bad. The MikroKinetics one has a slower spindle speed though, that will be a limiting factor in how fast you cut (along with the lesser rigidity of the machine). I'd opt for one that will let you do flood coolant. If you do go with the Tormach, can you afford the Automatic Tool Changer for it, or at least the power drawbar?

Re: Beginner CNC Mill Comparison
 

We just got a Tormach 1100 this summer - I haven't had a ton of time to run parts on it, but it's pretty capable for the work we're throwing at it. Holds around 0.001-0.0005 in circular interpolation with not much effort - so press-fit bearings are easy. That's about as precise as we need it to be. It's certainly not near the class of a Haas, but it's not in that price range either. For milling mainly aluminum and plastics (polycarb/delrin/hdpe/uhmw), it's well suited. It's not going to be driving a 4" face mill, but at reasonable speeds/MRR's, I've been happy with it.

Anything bigger than the machine travels we can farm out to sponsor CNC/waterjet, but it will let us do the majority of our smaller work in house, and it lets our PLTW classes have a better machine to work with.

You're welcome to come by and check the machine out anytime, just shoot me a PM.

Re: Beginner CNC Mill Comparison
 

I've been using a pcnc 1100 daily at work for about 8 months now. I use it primarily in combination with a 4th axis table. Because of volume constraints caused by the 4th axis, I don't have the ATC, but am budgeting for the power drawbar.

I've been very pleased. The machine and TTS stuff have been trouble free, although I've found the packaged CAM software, Sprutcam, to be pretty poor. It generates tool paths alright, but it's been buggy and difficult to learn. There are just better options. The new version may be a step up, but it'd be hard to believe. To Tormachs credit, they've published a lot of helpful tutorials for sprutcam, which is interesting since it isn't really a Tormach product.

If you do go with the Tormach, spend the extra money on the nice machine stand with a coolant tank and chip guards. It's completely worth it. I'd also rank one of the 'machine arms', that will hold onto a monitor and keyboard tray to be a must have. The TTS stuff is expensive but works as advertised and worthwhile.

Re: Beginner CNC Mill Comparison
 

Let me just add on that even ten $100,000 mills with five axis and automatic tool changers are useless without a couple of extra critical pieces. First, you have to have a few students who can actually run the thing. If you only trust one mentor to run it, they will end up spending all their time watching the mill run. This is often a poor use of their time. Make sure that you trust a few students to do the watching, and let the mentor worry about potentially more important things. Also, students who are trained on the machine and know it's capabilities make much better mechanical designers.

Second, get good CAM software. I find that the CAD to G-Code step often takes much longer than the G-Code to cut metal phase. We have BobCAD v24, and I really wouldn't recommend it. It's ostensibly a 3d package, but is terribly unintuitive to use. I've had to learn how to use it about four times, because it's so hard to remember how to use it. I've heard good reviews of MasterCAM and Mach 3, but never had a chance to use them. No matter what CAM software you choose, have multiple students be able to crank out G-Code.

In terms of actual machines, we have a small HAAS with an ATC, and it really is as awesome as everyone says. However, it was about $40,000, so it is a sizable chunk of change over what you are looking for. It holds tolerances to about .0001", and has fast spindle and cutting speeds. The user interface is pretty nice too.

Re: Beginner CNC Mill Comparison
 

For another entry level machine choice, take a look at the Taig mill. You can start off with this and eventually upgrade to a larger machine and keep the Taig to build additional parts. These machines are impressive for the price, the table travel is comparable to the Tormach, the spindle speed is 2X.

Run it with Mach3 and use Cut 2D for cam.

Re: Beginner CNC Mill Comparison
 

I can believe +-.001. But +-.0001? How on earth are you measuring that and your holding that easily?

1323 (kinda) owns a Tormach and we've spent a ton of money on it. Got it for 25k with everything and then we've probably invested 5-6k on it (All school money, machine was paid for by the Shop Classes). And this is without the ATC which came out after we bought it. Out of all the machines listed on the initial post, its the best to get (besides the HAAS, which is better), but we have mixed feelings about it (more negative that positive). I wish the school would have gotten a smaller HAAS or something different. If your spending ~10-20k of non-team money, go for it. But if your spending team money or 25k plus, don't buy any of those machines. Go with something better or go with a manual with a power draw bar/dro. If you have someone that understands CNC machines, take a look at used machines. You can get some solid deals there.

I'd recommend getting MasterCAM for Solidworks or MasterCAM standalone (harder for kids). We recently tried MasterCAM for Solidworks X6 after disliking the x4 version, its pretty solid. Very inuitive and seriously a whole lot easier to teach kids on. Also allows you to update toolpaths as you rebuild your models/change dimensions.

-RC

Re: Beginner CNC Mill Comparison
 

A Haas has encoders that only resolve to .0001. It's inconceivable that one could actually hold a .0001 tolerance in practice. Too many factors out of your control-humidity, temperature, residual stress in the part, cutting forces, chip evacuation, expansion rate of the machine throughout the day, etc. I highly doubt any FRC team would even have metrology tools (or environment) capable of measuring .0001. Technically to be highly confident in your measurement you would need a tool capable of measuring to .00001. The average micrometer can measure to .0001.

I would consider our Haas to be of slightly lesser quality than others that I have used/heard of and we can usually get within .0003" (as measured on the machine with it's probe...so not at all a proper means of measurement). In reality I would guess .0005 is the tightest tolerance we can hold without babysitting the machine and changing offsets.

Re: Beginner CNC Mill Comparison
 

Thanks for the feedback so far guys. While I was researching, I was already highly biased towards the Tormach machines, so your accounts are no surprise at all.

Cory - are there Haas machines available in the 20-25K range? Any other comparable machines within this range?

I'll get back to you about if it would be team money or school money, but at the moment I'm sure it is school money paying for the machine and we are limited to around 12-13K

Along with the 1100, I was thinking the 4th axis would be the best addition. Anything else you guys would suggest? Possibly a power drawbar as well.

Re: Beginner CNC Mill Comparison
 

If you're getting into the $20k range, it's really worth it to hold out and go the extra mile for the HAAS. A lot of schools like to hear that you're interested in installing industry standard equipment so students develop skills directly transferable to the workplace. This may help up the budget. Also, the school should know that a HAAS machine is a 10+ year purchase. It isn't like it's going to be obsolete or irrelevant in 5 years. And it's going to last. Comparing the cost to something like outfitting a lab with new computers, it's clear which dollars last for a longer time.

A HAAS Mini Mill can be had for just under $30k if you're a school. You can get into a HAAS Toolroom mill (which gives you great travels and workspace) for probably just over $25k, but it has no tool changer (unless you get the more expensive "P" model). I would have a hard time recommending a machine without a tool changer if one is available. It's just too important of an option to pass up if it is available.

For CAM software, you may be interested in HSM Express for Solidworks. It looks very good and is free. One interesting note is that HSMWorks is getting bought out by Autodesk oddly enough. I envision good things to come from this in the next 3 years.

For now, we're enjoying OneCNC XR5 so far. There are many free training videos available and we've only had minor hiccups in the learning curve. Although it's less popular than MasterCAM, it seems every bit as powerful and just as easy to use. It has great simulation graphics. The OneCNC West reseller has been fantastic and the educational pricing can't be beat. Also, once you own it, you own it. No annual fee. Finally, In some sense I like the fact that it's a standalone program.

I'm curious if any teams with CNC mills have used them to run jobs for customers to generate income for the team.

Re: Beginner CNC Mill Comparison
 

We've found the 4th axis we have to be a waste of money. Anything that we'd use it for we farm out to sponsors. We could have upgraded to a machine with 10" more travel, for the cost of the 4th, which would have made life about 10x easier. YMMV.

I'd rather have the TM-1 with no toolchanger for 26k than a Tormach with toolchanger.

There's a lot out there on the used market, but Haas is the only commodity machine I know of that you can get new for that price.

Re: Beginner CNC Mill Comparison
 

Haha, I was JUST looking at the Toolroom mill when you posted.

I'll be sure to pass this onto the team admin. Hopefully saving up for 30K+ is a possibility. I'm sure that for them a larger 1 time investment is better than continuously putting money into a Tormach or any other lower end machine.

Thanks for all the info guys!

Re: Beginner CNC Mill Comparison
 

Big time second the suggestions to make the jump to a HAAS. I've used multiple Tormachs, as well as HAAS's, Mazak's, smaller custom built mills. IMO, the Tormach is not worth the 25K often paid for it. It has a lot of issue's that limit productivity.

The Tormach Tooling System, although it makes tool changes much easier than standard R8 holders/collets, has serious pullout issues. If you use the pneumatic drawbar/ATC your likely going have holder pullout issues on any EM over .250, at reasonable material removal rates. If you use the wrench to tighten the collet, you'll get a little more grip, but it is still an issue.

Another issue is lost step count. Since it is a stepper not servo machine, with no feedback, the controller can lose step counts without the controller knowing. This is a real bummer when the part you spent an hour milling ends up being out of tolerance. Although I haven't had a chance to use a Gen 3 Tormach, unless they significantly up'ed the size of the steppers, or added feedback, it's likely this is still an issue.

Surface finish will also leave a lot to be desired.

Lastly, the spindle motor is somewhat underpowered the machine size. You will often find yourself slowing down due the the spindle struggling.

Although I haven't had a chance to use any of the other machines on list, (CNCMasters, Microkenetics, Smithy), I have used other Smithy machines. They also leave a lot to be desired. Lots.

One other company you may consider if you don't want to make the jump the full Haas VMC, is SYIL. They aren't very well known, and their knowledge of the machines is very limited. I've been to their distribution center, and they pretty much just open the boxes from China and sell it. However, the machines are actually very nice and well priced. You can get most of there machine with linear slides, over the traditional box or dovetail ways. This will keep you maintenance and adjustment time down. The machines cut very well, and although they are still steppers, I haven't had one have an issue with lost steps, and the surface finish is far superior to the Tormachs. To give you an idea of the price, I recently helped a team get an X5 Linear 220v, delivered with lift gate, stand and coolant pump for a smidge over $8000. This machine beats the Tormach at cutting IMO, although its travels are smaller. That being said, if you have to fix something, add features, etc, be prepared to do it yourself. Converting the machine from mach 3 to linux cnc was not trivial due to wiring schematic discrepancies.

TL;DR Be wary of the Tormach's, though they have great service, the price, quality of machine and cuts, leave much to be desired. Really consider making the jump to HAAS VMC, the productivity and quality will be impressive, and you won't find yourself dreaming of a nicer machine. If price is a big issue though, consider a SYIL.

P.S. Beware of the pricing on HAAS machines. The options will add up quick.

Re: Beginner CNC Mill Comparison
 

I use the Tormach sourced 4th axis on my 1100. It works, and for what I do it works very well. However, it has some drawbacks.

For one, it takes up a lot of room in an already small work envelope. I'm making really tiny stuff, so that's not an issue for me, but keep in mind that the 1100 has 18" of X travel to start with, and the 4th gobbles up a bunch of that. In most setups it precludes the use of the ATC. It's also relatively slow; in my work it's usually the limiting factor in feeds/speeds. Set up/take down is a bit of a pain, as it weighs a ton and seeps oil, but you may find you have to do it frequently to make room for 'normal' work. You also have to think a bit about backlash- it's driven by a stepper, and a lot of direction reversals will start to accumulate some positioning error if you aren't careful to keep the backlash adjusted.

On the upside, it is a real deal 4th axis for not a huge amount of money, and you can purchase it any time after the mill. If you have a really good case for using it, go for it, but I doubt it'd be a reasonable return for a FIRST team. I bought it with a specific need and, half a year later or so, it's just starting to really pay for its self.

For school/FIRST use, the power drawbar would be a lot more useful. The ATC even more so. More tool holders and/or tooling is even better then either.

If you haven't already, check out Tormachs paper on the 1100's design decisions. I think they make a credible case for the machines size and capabilities, and it's nice to see a company publish this kind of in depth stuff.
http://www.tormach.com/engineering_pcnc1100.html

Re: Beginner CNC Mill Comparison
 

The ATC on the Tormach seems like a waste - it's pricey compared to the overall cost of the machine, and FIRST teams generally have enough manpower on hand to hire a "student powered toolchanger". For the Haas it makes a lot more sense. The power draw bar on the Tormach is a necessary addition.

When you're looking, don't forget to consider freight/installation, space for the machine, power and air requirements, and money for tooling.

The Tormach is a 220V single phase 20A line. The Haas (TM-1P) needs a 50A line or a 208V 3 Phase @ 30A. The Haas also needs 4 SCFM @ 100psi, not sure if a drier is recommended or not.

The Tormach 1100, stand, and power draw bar ran us almost exactly 12k with freight (add another 2-3K for vises, tooling, misc). If money matters, I can't see justifying a TM-1P for triple the price, unless you're considering running production on the machine or something like that. The extra HP, spindle, rigidity, etc is nice - but it's not like we're cutting stainless in production where time is money. The table travel is really the biggest plus, but that really only comes into play for machining frame rails, or squeezing more parts on a fixture plate.

Re: Beginner CNC Mill Comparison
 

I find myself in a similar position to the OP. I have been given the OK to put in for a new machine. We currently have the Prolight 1000 which is great for my CIM class but not a whole lot more than that. We also have an old Bridgeport with a ProtoTRACK Plus 2 axis mill which was donated to the school and has suited us well for the past 6 years. Unfortunately this past year the Y-reader and scale went bad and I have had a hard time finding someplace to repair it. (I will get it done before build season starts.) This has alerted the school that it is time to upgrade our shop. We do have limited funds to spend so the question I have is would I rather get the Tormach (or other similar machine) with all the bells & whistles or a stripped down HAAS, or something else, maybe a new 3 axis Bridgeport? We are a PLTW school so we have Inventor with EdgeCAM so software isn't the question. I have until the end of the month to put in a requisition. Any more insight would be appreciated.

Re: Beginner CNC Mill Comparison
 

One other selling point that may convince a school to go for the HAAS is the fact that it's fully enclosed and has safety interlocks. It's a much safer machine for a school environment where people are learning.

For whatever you get, make sure you have the power for it.

rees2001, I'd be interested in hearing more about your CIM class. It sounds interesting.

Re: Beginner CNC Mill Comparison
 

Straight from the PLTW Website:
Computer Integrated Manufacturing (CIM)
How are things made? What processes go into creating products? Is the process for making a water bottle the same as it is for a musical instrument? How do assembly lines work? How has automation changed the face of manufacturing? While students discover the answers to these questions, they’re learning about the history of manufacturing, robotics and automation, manufacturing processes, computer modeling, manufacturing equipment, and flexible manufacturing systems. This course is designed for 10th, 11th or 12th grade students

From my point of view? Kids get to work with programming VEX, draw in inventor so they can actually make stuff, write G&M code, use CAM software to take a 3-D model and make parts. It's fun to teach.

Re: Beginner CNC Mill Comparison
 

After discussing with the lead teacher, we are now fully considering holding off and purchasing a Haas TM1. Allocating funds to this seems to be the wiser investment.

Again, thanks for the feedback everyone.

Re: Beginner CNC Mill Comparison
 

Will this machine be used in a general shop class or will there be a CNC class?

Re: Beginner CNC Mill Comparison
 

This school has a full Robotics Engineering class focused around FIRST. The usage of the machine wil be taught by local college professors and machinists.

Re: Beginner CNC Mill Comparison
 

When choosing a machine tool be sure to look at the whole picture.
You have mentors that know the machine whom can set up, operate, and program.
If it is a G code machine like Haas you may also need programming software. These machine are very good for complex shapes or high volumes.
Conversational programmed like Hurco and Trak are programmed at the machine. They do not require an off line programming software but you do give up some control over the tool path.
Most conversational machines also include engraving in their software.
One other advantage Trak machines have is they can also be used as a manual machine.

Re: Beginner CNC Mill Comparison
 

We bought a smithy machine last year, unfortunately it was delivered a couple of months after they said they would have it for us, aka right in the middle of build season. Granted they did give us some free tooling and a slight discount to try to compensate for this but the time was already lost. We had a small bench-top Light Machine that did alot that season but thankfully a couple of our sponsors and another local team (233 thanks Mike D.) chipped some machine time and helped us bust out some of the larger parts we needed.

During the off-season we have used it a lot on a prototype a drive train. Over all its a great machine for the price. It works well with Inventor if you purchase the InventorCAM, which is a major plus for us because that's what we do the majority of our work in. I like the cad to cam software a lot as it lets you set up your fixtures as part of the drawing and you can simulate everything before you actually make the part fairly easily. The program also so has really nice Imachining feature that keeps a constant bit pressure and allows it to be really aggressive with the machining. It has a few quirks in it that you will get used to. It defaults to the machine tool table over the one in InventorCAM so make sure they match. Physically its not bad for the price. Beds a nice size the only problem is that when flooding the part with coolant expect puddling to occur in the drip pan which means you need to add more once the process has started. It runs on Linux and support for the whole system is pretty nice. They pretty much get back to you the same day and the people seem pretty knowledgeable. If you connect it to the web they release updates pretty regularly. All in all I am pretty happy with it for the price minus the shipping issue. Once we worked out some of the quirks like which gcode post processor we needed to use its been a great machine and I think it will be a very valuable addition to our lab for this season. Obliviously this will not compete with some of the higher end machines but for the price its great and produce parts in a repeatable manor with except-able FRC tolerances, we have made a couple of gearboxes side-plates with it and they run pretty smooth. If you order it now Do not expect to use it this season as it wont get it in time. Use the off-season and prototype something that you have been wanting to and get used to the machine and by next build you will have a valuable addition to you lab as well.

With what ever machine you get I recommend getting a quick-change system for your tools. It will save you a lot of time once you get into it. That way you wont have to re-zero you machine on the z with every tool change if done right the tool table will compensate for the bit difference and size.

We have this set up and it works pretty well.
http://www.cncmasters.com/pdf/R8Tool_Pgs_90_91.pdf

If you have anymore questions, want pictures, or are going to be in town feel free to ask or pm me.

Beginner CNC Mill Comparison
 

While I can't speak as to the purchasing of the equipment we use (our major sponsor, SAIT, is the owner), I can say that learning CNC machining on high end machines is a ton of fun. Having almost no restrictions on what a team can build in-house is incredible. The higher-end machines and software are beneficial to the students in the long run as well, as the equipment they're familiar working on is essentially what they'd be using in industry, potentially later in life. So, if you have any possible way of affording it, HAAS machines with Solidworks and MasterCam works beautifully and is well worth the investment.

Re: Beginner CNC Mill Comparison
 

For what it is worth-

1771 used the MicroKinetics mill.

We loved it, the only problems we really encountered was it had a smaller travel axis than we would have liked.

Although we didn't make super detailed parts, it served us well for various projects, both robotics and school projects.